987 réponses à ce sujet

[KLUME777]

txgoldrush wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...


hard to use imagination when character is shown standing around emotionless. But no, lets continue a techincal limitation. Instead of following blind WRPG dogma, expand your horizons.

Not hard at all actually. My Warden has far more personality, character and depth than Shepherd and Hawke can ever have. I used my imagination that the game allows for.

And i see those freedoms as far better than being able to give a "rallying" speech *cough* cheezy *cough* or some silly jig. And honestly, i don't buy the voice giving a speech crap. I cringe every time Shepherd gives his/her speech, and i much more prefered the speech you gave in KotOR 2 to the Dantooine militia. And if that doesn't work, then what DAO did was fine, which is using an NPC like Alistair or Anora.

The problem however is DUE TO DAO'S CINEMATIC NATURE, it is much harder to use your imagination.

Contrast with a game like New Vegas in where the protagonist is never shown in conversation. This allows you more to use your imagination. It works better because Fallout games use less cinematic presentation an dmore of a seet he world as the character sees it approach.

Actually, the cinematic nature, along with the writing of the story allowed my Warden to have more personality than the Courier from Fallout: NV (though i love both games equally). As i said, i am imaginitive enough to get past your pitiful constraints.

EDIT: And you keep saying the Warden stares blankly with a blank face. First of all , most of time you only see the Wardens shoulder and don't see their face, because its focused on the NPC you are talking to (this makes sense because it is your character, you are role playing that character), and when you do see thier face, their faces do have emotions on them. Voice acting is not necassarily requred for a face to have emotion on it.

Modifié par KLUME777, 19 août 2011 - 07:22 .

[furryrage59]

txgoldrush wrote...

furryrage59 wrote...

^

Starting to wonder if trolling or believing the delusions being put down.

Because defending Hawke is trolling....right

But lets try to imagine when Bioware prevents us with immersion breaking elements in DAO such as showing the protagonist in conversation as well as giving him a voice in battle....thats not delusional to criticize this.

Not the defending Hawke part, the ridiculou stuff you keep saying about Origins that doesn't make any sense.

Your comment regarding the cinematics as just one example, it literally boggles my mind considering how much it sucked me and many others commenting here in, yet you're declaring that it doesn't and cannot as a matter of fact?

[furryrage59]

[quote]LordKinoda wrote...

[quote]This is patently false. I guarantee that you did not.

The only reason you think you did is because you weren't trying to resolve any detail. You couldn't tell any more than the rest of us what specific questions would be asked or answered by Shepard's or Hawke's lines. You just didn't care, which is why that uncertainty didn't bother you.[/quote]

Riiight. You're going to tell me how I think and how my brain works...


[quote]Bolded - is purely your opinion and isn't a universal truth, not by a very very long shot.[/quote]

Correct. Never said it was a universal truth, it's just my opinion.

[quote]I HATE the wheel and paraphrasing system in dragon age and more often than not he says something that has nothing to do with your options given.[/quote]

Just as this is yours

[quote]Then I made my third Hawke...[/quote]

How wonderfully ironic this statement is. If the voiced character annoys you so, why have MULTIPLE playthroughs ?

[quote]-Furthermore, even if the repetition is the problem, as you say (which, again, conflicts with previous statements from the developers themselves), the paraphrase is a terrible solution. The cure is far worse than the disease. Letting us choose the line produces an unfortunate side-effect, so to fix it they simply remove the choice entirely.[/quote]

Heh, I'm not against them adding an option to toggle paraphrasing if people want it. I just can't see why the hell you would want to read an entire line, then have it read back to you. It's incredibly asinine, but to each his own.

[quote]c) More natural? You mean Hawke inability to investigate in consistent sarcastic or aggresive tone is natural? More like psychotic disorder to me.[/quote]

Know a lot of people who only act and respond with only ONE type of emotion do you ? Doubt it. Everybody has experienced each type of emotion at least once in their life. Happy,sad, depressed, rage, anger, fear, pleasure, etc. No one person responds the same way to EVERYTHING. So yes, it is more natural to have and choose different options. Now the character being psychotic acting is up to you. If you chose a different type of response each chance you had, yes that's crazy. Logically you mostly choose one type of path [e.g. diplomatic] and pepper in some other types of responses for flavor and realism.

[quote]I'm not saying the repetition is good. I'm saying the paraphrase is worse.[/quote]

Since you don't like the repitition either, I guess this next statment is for others. Has anybody who is in favor of reading the line and then having it spoken back to you ever played Tomb Raider: Angel of Darkness ? They did this in that game. It was EXTREMELY annoying.

Is paraphrasing the best option ? Apparently not, with so many people here not able to understand it. But what other suggestion do you have ? Besides making the character silent of course ;P

[quote]e) and many RPGs have every playthrough as the same character, whats the problem with that? The Wardens outside the Origin stories have the same story just as much as Hawke does, there is no real difference, the Warden always defeats the Archdemon.[/quote]

Exactly. The only huge difference are the origin stories. The main plot of the rest in universal.

[quote]Starting to wonder if trolling or believing the delusions being put down.[/quote]

"This person doesn't agree with me, they must be doing it just to annoy me." Seriously ? That's what you basically just said. Nobody should have an opposing opinion to yours ?

[quote]Presentation of dialog options and UI is the only difference. Structurally, dialog "wheels" and "trees" are both trees. That is to say, exactly the same.[/quote]

Serioulsy, cut it out. I got it last time you said it, which was only 1 hr 1/2 before you said it this time, hell it's even on the same page. Yes, technically there is no difference other than their presentation. But one uses voiced dialog, and the other doesn't. So it's easier to just use "tree" and "wheel" for references. How can YOU not see that ? That's the point. Drop it, it adds nothing to the conversations.[/quote]

Bolded -  No, he keeps teling untruths as facts and it was annoying me, so i was wondering if it was on purpose (trolling) or if he actually believed what he was writing (delusion) as fact despite many people saying to the contrary. Nice strawman.

I think it's great to have opposing views and to debate on emotional subjects of interest. But when someone tells me the game that allowed me to immerse myself more than any game in recent memory isn't immersive because it allowed me to roleplay my character, i'm gonna be scratching my head with a frown on my face thinking what on earth is this person talking about. Ironically he says DA:2 is moroeso, opinion, fine ok not fact, which i found not immersive in the slightest because, as i previously said, it felt like an interactive movie with someone elses character, voice and saying stuff i had nothing to do with (MY OPINION).

Hopefully you understand now and we can move forward with the discussion.

[Aradace]

furryrage59 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

furryrage59 wrote...

^

Starting to wonder if trolling or believing the delusions being put down.

Because defending Hawke is trolling....right

But lets try to imagine when Bioware prevents us with immersion breaking elements in DAO such as showing the protagonist in conversation as well as giving him a voice in battle....thats not delusional to criticize this.

Not the defending Hawke part, the ridiculou stuff you keep saying about Origins that doesn't make any sense.

Your comment regarding the cinematics as just one example, it literally boggles my mind considering how much it sucked me and many others commenting here in, yet you're declaring that it doesn't and cannot as a matter of fact?

I can understand how some folks are sucked in by cinematics in Origins.  Myself, personally, was not.  Are the cinematics in Origins superior to those of DA2?  Again, to some, yes.  But not everyone feels the same way.  Again, I personally happened to like almost everything about DA2. (Re-used dungeons and maps are among a handful of complaints I have and yes, I know is not the topic of discussion but Im getting to that lol.)  Is a "stoic" protagonist (I use stoic because completely silent can be argued ad nauseum with symantics) superior to a voiced one?  Once again, to some, it is.  But yet again, not everyone feels the same way.  And in both regards, neither is a universal truth.  Meaning that those saying a stoic protagonist is superior, despite what "irrefutable", evidence they may provide, is now and always will be an opinion.  Same goes for those (like myself) who feel a fully voiced protagonist is the better way to go.  Purely opinion. 

Until you can break a topic like this down into mathematics (and by that I mean real mathmatics not pseudo equations like Stoic + RPG = Win lol) you will never have a "universal" truth as to which is actually better.  Because mathmatics are one of the few "universal truths" in this world.  2x2 will ALWAYS equal 4 no matter how much debate goes into it.  A topic like this, however, can not boast the same, simple outcome.  Because different people, have different "expectations" and criteria that need to be met in order for something to be "good" or "superior" to something else.  An no, neither sides expectations and criteria are superior to the other once again despite whatever "evidence" they put toward their cause.

Despite what some people think, I have never said that my opinion is superior to anyone elses.  (At least not diliberately anyway and Im sure Im not the only one guilty of that.) I have now, and always will only seek to have my opinion aknowledged as being just as valid as the opinion(s) being expressed to the contrary of mine.  It's not until someone tries to tell me that my opinion isnt worth spit because it doesnt coincide with theirs essentially that I take issue. 

And you know what  would be awesome?  If we never had those kinds of debates (the ones leading to direct or indirect personal attacks) where folks try and say that theirs is the only way of thinking and if you dont think that way then your opinion isnt valid.  Im not accusing anyone in particular atm of doing this (because once again, Im even guilty of it sometimes when I get frustrated lol).  But this kind of made me think.  Why is it that when a topic like this shows up, asking specifically for your opinion on a certain aspect of a game, that it is almost inevitable that it turns into a "My opinion is superior to your opinion" contest and folks essentially start tearing at each others jugulars trying to disprove the other person. 

Which brings me to this:  I personally enjoy a voiced protagonist over the latter believe it or not for some of the same reasons that some of the folks who prefer a stoic one.  For me, (and I speak only for myself) it adds more depth to a character.  For me, it makes them feel less like a puppet and more of a tangible being.  For me, it adds to the overall "RP" experience of the game.  Those who prefer the other will most likely find that shocking, if not inconceivable as well and ultimately try and make my opinion seem less valid, just so they can further validate theirs. 

That's my 2 sovereigns worth on the matter and some may find it quite shocking that it's rather tame compared to alot of my opinions on topics like this

Modifié par Aradace, 19 août 2011 - 01:25 .

[xkg]

Aradace wrote...
2x2 will ALWAYS equal 4 no matter how much debate goes into it.

Without telling what is the base of calculation this is utterly false.

(base of 3) 2x2 = 11
(base of 4) 2x2 = 10

[furryrage59]

Aradace wrote...

furryrage59 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

furryrage59 wrote...

^

Starting to wonder if trolling or believing the delusions being put down.

Because defending Hawke is trolling....right

But lets try to imagine when Bioware prevents us with immersion breaking elements in DAO such as showing the protagonist in conversation as well as giving him a voice in battle....thats not delusional to criticize this.

Not the defending Hawke part, the ridiculou stuff you keep saying about Origins that doesn't make any sense.

Your comment regarding the cinematics as just one example, it literally boggles my mind considering how much it sucked me and many others commenting here in, yet you're declaring that it doesn't and cannot as a matter of fact?

I can understand how some folks are sucked in by cinematics in Origins.  Myself, personally, was not.  Are the cinematics in Origins superior to those of DA2?  Again, to some, yes.  But not everyone feels the same way.  Again, I personally happened to like almost everything about DA2. (Re-used dungeons and maps are among a handful of complaints I have and yes, I know is not the topic of discussion but Im getting to that lol.)  Is a "stoic" protagonist (I use stoic because completely silent can be argued ad nauseum with symantics) superior to a voiced one?  Once again, to some, it is.  But yet again, not everyone feels the same way.  And in both regards, neither is a universal truth.  Meaning that those saying a stoic protagonist is superior, despite what "irrefutable", evidence they may provide, is now and always will be an opinion.  Same goes for those (like myself) who feel a fully voiced protagonist is the better way to go.  Purely opinion. 

Until you can break a topic like this down into mathematics (and by that I mean real mathmatics not pseudo equations like Stoic + RPG = Win lol) you will never have a "universal" truth as to which is actually better.  Because mathmatics are one of the few "universal truths" in this world.  2x2 will ALWAYS equal 4 no matter how much debate goes into it.  A topic like this, however, can not boast the same, simple outcome.  Because different people, have different "expectations" and criteria that need to be met in order for something to be "good" or "superior" to something else.  An no, neither sides expectations and criteria are superior to the other once again despite whatever "evidence" they put toward their cause.

Despite what some people think, I have never said that my opinion is superior to anyone elses.  (At least not diliberately anyway and Im sure Im not the only one guilty of that.) I have now, and always will only seek to have my opinion aknowledged as being just as valid as the opinion(s) being expressed to the contrary of mine.  It's not until someone tries to tell me that my opinion isnt worth spit because it doesnt coincide with theirs essentially that I take issue. 

And you know what  would be awesome?  If we never had those kinds of debates (the ones leading to direct or indirect personal attacks) where folks try and say that theirs is the only way of thinking and if you dont think that way then your opinion isnt valid.  Im not accusing anyone in particular atm of doing this (because once again, Im even guilty of it sometimes when I get frustrated lol).  But this kind of made me think.  Why is it that when a topic like this shows up, asking specifically for your opinion on a certain aspect of a game, that it is almost inevitable that it turns into a "My opinion is superior to your opinion" contest and folks essentially start tearing at each others jugulars trying to disprove the other person. 

Which brings me to this:  I personally enjoy a voiced protagonist over the latter believe it or not for some of the same reasons that some of the folks who prefer a stoic one.  For me, (and I speak only for myself) it adds more depth to a character.  For me, it makes them feel less like a puppet and more of a tangible being.  For me, it adds to the overall "RP" experience of the game.  Those who prefer the other will most likely find that shocking, if not inconceivable as well and ultimately try and make my opinion seem less valid, just so they can further validate theirs. 

That's my 2 sovereigns worth on the matter and some may find it quite shocking that it's rather tame compared to alot of my opinions on topics like this

Good post with some good points, thank you.

[Aradace]

xkg wrote...

Aradace wrote...
2x2 will ALWAYS equal 4 no matter how much debate goes into it.

Without telling what is the base of calculation this is utterly false.

(base of 3) 2x2 = 11
(base of 4) 2x2 = 10

Yeaaaaaaaaa Im not a math major so I have no idea what you just posted lol.  The principle of the point I was making should be clear.  (But thank you for flaunting your apparently stellar IQ.  )  So in leiu of that, I will amend that particular part of my post.  It will ALMOST always equal 4 unless you are a math savant like yourself.  (Not intended as an insult in the least believe it or not)

Modifié par Aradace, 19 août 2011 - 03:34 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Aradace wrote...

Yeaaaaaaaaa Im not a math major so I have no idea what you just posted lol.  The principle of the point I was making should be clear.  (But thank you for flaunting your apparently stellar IQ.  ) 

You used a poor analogy.  And since you used math to do it, he used math to show you how poor it was.

[Aradace]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Aradace wrote...

Yeaaaaaaaaa Im not a math major so I have no idea what you just posted lol.  The principle of the point I was making should be clear.  (But thank you for flaunting your apparently stellar IQ.  ) 

You used a poor analogy.  And since you used math to do it, he used math to show you how poor it was.

I probably did but I used the best thing I could come up with at the time.  It wasnt intended as an insult to him in the least.  I was serious about the apparent stellar IQ part lol

Point is, there are things, few as they are, that have clear and definable universal truths in the world.  The points I made in my post relating to this topic, are not one of them.  So no matter what any of us may think, regardless of evidence the other puts forth to defend their stance, as I stated, will be an opinion.

Modifié par Aradace, 19 août 2011 - 03:38 .

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Aradace wrote...

xkg wrote...

Aradace wrote...
2x2 will ALWAYS equal 4 no matter how much debate goes into it.

Without telling what is the base of calculation this is utterly false.

(base of 3) 2x2 = 11
(base of 4) 2x2 = 10

Yeaaaaaaaaa Im not a math major so I have no idea what you just posted lol.  The principle of the point I was making should be clear.  (But thank you for flaunting your apparently stellar IQ.  )  So in leiu of that, I will amend that particular part of my post.  It will ALMOST always equal 4 unless you are a math savant like yourself.  (Not intended as an insult in the least believe it or not)

Don't abandon your initial point because they used esoterica to nit pick your illustation of it.  ;) 

[Aradace]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Aradace wrote...

xkg wrote...

Aradace wrote...
2x2 will ALWAYS equal 4 no matter how much debate goes into it.

Without telling what is the base of calculation this is utterly false.

(base of 3) 2x2 = 11
(base of 4) 2x2 = 10

Yeaaaaaaaaa Im not a math major so I have no idea what you just posted lol.  The principle of the point I was making should be clear.  (But thank you for flaunting your apparently stellar IQ.  )  So in leiu of that, I will amend that particular part of my post.  It will ALMOST always equal 4 unless you are a math savant like yourself.  (Not intended as an insult in the least believe it or not)

Don't abandon your initial point because they used esoterica to nit pick your illustation of it.  ;) 

Oh Im not lol.  Just because I dont have as high an IQ as they do, doesnt mean my original point is any less valid.

[Wolf]

 In all honesty I prefer voiced PC, I just think it makes the conversations seem more realistic and less one-sided.
That being said I learned to love my Warden's lack of voice, I still got into the game and felt truly imersed in it.
I believe everyone can be satisfied if Bioware added an option to not being able to hear the characters voice and changing the dialogue wheel into the "wall of text" a lot of people love.
Not exactly sure how long this would take but I think it's something that should be looked into at least.
Overall, I'm happy with either one but prefer voiced protagonist because to me it feels better.

[furryrage59]

Aradace wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Aradace wrote...

xkg wrote...

Aradace wrote...
2x2 will ALWAYS equal 4 no matter how much debate goes into it.

Without telling what is the base of calculation this is utterly false.

(base of 3) 2x2 = 11
(base of 4) 2x2 = 10

Yeaaaaaaaaa Im not a math major so I have no idea what you just posted lol.  The principle of the point I was making should be clear.  (But thank you for flaunting your apparently stellar IQ.  )  So in leiu of that, I will amend that particular part of my post.  It will ALMOST always equal 4 unless you are a math savant like yourself.  (Not intended as an insult in the least believe it or not)

Don't abandon your initial point because they used esoterica to nit pick your illustation of it.  ;) 

Oh Im not lol.  Just because I dont have as high an IQ as they do, doesnt mean my original point is any less valid.

The other guy is just nit picking for the sake of it, you made a good point.

[xkg]

furryrage59 wrote...

Aradace wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Aradace wrote...

xkg wrote...

Aradace wrote...
2x2 will ALWAYS equal 4 no matter how much debate goes into it.

Without telling what is the base of calculation this is utterly false.

(base of 3) 2x2 = 11
(base of 4) 2x2 = 10

Yeaaaaaaaaa Im not a math major so I have no idea what you just posted lol.  The principle of the point I was making should be clear.  (But thank you for flaunting your apparently stellar IQ.  )  So in leiu of that, I will amend that particular part of my post.  It will ALMOST always equal 4 unless you are a math savant like yourself.  (Not intended as an insult in the least believe it or not)

Don't abandon your initial point because they used esoterica to nit pick your illustation of it.  ;) 

Oh Im not lol.  Just because I dont have as high an IQ as they do, doesnt mean my original point is any less valid.

The other guy is just nit picking for the sake of it, you made a good point.

Please. Don't use your ignorance to make my POINT look bad.
My point was simple - his analogy was very poor and thats all.
I never said his POINT is invalid and thats why i only quoted this part of his post.

Besides I agree with the rest of his post - about everyone being entitled to their own opinion.

Modifié par xkg, 19 août 2011 - 05:35 .

[furryrage59]

^

I thought your point was petty and reaching, ignorance has nothing to do with it, or should i say nothing to do with what I said!

But enough, let us not digress into petty name calling.

[dragonfire100]

furryrage59 wrote...

^

I thought your point was petty and reaching, ignorance has nothing to do with it, or should i say nothing to do with what I said!

But enough, let us not digress into petty name calling.

What furrrage said we cant be name calling on these fourms so for the sake of this site and bioware please keep it cilvil?

[dragonfire100]

xkg wrote...

furryrage59 wrote...

Aradace wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Aradace wrote...

xkg wrote...

Aradace wrote...
2x2 will ALWAYS equal 4 no matter how much debate goes into it.

Without telling what is the base of calculation this is utterly false.

(base of 3) 2x2 = 11
(base of 4) 2x2 = 10

Yeaaaaaaaaa Im not a math major so I have no idea what you just posted lol.  The principle of the point I was making should be clear.  (But thank you for flaunting your apparently stellar IQ.  )  So in leiu of that, I will amend that particular part of my post.  It will ALMOST always equal 4 unless you are a math savant like yourself.  (Not intended as an insult in the least believe it or not)

Don't abandon your initial point because they used esoterica to nit pick your illustation of it.  ;) 

Oh Im not lol.  Just because I dont have as high an IQ as they do, doesnt mean my original point is any less valid.

The other guy is just nit picking for the sake of it, you made a good point.

Please. Don't use your ignorance to make my POINT look bad.
My point was simple - his analogy was very poor and thats all.
I never said his POINT is invalid and thats why i only quoted this part of his post.

Besides I agree with the rest of his post - about everyone being entitled to their own opinion.

Post reported.

Modifié par dragonfire100, 20 août 2011 - 02:11 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

dragonfire100 wrote...

xkg wrote...

Please. Don't use your ignorance to make my POINT look bad.
My point was simple - his analogy was very poor and thats all.
I never said his POINT is invalid and thats why i only quoted this part of his post.

Besides I agree with the rest of his post - about everyone being entitled to their own opinion.

Post reported.

For what?  What in that post was possibly worth reporting?

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 20 août 2011 - 05:17 .

[FieryDove]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

dragonfire100 wrote...
Post reported.

For what?  What in that post was possibly worth reporting?

To get people banned...like me. sigh

No humor whatsoever.

Modifié par FieryDove, 20 août 2011 - 05:19 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

txgoldrush wrote...
a) because the Warden isn't allowed to show emotion while the other characters are, and not only that he is voice acted outside of dialogue, breaking immersion even more. "Can I get a ladder so you can get off my back" over and over..ugh.

Why would the warden be allow to show emotion?

I never see my own emotion unless I see through mirror but I know If I'm sad or happy or excited because I FEEL it. Not because I see those emotions. Your argument is a moot.

txgoldrush wrote...
you are never the actor and your freedom is limited anyway. And when does a cvidoe game RPG have to be narrowly defined.

Well.... That's your opinion.

For me, I am the actor for any character in Bethesda's TES. I am the actor for Fallout series + New Vegas. I define my own destiny. I define how I play GTA. I define how to shoot and dodge in Counter Strike. I define my own story in any MMORPG and sandbox games.

I am the actor for Neverwinter Night, Neverwinter Night 2 and Dragon Age Origins.  My Cousland didn't sacrifice herself to save the world. She did it because of Alistair and because she had already lost everything dear in her life that nothing matter anymore. This is my Cousland story.  Without me there is no story. Without me there is no character. This is how I see freedom in term of storywise. Things that I don't get from Hawke and DA 2 because everything is railroaded.

Game like JRPG, Alpha Protocol, Mass Effect 2, Assasin Creed, etc.... and any those game that use set character can go on without me because everyone is the same character with one story. I can don't play as Hawke and the story will continue regardless. I can don't play as Hawke and Anders will change the world anyway. I can don't play as Hawke and The mages conflict will happen anyway. Everything is meaningless. Heck even the story doesn't feel personal as it claim it is because it mainly concern watching how the world change and conflicts by the Qunari, Templars and the Mages.

txgoldrush wrote...
c) She investigates in her normal voice, in fact, playing through a female red Hawke, she speaks her normal tone 70% of the red lines, its more of a subtle direct approach than an intimidating one for the most part, however in some parts she brings the intimidation. Only a few times does she become like Renegade Shepard. Really Red Hawke is a huge improvement over Reenegade Shepard as she is much more subtle and most of her direct lines match the tone of her normal voice.

She investigates in her normal voice because that's the only tone she knows how to use. There is no other investigate tones. Period. Therefore Hawke is mentally ill character who cannot talk properly. And don't give me bad example with Renegade Shepard. Shepard has no personality. He/She is a set character whose personality  already defined by BioWare. You only control and watch him/her do the acting.

txgoldrush wrote...
d) Once again, you are trying to define RPGs in narrow terms...they are not always about freedom. Most RPGs don't emphasize freedom in the first place.

Most RPG allow you to live your character, make your own story and journey. And share it with other people. That's how I view RPG and I'm not about to submit to JRPG fans' view like yours who rather watch movie than truly become the actor of the game. Period.

txgoldrush wrote...
e) and many RPGs have every playthrough as the same character, whats the problem with that? The Wardens outside the Origin stories have the same story just as much as Hawke does, there is no real difference, the Warden always defeats the Archdemon. Hell Geralt in TW2 has more story differences across playthroughs then th efully customizable Warden.

See.. This is the problem when you have no imagination to live your character and rely on developer to define everything for you.

My Amber Cousland has different story than my Maverick Cousland. Amber Cousland died as the fifth Grey Warden who ended the Bligt and she will be always be near to my heart. My Maverick resigned his post as the Grey Warden Commander of Amaranthine to track down Morrigan in With Hunt and live happily with her until his calling.  Do I have to tell you the story of Mahariel and Aeducan as well? Because I have a lot of different stories for each of them.

What is Hawke story again? Right. He's a missing person who you don't even know exist or delusion from Varrick. But why do you care? You are not Hawke. You are just a person who watch Hawke from your monitor. That's who you are.You're too busy enjoying your observation and praising no matter how ridiculous it is. Yet, You have no idea how ridiculous it feel playing as the missing Hawke who only exist in other people's tale.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 20 août 2011 - 05:38 .

[Aliuex]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...
a) because the Warden isn't allowed to show emotion while the other characters are, and not only that he is voice acted outside of dialogue, breaking immersion even more. "Can I get a ladder so you can get off my back" over and over..ugh.

Why would the warden be allow to show emotion?

I never see my own emotion unless I see through mirror but I know If I'm sad or happy or excited because I FEEL it. Not because I see those emotions. Your argument is a moot.
 

What I think this boils down to is a difference in RP style. I know how I react emotionally and I know how my warden would/should react, but it's never portrayed in-game. As a person who prefers to role play from a third person perspective, I find it a little jarring. People that role play in a first person perspective seem to enjoy it. However in this case I wonder why even show a shot of the warden's blank face? This is a visual medium, but it doesn't seem to be utilizing it to it's fullest extent.

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...
you are never the actor and your freedom is limited anyway. And when does a cvidoe game RPG have to be narrowly defined.

Well.... That's your opinion.

For me, I am the actor for any character in Bethesda's TES. I am the actor for Fallout series + New Vegas. I define my own destiny. I define how I play GTA. I define how to shoot and dodge in Counter Strike. I define my own story in any MMORPG and sandbox games.

I am the actor for Neverwinter Night, Neverwinter Night 2 and Dragon Age Origins.  My Cousland didn't sacrifice herself to save the world. She did it because of Alistair and because she had already lost everything dear in her life that nothing matter anymore. This is my Cousland story.  Without me there is no story. Without me there is no character. This is how I see freedom in term of storywise. Things that I don't get from Hawke and DA 2 because everything is railroaded.

I'd say Bethesda, and in particular TES and Fallout advocate this style of first person role-playing. The camera is  set in first person (though in Fallout you can switch to third person, but I find the controls more difficult from that view) whereas Bioware sets their camera in third person. I believe that the game wants you to use your Courier as more of an avatar than a fully fleshed out character. I also believe that's why you never seen any camera shots of your character, because it would be jarring and immersion-breaking for some people.

Bioware seem to be moving away from this style, and I enjoy it. I don't care for using an in-game avatar to interact with the world and it's characters. I'd rather have the chance to define a character in as much as is allowed by a video game.

EDIT: Argh, formatting!

Modifié par suzaku77, 20 août 2011 - 06:00 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

suzaku77 wrote...
I'd say Bethesda, and in particular TES and Fallout advocate this style of first person role-playing. The camera is  set in first person (though in Fallout you can switch to third person, but I find the controls more difficult from that view) whereas Bioware sets their camera in third person. I believe that the game wants you to use your Courier as more of an avatar than a fully fleshed out character. I also believe that's why you never seen any camera shots of your character, because it would be jarring and immersion-breaking for some people.

I always thought BioWare use third person camera due to tactical combat and due to it's nature as party based RPG instead of single player adventurer. But the thing is they switch to first person camera view when it came to dialogue as in Neverwinter Night and Neverwinter Night 2 ( later took over by Obsidian ). I'm fine with this as many older party based game like Realm of Arkania also used the same visual style. Third person view for tactical combat view but switch to first person view for dialogue. In Origins, BioWare uses over the shoulder camera instead of fully first person but it's still basically the same as you, the talker ( not the watcher third person player ) pay your attention to whom you talk to. Therefore this allow me to fully focus my attention to whom I talk to as the character ingame and not as the third person observer.

suzaku77 wrote...
Bioware seem to be moving away from this style, and I enjoy it. I don't care for using an in-game avatar to interact with the world and it's characters. I'd rather have the chance to define a character in as much as is allowed by a video game.

BioWare seem to be moving away from this style since Mass Effect 2. How do you define a character when it's already defined? How can you think it's your character when all you did is just piloting/controlling it from afar like any other NPC? I can control Anders too. Does that make Anders my character? I also control Grunt in Warcraft, does that mean grunt is my character? I really don't get it.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 20 août 2011 - 06:58 .

[Icy Magebane]

Either way is fine... as long as they do a good job of it. I really can't argue with the way Shepard came to life, and couldn't imagine playing ME with a silent protagonist. It really depends on how well they nail down the character, and what kind of options we're given... to be fair, I didn't really dislike Hawke's personalities, although I wish that we as players had more control over the storyline... but that's a separate issue. Voiced or non-voiced doesn't matter if the development team is intent on limiting our options.

A silent protagonist is just as good... I never think twice about it when I'm playing Fallout, just like I never thought about it back in the old days... I don't see why it even matters if the protagonist has a voice or not. Makes it seem more like a movie, but it isn't a big deal either way IMO.

Edit:  I can't vote in the poll because I don't have a preference.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 20 août 2011 - 07:56 .

[Aliuex]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

suzaku77 wrote...
I'd say Bethesda, and in particular TES and Fallout advocate this style of first person role-playing. The camera is  set in first person (though in Fallout you can switch to third person, but I find the controls more difficult from that view) whereas Bioware sets their camera in third person. I believe that the game wants you to use your Courier as more of an avatar than a fully fleshed out character. I also believe that's why you never seen any camera shots of your character, because it would be jarring and immersion-breaking for some people.

I always thought BioWare use third person camera due to tactical combat and due to it's nature as party based RPG instead of single player adventurer. But the thing is they switch to first person camera view when it came to dialogue as in Neverwinter Night and Neverwinter Night 2 ( later took over by Obsidian ). I'm fine with this as many older party based game like Realm of Arkania also used the same visual style. Third person view for tactical combat view but switch to first person view for dialogue. In Origins, BioWare uses over the shoulder camera instead of fully first person but it's still basically the same as you, the talker ( not the watcher third person player ) pay your attention to whom you talk to. Therefore this allow me to fully focus my attention to whom I talk to as the character ingame and not as an third person observer.

I'd never really thought of the camera in terms of gameplay, tbh. I also wouldn't consider DA:O or NWN2 (I haven't played NWN, so I can't really say anything about it) conversations as being carried out in first person. I can see the character in question in an over the shoulder, third person format and because of that I don't feel that I am the actor for my warden or NWN2 character in the same way that I'm not the actor portraying my Hawke. Which is a reason that I prefer the voiced dialouge. If I'm going to be put out of the character using third person cameras then I like that my character can express emotions clearly and the companions and NPCs comment/act on these emotions.

In TES and Fallout everything is first person. Combat and conversation both occor without seeing your character (and thank god, because my characters are always end up being ugly as hell). That to me makes me feel as if the character is just there for me to interact with the world, not define as a person with goals, motivations, etc. As such, I don't think that a lack of voice is an issue and actually I think giving the PC a voice in such games would be a mistake.

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

suzaku77 wrote...
Bioware seem to be moving away from this style, and I enjoy it. I don't care for using an in-game avatar to interact with the world and it's characters. I'd rather have the chance to define a character in as much as is allowed by a video game.

BioWare seem to be moving away from this style since Mass Effect 2. How do you define a character when it's already defined? How can you think it's your character when all you did is just piloting/controlling it from afar like any other NPC? I can control Anders too. Does that make Anders my character? I also control Gruntt in Warcraft, does that mean grunt is my character? I really don't get it.

Personally, I think this is again a matter of taste. Yes, Hawke is a more defined character than the warden was, but not as defined as Shepard. Within the past two weeks I've played all three games (my god, too much free time:pinched:) the last one being Origins and I'm finding it harder to define my warden in game. I mean, I certainly have my head-canon, but the game is making it difficult. I'm not sure how much sense I'm making, so maybe an example would be better.

My cannon warden is a Fem!Surana. I think of her as a quiet bookworm with an overriding sense of duty, who is absolutely awful at lying. In the early Jowan quest she told Irving about the escape plans because it is her duty to as a circle mage, no matter how crappy she feels about it. The entire quest she tries to dissuade Jowan from continuing (picking the options along the line of "Maybe we should just leave, There could just be nothing in the next room, etc.) How I imagine these lines being delivered is incredibly nervously, considering she's probably experience alot of guilt and is lying to her best friend. However Jowan or Lily will never react to it, because it's not in the game. My Fem!Surana does not look nervous in the slightest, because she apparently has the best poker face ever. I don't expect the game to react to what I'm imagining in my head, because I'm sure other people have picked the same dialogue options but imagined them being delivered in a different manner. It does throw me out of the experience a bit. What ever manner you decide your warden has is basically overruled because the NPC will react as if the line has been delivered deadpan. What I don't feel is as if I've defined this character in-game.

With Hawke I feel like she's an actual character interacting in the world. I can decide her motivations and act upon it in game, while showing some emotion. When she is angry, the NPC will react to it. When she's being snarky, the npc will react to it. If you're snarky to Emeric he says something about your joke being tasteless (I think, I don't usually pick this option) and when you're snarky to the guard that's pinned down on the Wounded Coast, she comments that it's not the best time for joking. It makes the conversations feel more whole to me, and less one-sided because now I can both see and hear my character interacting with the world and it's people, and it actually responds to it. I do think that a lack of player agency hurt the ability to truly define Hawke and the fact that few quests actually have very different choices didn't help either. But in the end of the game I had a better and more consistant idea of who my Hawke was than I did with my warden.

My Hawke, despite being generally carefree, kind and snarky with her friends, was overcome with rage during the All that Remains quest. And, unlike my warden, I was able to express that in game. I would love for my Tabris to have been able to express such rage/anger and eventual sadness during her origin. It would have greatly improved her characterization for me.

I don't see how Bioware is moving away from this, though. With the introduction to VO to the Dragon Age franchise, I would say that would cement the third person role playing view. How has this changed since ME2? ME3 is still Shepard, still voiced and still has the wheel (something that I'm not convinced worked 100% for DA2, but works pretty well within ME)

What I don't understand about the first person style of role playing is how you manage to play the same game multiple times. I myself have two wardens that made it through to the very end, and several that got abandoned along the way. If I was simply playing as myself why would I ever want to play through the game again only to make the same decisions?

( EDIT: Good grief, wall of text. I hope that this makes some kind of sense)

Modifié par suzaku77, 20 août 2011 - 08:03 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

suzaku77 wrote...
I'd never really thought of the camera in terms of gameplay, tbh. I also wouldn't consider DA:O or NWN2 (I haven't played NWN, so I can't really say anything about it) conversations as being carried out in first person.

Conversation in Neverwinter Night 2 is first person view just like Neverwinter Night.

suzaku77 wrote...
I can see the character in question in an over the shoulder, third person format and because of that I don't feel that I am the actor for my warden or NWN2 character in the same way that I'm not the actor portraying my Hawke.

Only DAO uses over the shoulder camera view but we had this first/third person perspective discussion before. Through one of the interviews with the Docs, it's revealed that DA O was meant for first person and not third person.

suzaku77 wrote...
In TES and Fallout everything is first person. Combat and conversation both occor without seeing your character (and thank god, because my characters are always end up being ugly as hell). That to me makes me feel as if the character is just there for me to interact with the world, not define as a person with goals, motications, etc. As such, I don't think that a lack of voice is an issue and actually I think giving the PC a voice in such games would be a mistake.

True. And I enjoy it that way. I feel more involved than watching the world.   On the other hand, I don't mind with the voice itself. It's the defined 3 colors tone persona and how it handles the character persona that bug me. Hawke's voice is fine. He has the characteristic of the subtle person I want him to be. But his tendency to act and talk  on his own ****** me of to no end.

suzaku77 wrote...
With Hawke I feel like she's an actual character interacting in the world. I can decide her motivations and act upon it in game, while showing some emotion. When she is angry, the NPC will react to it. When she's being snarky, the npc will react to it. If you're snarky to Emeric he says something about your joke being tasteless (I think, I don't usually pick this option) and when you're snarky to the guard that's pinned down on the Wounded Coast, she comments that it's not the best time for joking. It makes the conversations feel more whole to me, and less one-sided because now I can both see and hear my character interacting with the world and it's people, and it actually responds to it. I do think that a lack of player agency hurt the ability to truly define Hawke and the fact that few quests actually have very different choices didn't help either. But in the end of the game I had a better and more consistant idea of who my Hawke was than I did with my warden.

My Hawke, despite generally being generally carefree, kind and snarky with her friends, was overcome with rage during the All that Remains quest. And, unlike my warden, I was able to express that in game. I would love for my Tabris to have been able to express such rage/anger and eventual sadness during her origin. It would have greatly improved her characterization for me.

Thank you. I get what you mean. This.... I don't know how to express it but certainly doesn't suit my RP style.
For me this is just like watching a character  you controlled while you yourself are not part of the world. I don't know how you enjoy it.   But you're right. This is a matter of taste.

suzaku77 wrote...
I don't see how Bioware is moving away from this, though. With the introduction to VO to the Dragon Age franchise, I would say that would cement the third person role playing view. How has this changed since ME2? ME3 is still Shepard, still voiced and still has the wheel (something that I'm not convinced worked 100% for DA2, but works pretty well within ME)

BioWare start using cinematic approach and VO with ME 2 and DA 2 is following ME 2 formula. They have never done such things before ME 2.

suzaku77 wrote...
What I don't understand about the first person style of role playing is how you manage to play the same game multiple times. I myself have two wardens that made it through to the very end, and several that got abandoned along the way. If I was simply playing as myself why would I ever want to play through the game again only to make the same decisions?

Ah that's easy. I'm not a female therefore I imagine what would my GF react as Amber Cousland. So Amber story is more like "made up" while playing as maverick Cousland, I get the chance to play as myself, having romance with Morrigan despite she constantly ****** me off ( it surprise me though how much I care for this woman in the end ). So you see, playing as Amber Cousland is never the same as playing as Maverick Cousland. Amber had romance with Alistair who died for him while my Maverick loves Morrigan very much that he will find her no matter what.  The role-playing experince is totally different. As Amber Cousland, I try to understand how female feeling works and this is though because I only guessing. But playing as Maverick Cousland I completely understand how I feel and why I choose such reaction. Therefore it's more me and the story feel more alive or engaging. Now let's assume that I want to play evil character, I will certainly choose to kill Connor ( I feel bad about it but it's interesting nevertheless ), Side with the werewolves and Bhelen ( I hate Bhelen but it amaze me how he's turn out to be considerate person when it comes to the dwarven class system ) , Kill Leliana in Sacred Ashes etc.... You see this experience can never be the same if I am to play a totally good character ( which is what Hawke can only be in DA 2 ).

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 20 août 2011 - 08:45 .