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[Rez275]

Really crazy theory and I am sure there are probably holes and leaps of logic, but as of legacy, and many other things that I felt were implied or perhaps teasing at certain details throughout both games. Anyways I am not explicitly looking for reasons why it would or would not work so much as opinions and theories from others.

Also, I pre-emptively apologize for the large amount of text.


Perhaps there were really 9 old gods, to parallel the 9 of the elven pantheon...and that they were in fact the forgotten ones that the elven pantheon supposedly fought.

What if Dumat found out Fen'Harel's plan and disposed of him, then expounded on his plan by incapacitating/destroying the elven gods...costing the elves their immortality, and then at the height of his victory betrayed and trapped his brethren and installed himself as the only true god and now rules under the identity of The Maker?

Maybe Dumat was not really the first Archdemon? What if there was
another, nameless old god that was killed while mistaken for him, after
all...really only Magisters presumably, and other gods would be able to
tell the difference.

The result being that Fen"Harel is falsely believed to be still active, Dumat is "officially" dead and the number of Old Gods is incorrect but reported widely as true.


At the same time, he is spreading his religion and its practices, which
fears and mistreats mages, those who at the absolute height of their
power, may have the ability to breach his realm. In fearing such a
possibility, he took initiative by setting a trap and calling them to
the black city.

The darkspawn are created and possibly are intentionally drawn to the slumbering old gods. He is slowly but surely destroying what remains of his kind who could remember his betrayal by driving them insane and then making them into an enemy the world can see and permanently destroy.

And Flemeth, is perhaps the only one that somehow escaped the fate of the others and is now walking the world, manipulating it, and trying to restore what other old gods she can to one day build an army (foreshadowing from Morrigan army from the trailer?) that could strike back at Dumat for his treachery.

Modifié par Rez275, 24 septembre 2011 - 01:08 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Just to ensure that I follow - the "he" of your third paragraph is the maker, right? What exactly was Fen'Harel's plan that he then discovered?

I don't know that Fen'Harel is out of the picture just yet. As an entity that can cross between the old gods and forgotten ones, he seems too powerful or wily to be captured/vanquished/etc. So too, I don't know that the maker is consciously spreading his religion as we know it - I think the Maker is indeed an older god but one who has been conveniently repackaged by man. I don't know that the blight/taint is a slow torture - seems to me that if you're ultra powerful, you'd just lay waste to your enemies right away, especially if there is the possibility they can still gain power, as with mages.

I think there is definitely something at work - something being prepared for, especially by Flemeth. It's not that I blatantly disagree with anything you have theorized - but it all begs additional questions. There are a couple of existing threads that touch upon some of these points and others - needless to say, there are more questions than answers right now.

[jlb524]

I also believe that the Old Gods = The Forgotten Ones in elven lore. I also think that they are imprisoned in the 'Black City' (which they corrupted) and possibly lured their followers (the Tevinter mages) there in hopes to free them (and that went all kinds of wrong).

The Creators are? The humans never had a group of deities that corresponded to them (afaik). I still think that there are Creators and they are imprisoned in another city...The 'Golden' City....but they don't try to trick mortals into helping them b/c they are 'nice'.

I think Fen'Harel is the Maker. It makes sense going by elven lore...he/she/it would be the only god like being left if the others are imprisoned.

Modifié par jlb524, 06 août 2011 - 04:25 .

[whykikyouwhy]

One more thing, if I may. The "army of Morrigans" - metaphoric. I think that's all a nod to the legions of daughters Flemeth has. They may not all look like Morrigan (they should though, but my...brain would explode). Part of the Witch of the Wilds legacy is that Flemeth and her daugthers prey upon anyone foolhardy enough to wander into the Kocari Wilds.

Of course, dragons produce multiple offspring per birthing cycle...

[jlb524]

I don't believe that Flemeth needs daughters to possess to stay alive, though (hello amulet).

Morrigan was trolled and so was the Warden XD

[whykikyouwhy]

I don't think the daughters are for any sort of longevity on her part. Unless she intends to use them as cannon fodder - that distraction in a battle. Send the wall of Morrigan-mages in first and then attack from the side?

[Rez275]

By he I meant Dumat, in light of him apparently being still active in Legacy. They say he was the most powerful of the old gods, and I would imagine one with such power in the end would not like to share it. For him perhaps, there could be no dominion as long as others would vie for and gain the adulation of mortals.

In summation, my theory is that:

There were 9 old gods and 9 elven gods

they were at war with one another in primeval stage of existence

Fen"Harel plans to otherthrow both the old gods and the elven gods

Dumat conspires with Fen"Harel at first, and then betrays him and everyone else.

Flemeth somehow escapes the fate of the others and lies low.

He senses his brethren calling out to the Magisters, and calls out to them as well, luring them to the black city and lies to Corypheus promising a golden city, which could possibly exist but lies elsewhere .

The magisters become Darkspawn, and he causes them to seek out and corrupt the other gods. And then invents the Maker, and seeds the lie that the first Archdemon is Dumat.

Causes his religion to spread and shackles the mages with mistrust and fear, keeping their power in check so that nobody could ever reach him.

[whykikyouwhy]

Well, that would certainly put a new literal spin to the "God of Silence" moniker. Silence the mages, silence the magic, etc.

According to the wiki though, Dumat taught blood magic to one of the Tevinters. So if that is true, and not Chantry propaganda (which, by your theory, would be Dumat's own weaving of lies), and given your theories above, then Dumat is trying to supress the power of the descendents of those he taught - the master supressing the students. That might be valid in a whole "thou shalt not ever exceed me" sort of way.

So then, who/what created the Golden City (or the Black City - depending on if you think they are one in the same or two separate things)? If Dumat is the Maker, are you saying he did indeed create it? And if so, was it intended to be a "heaven" for man?

[Ghost1041]

Just a little thought about flemmeth. She wanted to be smuggled into Kirkwall because she did not want to be followed. Now who in Thedas would want to follow flemmeth? Something powerful enough for her to go into hiding?

[Rez275]

I believe that the golden city may exist, but possibly was not necessarily created by him. I think it may have at one point, been either the home/fortress/font of power for the old gods or the elven pantheon but was claimed after the betrayal.

Or perhaps may very well have been what they were all fighting over during their war, and that it might have been a primeval anchor so to speak, something that has always existed, and grew a physical form around it over time....a left over perhaps from the beginning of creation which to them would be similar to the tree of knowledge/garden of eden in our religion.

In regards to Dumat and his teaching, I am slightly divided on that issue. It could be that he told them only as much as he needed them to know, or something else entirely.

The old gods that were legitimately calling out to the magisters for aid are supposed to be in a form of slumber, their ability to communicate may be greatly weakened because of it and they were able to teach the magisters magic through feelings and not so much actual communication, similar to how the Arcane Warrior taught us their trade.

Dumat, who going from my theory would have been wide awake, would have been able to obviously communicate in a much more direct way, and caught on to what his kin were attempting and told them to associate his commands with the slumbering old god.

The black city, I believe could have been either a trap created specifically to corrupt the magisters, or it could have been the old gods' failed attempt at emulating the original which conveniently produced that side effect.

[whykikyouwhy]

Ghost1041 wrote...

Just a little thought about flemmeth. She wanted to be smuggled into Kirkwall because she did not want to be followed. Now who in Thedas would want to follow flemmeth? Something powerful enough for her to go into hiding?

I think Flemeth's goal was to secure her essence for security purposes because she knew that Morrigan was going to move against her. Morrigan convinces the Warden to get the grimoire from Flemeth - Flemeth knew this was going to happen (maybe not the exact thing) and figured that an attempt would be made to kill her. So I think the amulet is less about hiding and more about tucking away a piece of herself so that she could be whole again.

Rez275 wrote...

I believe that the golden city may exist, but possibly was not necessarily created by him. I think it may have at one point, been either the home/fortress/font of power for the old gods or the elven pantheon but was claimed after the betrayal.

Or perhaps may very well have been what they were all fighting over during their war, and that it might have been a primeval anchor so to speak, something that has always existed, and grew a physical form around it over time....a left over perhaps from the beginning of creation which to them would be similar to the tree of knowledge/garden of eden in our religion.

In regards to Dumat and his teaching, I am slightly divided on that issue. It could be that he told them only as much as he needed them to know, or something else entirely.

The old gods that were legitimately calling out to the magisters for aid are supposed to be in a form of slumber, their ability to communicate may be greatly weakened because of it and they were able to teach the magisters magic through feelings and not so much actual communication, similar to how the Arcane Warrior taught us their trade.

Dumat, who going from my theory would have been wide awake, would have been able to obviously communicate in a much more direct way, and caught on to what his kin were attempting and told them to associate his commands with the slumbering old god.

The black city, I believe could have been either a trap created specifically to corrupt the magisters, or it could have been the old gods' failed attempt at emulating the original which conveniently produced that side effect.

I think you have some interesting points, but that duplicity seems to be more akin to Fen'Harel, or what we know of him. It's all very devious, very impish and insidious. Very indicative of the Trickster.

[Rez275]

Indeed I acknowledge the duplicitous nature of Fen'Harel, however despite lack of information, I at the same time don't get a sense of him possessing such a level of raw ambition. The trickster, another victim of treachery at the hands of one whose pursuit of power and dominion knows no bounds.

I suppose one could equally say the same of Dumat due to lack of characterization however his title and apparent nature as an old god has always given me that sense. The dragon of silence, and most powerful of the old gods.

When one has great power, they often seek even more of it, or refuse to share it. I could see his goal in the end being to conquer all nations, break all usurpers, subjugate all people, cover all faces, silence all voices, and to ensure the old ways are forgotten and only his truth remains.



I acknowledge however that many things would completely throw my theory out.

For one, it is not known whether the elven pantheon is real or not, and if they are not real it throws that part of it out.

Second, if there really are only 7 old gods, it throws it out as well.

Third, if the maker is in fact real or fake, that ends that portion of it.

Fourth, if the golden/black city are one and the same, or are both false that throws them out.

Fifth, Dumat is truly dead, or Fen'Harel has no relation at all to him it breaks it also.

I am sure there are more, I simply find the idea of a mythic, multi game spanning, antagonst hiding behind a mask with good publicity....intriguing.

Modifié par Rez275, 24 septembre 2011 - 01:11 .

[Rez275]

bump.

edited thread name to be more concise

I would like to see some more ideas, discussion, and theories.

[Gervaise]

Assuming the writers are not leading us totally "up the garden path" and then are going to dump some completely different resolution to the problem, I guess the first challenge is to distinguish between what is actually known from what is taught.  By this I mean the story of Fen'harel is something that the Dalish elves use to explain why their gods abandoned them but unless Fen'harel actually spoke to a Dalish in their dreams and told them this is what he did, I must assume it is not a definite fact.   Andraste falls into middle ground because if the being she spoke with was actually what it claimed to be, then the Chant of Light is fact - otherwise there may be contradictions with what actually occurred.

What we do know:
1) Both humans and elves believe they have been abandoned at some stage by the gods they worshipped.  With the elves it is believed this was around the time the Tevinter Imperium rose to power and destroyed Arlathan.  With the humans it is somewhat later during the time of the First Blight when their chief Deity, Dumat, attacked them and their other deities failed to come to their aid.

2) The old gods of the Imperium spoke to the Magisters, presumably through their dreams.  Dumat taught them blood magic.

3) The elves also believe their gods taught them various skills.  Interestingly this does not include magic because they claim that originally all elves could do magic - this seems to contradict the assertion of some sources (probably originating in the Chantry) that it was the elves who taught the humans blood magic.   They also believed in a second set of gods, known as the Forgotten Ones - who were evil counterparts to the elven gods which is presumably why they are "forgotten".

4) There is an alternate reality called the Fade that exists alongside the material world.  It is inhabited by spirits that can make contact with mortals through their dreams, particularly mages.  This contact is connected to their emotions - the more hightened the emotion the easier it is for the spirit/demon to make contact (even when the person is awake).   When spirits tap into these emotions they can manipulate the mind of the person and even totally take it over.  If the pull is strong enough it would appear to allow the spirit to use the person to cross over into the material world.

5) Andraste claims that these spirits were the Maker's first children and made in his image - thus the Maker must be some sort of powerful spirit.  She also stated that mortals were his second children and given a spark of the divine within them - their ability to create and dream.   This would allow them to shape the world they inhabited and also to return to him each night when they slept.

From the above I would surmise that any alleged deities are spirits that contact mortals through their dreams and emotions.   It could well be possible that the Maker and the elven deities are one and the same, the latter being aspects of the central spirit that communicate with individuals about whatever is their particular interest.  However, it could also be that the elven spirits are contrary to the Maker's intentions.   Leaving aside Chantry prejudices I am more inclined to the former as the Chant of Light seems to being making specific reference to the human deities in condeming the children for turning away and there is no evidence that Andraste had any problem with elven beliefs, even though it would seem that Shartan's elves did still cling to their old allegiences.   That being the case, I would suggest that the old gods of the Tevinter Imperium were the Forgotten Ones and this is why they took up the human cause and ensured the complete destruction of the old elven kingdoms.   At some point after the initial rise of the Tevinter, elves may have been encouraged by a spirit (Fen'harel?) to resort to the same magic that was being used against them - blood magic - and this caused their abandonment by the elven gods/Maker.   So instead of saving them, Fen'harel condemned them to slavery.  

After Andraste's death, Maferath kept her promise to the elves and granted them their own land.  The land itself was not particularly good, being in a rain shadow, but this would not matter to the elves as their traditional lifestyle was one of hunting and herding rather than arable farming.  However it was strategically important as any hostile move by the northern human realms would have to go through the Dales and over the Frostbacks beford it could reach the Almarri homeland (now Ferelden).  The elves resumed their worship of the elven gods and everything went well until the rise of Orlais, when their strategically important location made them a target of expansionism.   When they successfully struck back against this, the Chantry stepped in to save their founding nation, Orlais.  Ironically it was the elves adherance to their old polytheistic faith that was used as the excuse for the Exalted March that would ensure that no one else stepped in to help them and in fact other nations might be encouraged to send assistance to Orlais.

According to the Chant of Light when mortals once again accept the Maker, he will return and heal the hurts of the world.  The Chant of Light includes a moral code that very few nations actually adhere to.  Therefore, whilst the Maker may actually help the occasional individual, at present it is unlikely the Spirit will intervene on a world wide basis for the Chant also teaches that he wishes mortals to be free either to accept him or damn themselves.

What Thedas needs is a new prophet to point out these salient truths to them,    (That is my interpetation anyway = apologies for the lengthy post)

[Gervaise]

Sorry I forgot about the First Blight. There would seem there is a definite connection between the Tevinter Magisters and the Dark Spawn that would suggest they are in some way connected to the emergence of this scourge. It may be that the old gods were trapped in some way and were trying to achieve their freedom by encouraging the Magisters to interact physically with the Fade. The Magisters may well have been seeking immortality by taking this route. This was against the basic natural laws that control the relationship between the material and the spiritual and this in itself could have cause the corruption of both sides. Whatever the case, something clearly went badly wrong and whilst the original Magisters do appear to have achieved an immortality of sorts, it is not the kind they originally intended. The old gods have also not been freed in the way they wished. However, there is the possibility that one of them may have done so independently and this is the being known as Flemeth. Then again she may be an embodiment of Fen'harel or even some completely different powerful Fade spirit that has crossed over into the material world. Was is clear is that she is definitely up to something and we haven't seen the last of her - may be in DA3 we will discover who she was going to meet when she left Hawke.

[aries1001]

Didn't we at one time dicuss (or many times ) that the Black City/Golden City could possibly be Arlathan, the Elven City that was/is supposed to be sunk into the ground. This means it doesn't exist in our realm anymore but it could still exist in the fade, though.

As for the OP's theroy it is an intriguing one and one that I sort of support. It makes sense, logically....then again, things in the DA universe doesn't seem logical now, do they....

[Rez275]

Much of the confusion I think stems from how little we know, both us the players, and the actual characters in-game. Much of it is left to opinion or theory...with little tid bits and revelations scattered about and never fully confirmed. Myths and legends are hinted at being a farcry of what is told, but still ingrained with a bit of truth at the heart of it, or at times an outright farce.

In the end, despite how inherently fun it is to come up with such things, I would like it if they eventually funneled in more and more confirmed truth for us to digest and dissect compared to what we have bee given thus far.

Granted my theory is a bit bleak, and kind of paints the "Maker" into being the series wide antagonist who has been in power long before the game...but I at least think it interesting.

[Cobra's_back]

I only found refernce to 7 old gods.
The Seven Old Gods

The Magisters worshipped seven Old Gods. The first—and the leader of the others—was called Dumat, the Dragon of Silence. According to scholars, Dumat was the first Old God to transform into an archdemon and consequently slain during the First Blight.
■ Dumat, the Dragon of Silence and the archdemon of the First Blight
■ Zazikel, the Dragon of Chaos and the archdemon of the Second Blight
■ Toth, the Dragon of Fire and the archdemon of the Third Blight
■ Andoral, the Dragon of Slaves and the archdemon of the Fourth Blight
■ Urthemiel, the Dragon of Beauty and the archdemon of the Fifth Blight
■ Razikale, the Dragon of Mystery
■ Lusacan, the Dragon of Night
I'm missing something. Why think there were 9? I would like to find stuff on these Gods. It makes Dragon Age interesting.

[T3H Fish]

 Figured I throw in my two coppers to this discussion.
I agree with the theoy there's a connection between the Old Gods and the Dalish Pantheon, namely with the Forgotten Ones. After playing the game, lurking the forums, and browsing the wiki, I've pieced my own theories together about the tangled thread of connections with the deties.

1. I beleive the Forgotten Ones are the Old Gods. There's no specified number of them ever mentioned in what little Dalish lore that exists (at least from what I've been able to find.) I also find it peculiar that in what that DOES exist, nothing seems to describe them in detail, though this could be done on purpose just to make them scarier.

2. The Old Gods and Dalish Gods have no actual 'godhood.' The elves once possessed the knowledge of immortality and could live for an infinite number of years, if they so chose to. Perhaps the Dalish Pantheon were just extremely gifted individuals that chose to live past what was considered a 'normal life span' for the Dalish back in those days. The Forgotten Ones/Old Gods are likely very ancient and powerful dragons. There's no information on just how long a dragon can live for and it's pretty clear they are very sentient and possess their own magical potential in the form of blood magic. Though the in-gam model is misleading, the concept art suggests the Old God/Archdemon is likely at least 3 times larger than a High Dragon. At least. There's also nothing (that I could find) that specifys WHEN the Old Gods were sealed in their under-ground vaults.

3. I've seen this theory and I'm finding myself agreeing with it, that the Fade and Thedas are connected in some way. Every trip to the Fade, with some exceptions, have shown a world twisted and fragmented, along with broken buildings and structures. The two were probably connected during the time period where magic was so prevalent amongst the world. Mages are aware of it and can even shape it with strong enough will, but even normal people can become aware of the Fade's existence, though in only special or extreme circumstances (i.e. Arl Eamon while he was in his coma.) I think the Fade was 'created' when Fen'Harel tricked the Dalish Pantheon and the Forgotten Ones into seperate realms.

4. The connection between Flemeth and Fen'Harel is a very popular theory and I think there's a lot of merit to what I've seen people say about it. Flemeth's been around for a LONG time and she's proven she's something beyond a normal mage or an Abomination. Fen'Harel is described as the trickster who divided the Dalish Pantheon and the Forgotten Ones from the world for himself. Flemeth's reputation closely mirrors Fen'Harel's and she is a very convincing shapeshifter, a magic only she seems to know and only passes on to her 'daughter'. Both are extremely cunning, ruthless, and dangerous. Flemeth seems to be acutely aware of everything that's going on, but someone is watching her, maybe trying to disrupt her plans or change the rules of the 'game' she's playing with Thedas.

5. The Golden/Black City. I'm not sure what to think of this, but I think the Golden City never really existed in the first place. Corypheus's quote that the Golden City had already been tainted when the magisters first reached it suggests to me that maybe the City was intended to be a prison for something. For the wiki, the Golden/Black City is actually seperated from the rest of the Fade, with no way to reach it. I think the Taint itself was born in this location, then spread to the Magisters, who went about infecting Thedas, eventually infecting the Old Gods and twisting them into Archdemons and giving birth to the Darkspawn and its Blight.

6. Connecting with the theory that Flemeth and Fen'Harel are the same, I think she tricked Andraste into bringing down the Tevinter Imperium. This is a bit of a stretch, but I'm willing to go as far as the idea that Andraste may have been one of Flemeth's daughters, making her even easier to manipulate into doing what she needed to be done. There's also the question of the 'The Search for the True Prophet' book that is giftable to Wynne in Origins. It suggested that Andraste may have been a mage herself, which would easily explain the healing properties of her ashes. Of course it could be argued by the fact that the tomb is located in a lyrium-rich area where the Veil is extremely thin, but that could have just amplified the power already existing within her ashes. Flemeth could have easily posed herself as the Maker and influenced Andraste's decisions.

I think that's all I have for now. I'm aware there's holes in all of these, but they're just rabid-fan theories based on very little information >.<

Feel free to dissect and nit-pick to your heart's content and I apologize if I've repeated anything heard a thousand times already.

Modifié par T3H Fish, 27 septembre 2011 - 12:25 .

[jamesp81]

I think that people read way too much into what Corypheus said in Legacy when it comes to concluding the black city was always black.

[T3H Fish]

jamesp81 wrote...

I think that people read way too much into what Corypheus said in Legacy when it comes to concluding the black city was always black.

Well, there's two 'logical' interpertations to that particular line, if you want to call them logical in the DA universe. Either he's talking about that when he and the other Magisters reached the city, something else had already invaded the Golden City and corrupted it, thereby Tainting them OR he's referring to the exact moment the Golden City became 'tainted' by their intrusion, ending up in the Magisters creating the Taint.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Dalish codexs don't come out and say it explicitly but I think it's implied there are only 3 Forgotten Ones. Or at least, they do know the names of only 3 of them that are mentioned.

[Rez275]

ghostbusters101 wrote...

I only found refernce to 7 old gods.
The Seven Old Gods

The Magisters worshipped seven Old Gods. The first—and the leader of the others—was called Dumat, the Dragon of Silence. According to scholars, Dumat was the first Old God to transform into an archdemon and consequently slain during the First Blight.
■ Dumat, the Dragon of Silence and the archdemon of the First Blight
■ Zazikel, the Dragon of Chaos and the archdemon of the Second Blight
■ Toth, the Dragon of Fire and the archdemon of the Third Blight
■ Andoral, the Dragon of Slaves and the archdemon of the Fourth Blight
■ Urthemiel, the Dragon of Beauty and the archdemon of the Fifth Blight
■ Razikale, the Dragon of Mystery
■ Lusacan, the Dragon of Night
I'm missing something. Why think there were 9? I would like to find stuff on these Gods. It makes Dragon Age interesting.

Well yes, that is why my theory is kind of "out there" as it relies on information that is not there. Under my theory, number 8 is possibly Flemeth...who possibly either escaped or faked her death, with number 9 being unnamed and forgotten, but in the end was killed and believed to be Dumat...when they really weren't.

The reason I went with that is because it keeps the current 6 aside from Dumat wherever they may be, with their numbers lining up with the elven pantheon. As for why I've elevated Dumat, it is because not only was he supposedly the greatest of the old gods and patron of silence, but also in light of his apparently being pleased by the offering given to him in Legacy....long after he is supposed to be dead.

Either the devs made an oopsie, or he is not as dead as the Grey Wardens thought.

[Gervaise]

Something that's never been entirely clear to me is whether the archdemon/warden death destroys the soul entirely or simply sends both into the Fade. If the latter, then Dumat spirit could still be there and able to respond to offerings. Or like Andraste's ashes it could just be that some residual magic was left in the alter which responded.

Alternatively, one of the Wiki entries suggests that none of the Grey Wardens survived the final battle with Dumat. If this is true then clearly it was a pretty traumatic event that resulted in fatal wounds regardless of who struck the final blow. Now if there was no one left who witnessed actual events, it is entirely possible someone could have struck a dark ritual deal with one of the wardens, the warden who actually dealt the killing blow did not die immediately but shortly after from his wounds and no one was left around to query the discrepancy but the grey wardens who came after were just left with records left of how the wardens intended to bring about Dumat's death and assumed this is what had occurred. Morrigan seemed pretty convinced her plan would work - surely her conviction could only come from Flemeth and her assurance came from knowing it had worked before.