160 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvanpyxie]

Basically learning the defect.

I have 10 toes... If i give birth to a child with 11 toes can i learn about her birth defect and grow an extra toe? I always wanted an extra toe, but i find it unlikely.

Sorry, i felt it had to be said, and i really have always wanted that extra toe.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 06 août 2011 - 07:05 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

And remember the days when you just slap omnigel on everything?

[littlezack]

Ace of Dawn wrote...

littlezack wrote...

Ace of Dawn wrote...

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

Right, so, basically... You mentioned Ardat-Yakshi in connection to Reave, despite the fact it holds no real relevance to Samara as she isn't an Ardat-Yakshi?

Yet you agree it holds no real explained logic for Samara to be able to drain her enemy's life-force with Reave?

That might explain why i got confused. Right then. Carry on my good man/woman/child!

In a way, yes. The issue is that the OP (I think) wants things deeply rooted with lore, while I am much more relaxed with it. I feel that Reave, as a power, makes sense because it's something Ardat-Yakshi are established to do.

In much the same way, Dominate is something Morinth is capable of doing in some way because she is capable of doing so (Liara was able to meld with you and "read your mind" in ME1, so dominate isn't *too* out there). Their long distance ability is sake for convenience, since realistically having the user be right next to the target would be next to impossible. And Shepard's usage of it is in line with a Soldier class using biotics, it's a bonus power, not a realistic one.

The powers themselves don't bug me so much as Samara herself having Reave. She's not an Ardat-Yakshi, and really has no reason to be capable of doing that.

Well, here's how I see it - we know that Ardat-Yakshi's can't mate normally; the overpower the mate and kill them. We also know that normal Asari don't do that...but we don't know if it's because of simply being incapable or not. For instance, as I said, Samara is old and skill, and having three Ardat's as children undoubtedly means she knows quite a bit about them and how they work Is it impossible to accept that Samara could train herself to affect people in a similar way? Basically learning the defect.

I think it's an interesting thing to explore. The asari mind-meld thing isn't touched on too much.

Certainly not impossible to accept. Since it's genetic, she may even have a "lighter" version of what they are doing. It just irked me a little because all the other bonus powers didn't really require you to wonder why they knew it. They were all simplistic in some way, then Samara comes in with Reave, and you're left wondering how...

It woulld actually help explain why the Asari are so universally adament about not letting Ardat Yakshi's become common knowledge among other races. I'd imagine if people starting learning it was concievably possible for Asari to kill people through mating, that would cause...problems.

[Ace of Dawn]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

And remember the days when you just slap omnigel on everything?

That security upgrade made a lot of people unhappy.

[SynheKatze]

And here I thought gameplay was supposed to be the most important part of a videogame, yet BSN has proven me wrong... again!

Does it really matter if a power is 'off the lore' while it's still able to provide build variety and different ways to face obstacles ingame?

[littlezack]

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

Basically learning the defect.

I have 10 toes... If i give birth to a child with 11 toes can i learn about her birth defect and grow an extra toe? I always wanted an extra toe, but i find it unlikely.

Sorry, i felt it had to be said, and i really have always wanted that extra toe.

Some people are born blind. Does that means it's impossible for a person who's not born blind to become blind?

It's not all that simple.

[Sashimi_taco]

SynheKatze wrote...

And here I thought gameplay was supposed to be the most important part of a videogame, yet BSN has proven me wrong... again!

Does it really matter if a power is 'off the lore' while it's still able to provide build variety and different ways to face obstacles ingame?

No, we have to keep our very strict rules to which my fantasy world works by. Nevermind people bringing up points that might let the powers work, no people want a realistic fantasy world dammit. 

[Ace of Dawn]

SynheKatze wrote...

And here I thought gameplay was supposed to be the most important part of a videogame, yet BSN has proven me wrong... again!

Does it really matter if a power is 'off the lore' while it's still able to provide build variety and different ways to face obstacles ingame?

Ah, but isn't that the question?

Some people really like how immersive and plausible some universes can be, and other simply play games to have fun. Doing the former often times steps on the toes of those who merely want to enjoy the game and story.

It does matter to many people. I personally like how things are justified in-unverse, or the felxibility in being able to justify them. Others merely wish things to be a bit more consistent and less vague in function.

It comes down to how people like enjoying games. Honestly, I would love it if Bioware properly justified their functions so they weren't ambiguously magic/technology. Wouldn't hurt the story, but enhance it.

[Sylvanpyxie]

"It's not all that simple."

I find loss of senses is hardly the same as frying your lover's insides when mating. Senses are open to common attack, for one. Genetic make-up isn't.

However if Samara was able to "learn the defect" would that not also make her open to the same corruption that Morinth suffered? The same addiction?

And i'd like to make sure you know i'm not attacking any theories here, i love reading other people opinions on these things, opinions are just more fun when challenged. In my opinion.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 06 août 2011 - 07:15 .

[Ace of Dawn]

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

I find loss of senses is hardly the same as frying your lover's insides when mating. Senses are open to common attack, for one. Genetic make-up, isn't.

However if Samara was able to "learn the defect" would that not also make her open to the same corruption that Morinth suffered? The same addiction?

That may very well be up to the personality and justification than the addiction. Morinth did not want to isolate herself like her sisters. She chose to rebel, as she always had done.

If, for whatever reason, Samara was capable of doing the same thing as her daughters, she is also a justicar. Her personality and strong will would make it harder for the addiction to overcome her. And in the end... she'd be using the ability on those that she would kill anyway.

[Nashiktal]

Exactly. Its internal consistency. Its all about following the general feel of the universe as established. FTL is something that is usually granted in most sci-fi, because without it the universe established would be impossible, and allows the story to be told.

It would kindof be like allowing shep to fly out of nowhere with little explanation. Would it be fun? Possibly, but it is also so ridiculous that it would pull you out of the story. Which is what Bioware games are about, the story being told.

If the story does not have an internal consistency, suspension of belief falls apart. Even stories about fantastical things and places have an internal logic going on. Why do you think fan wars erupt all the time about lore?

[Sylvanpyxie]

Personality might be a factor.

But the only one of Samara's daughters that continued to kill was the one that was faced with temptation every day, as appose to the other two daughters who, as far as we know, cut themselves off from every form of sexual temptation there is.

There's three junkies, two go to rehab, one refuses.. It's obvious that the addiction in that one will grow uncontrollable especially since she has no one to control her.

If Samara did get the same addiction, she would be open to temptation, no matter how strong willed she is, the drug would be there, she would be tempted and eventually temptation would win.

In my opinion.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 06 août 2011 - 07:22 .

[SynheKatze]

Ace of Dawn wrote...

SynheKatze wrote...

And here I thought gameplay was supposed to be the most important part of a videogame, yet BSN has proven me wrong... again!

Does it really matter if a power is 'off the lore' while it's still able to provide build variety and different ways to face obstacles ingame?

Ah, but isn't that the question?

Some people really like how immersive and plausible some universes can be, and other simply play games to have fun. Doing the former often times steps on the toes of those who merely want to enjoy the game and story.

It does matter to many people. I personally like how things are justified in-unverse, or the felxibility in being able to justify them. Others merely wish things to be a bit more consistent and less vague in function.

It comes down to how people like enjoying games. Honestly, I would love it if Bioware properly justified their functions so they weren't ambiguously magic/technology. Wouldn't hurt the story, but enhance it.

Well, what can we tell for certain that those power are gameplay 'licenses' advocating for variety and replayability. I wouldn't even start wondering how do they work, they're not something related to the lore but to the gameplay itself. They merely exist  to provide entertainment.

Now, would it be better if they were explained lore-wise? Of course!, but not to the extent of priorizing the lore to the gameplay flexibility, making it less varied and poorer. That's why I have problems with people that want them to be removed, they might not fit said lore, but they're useful tools capable of enriching the gameplay and the experience as a whole.

Do these guys want a more restricted game? Seriously?

Modifié par SynheKatze, 06 août 2011 - 07:24 .

[Nashiktal]

SynheKatze wrote...

Ace of Dawn wrote...

SynheKatze wrote...

And here I thought gameplay was supposed to be the most important part of a videogame, yet BSN has proven me wrong... again!

Does it really matter if a power is 'off the lore' while it's still able to provide build variety and different ways to face obstacles ingame?

Ah, but isn't that the question?

Some people really like how immersive and plausible some universes can be, and other simply play games to have fun. Doing the former often times steps on the toes of those who merely want to enjoy the game and story.

It does matter to many people. I personally like how things are justified in-unverse, or the felxibility in being able to justify them. Others merely wish things to be a bit more consistent and less vague in function.

It comes down to how people like enjoying games. Honestly, I would love it if Bioware properly justified their functions so they weren't ambiguously magic/technology. Wouldn't hurt the story, but enhance it.

Well, what can we tell for certain that those power are gameplay 'licenses' advocating for variety and replayability. I wouldn't even start wondering how do they work, they're not something related to the lore but to the gameplay itself. They merely exist  to provide entertainment.

Now, would it be better if they were explained lore-wise? Of course!, but not to the extent of priorizing the lore to the gameplay flexibility, making it less varied and poorer. That's why I have problems with people that want them to be removed, they might not fit said lore, but they're useful tools capable of enriching the gameplay and the experience as a hole.

Do these guys want a more restricted game? Seriously?

Restrictions breed creativity. 

Of course having said that, biotics as shown in game already break the codex and lore.

[Ace of Dawn]

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

Personality might be a factor.

But the only one of Samara's daughters that continued to kill, was the one that was faced with temptation every day, as appose to the other two daughters who, as far as we know, cut themselves off from every form of sexual temptation there is.

There's three junkies, two go to rehab, one refuses.. It's obvious that the addiction in that one will grow uncontrollable. If Samara did get the same addiction, she would be open to temptation, no matter how strong willed she is, the drug would be there, she would be tempted and eventually temptation would win.

In my opinion.

Indeed. Either Samara described it as an addiction merely out of fear of it, it isn't a hugely serious one but an addiction none the less (I would claim I am addicted to Pepsi. I do not suffer withdrawals, function quite clearly, and don't require it every second of every day. But I do drink a lot of it and tend to buy it over things I would actually need), or Samara is actually the most evil character in the universe and uses the ability in some capacity whenever she kills the wicked.

[SynheKatze]

Nashiktal wrote...

SynheKatze wrote...

Ace of Dawn wrote...

SynheKatze wrote...

And here I thought gameplay was supposed to be the most important part of a videogame, yet BSN has proven me wrong... again!

Does it really matter if a power is 'off the lore' while it's still able to provide build variety and different ways to face obstacles ingame?

Ah, but isn't that the question?

Some people really like how immersive and plausible some universes can be, and other simply play games to have fun. Doing the former often times steps on the toes of those who merely want to enjoy the game and story.

It does matter to many people. I personally like how things are justified in-unverse, or the felxibility in being able to justify them. Others merely wish things to be a bit more consistent and less vague in function.

It comes down to how people like enjoying games. Honestly, I would love it if Bioware properly justified their functions so they weren't ambiguously magic/technology. Wouldn't hurt the story, but enhance it.

Well, what can we tell for certain that those power are gameplay 'licenses' advocating for variety and replayability. I wouldn't even start wondering how do they work, they're not something related to the lore but to the gameplay itself. They merely exist  to provide entertainment.

Now, would it be better if they were explained lore-wise? Of course!, but not to the extent of priorizing the lore to the gameplay flexibility, making it less varied and poorer. That's why I have problems with people that want them to be removed, they might not fit said lore, but they're useful tools capable of enriching the gameplay and the experience as a hole.

Do these guys want a more restricted game? Seriously?

Restrictions breed creativity. 

Of course having said that, biotics as shown in game already break the codex and lore.

That just makes the creation of certain conditions more believable, as 'fields' to work into. But in the end the less ways to explore the more potential results you'll end up losing.

[celuloid]

I never understood dominate, Morinth is supposed to get her victims by charm, not some bad voodoo magic. This is probably another case when gameplay designers went like: "We wanna have Hacking for Organics, lets get creative with the lore". And it turned out badly again.

Modifié par celuloid, 06 août 2011 - 07:38 .

[Sashimi_taco]

celuloid wrote...

I never understood dominate, Morinth is supposed to get her victims by charm, not some bad voodoo magic. This is probably another case when gameplay designers went like: "We wanna have Hacking for Organics, lets get creative with the lore". And it turned out badly again.

It is still a fun power. But what does fun matter in a game anyway?

[Nashiktal]

Sashimi_taco wrote...

celuloid wrote...

I never understood dominate, Morinth is supposed to get her victims by charm, not some bad voodoo magic. This is probably another case when gameplay designers went like: "We wanna have Hacking for Organics, lets get creative with the lore". And it turned out badly again.

It is still a fun power. But what does fun matter in a game anyway?

So we can't have fun AND internal consistency? 

If you want a game thats just about pure "fun", grab a game like Saints Row, or other such games. Bioware games are supposed to be about the story, thats what they constantly pride themselves about, and thats what they usually try to sell.

Its not that games can't be fun (thats the point of games) but you are forgetting the different types of fun that define the genre's. 

For example, deadspace plays upon those who enjoy horror and the rush of adrenalin, LA Noir plays upon those who like mysteries, portal plays upon those who like puzzles, and you know what? They all do so with a consistent story and universe. 

[CuseGirl]

I see no problem with Dominate. I worked very hard to recruit Morinth. Plus, if I can shoot "biotic" spheres of energy out of my hands and "snap freeze" charging Krogans, I think we can all suspend our beliefs to include Asari Mind Control.

[Someone With Mass]

I'm just seeing the bonus power as just that. A bonus power.

Thinking too hard about it gets you nowhere.

[Ieldra]

For those who say that internal consistency doesn't matter: Why do you think was there such an outcry when the "midichlorians" appeared in Star Wars Episode 1? It was because the mystique of the Force was such an important element of the universe, and a science-y explanation destroyed and demythologized it. People didn't want that. They wanted that "Fantasy in Space" feeling with good vs. evil and all that. The explanation was alien to the genre, and whoever put that in didn't realize that Star Wars isnt science fiction.

I feel the same with regard to fantasy-like powers like Reave and Dominate in the ME universe. They really shouldn't exist. I'm sure the game designers could come up with other cool powers that don't break the feel of the universe. And while I'm at it, biotic and tech effects should travel at light speed and in a straight line.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 août 2011 - 08:55 .

[Someone With Mass]

Then why doesn't Shepard run out of juice after using biotic powers about five times, or falls into a light coma after overusing medi-gel? Or why isn't the Normandy forced to discharge the core?

Yeah, because that would be a little too close to the lore and not so fun to witness in the game all the time.

Ask yourself: Was it entertaining being forced to refuel the Normandy all the time?

[Ace of Dawn]

Ieldra2 wrote...

For those who say that internal consistency doesn't matter: Why do you think was there such an outcry when the "midichlorians" appeared in Star Wars Episode 1? It was because the mystique of the Force was such an important element of the universe, and a science-y explanation destroyed and demythologized it. People didn't want that. They wanted that "Fantasy in Space" feeling with good vs. evil and all that. The explanation was alien to the genre, and whoever put that in didn't realize that Star Wars isnt science fiction.

I feel the same with regard to fantasy-like powers like Reave and Dominate in the ME universe. They really shouldn't exist. I'm sure the game designers could come up with other cool powers that don't break the feel of the universe. And while I'm at it, biotic and tech effects should travel at light speed and in a straight line.

Just to point out, the "mystique" of it wasn't lost, expanded upon. The force is still mysterious and mystical, it's just that the midichlorians were able to detect it, and through them, we can detect it, too. Just an extra step.

[Sashimi_taco]

Ieldra2 wrote...

For those who say that internal consistency doesn't matter: Why do you think was there such an outcry when the "midichlorians" appeared in Star Wars Episode 1? It was because the mystique of the Force was such an important element of the universe, and a science-y explanation destroyed and demythologized it. People didn't want that. They wanted that "Fantasy in Space" feeling with good vs. evil and all that. The explanation was alien to the genre, and whoever put that in didn't realize that Star Wars isnt science fiction.

I feel the same with regard to fantasy-like powers like Reave and Dominate in the ME universe. They really shouldn't exist. I'm sure the game designers could come up with other cool powers that don't break the feel of the universe. And while I'm at it, biotic and tech effects should travel at light speed and in a straight line.

Then don't use the power or train your shepard to use it. Then to you, it doesn't even exist. 

To me it makes sense within the rules of the universe so I use it, and i understand to you it doesn't. So just ignore it. Just like how people who don't want to have a s/s relationship can simply ignore that option and it doesn't exist to them in thier universe.