987 réponses à ce sujet

[LordKinoda]

What if the voice is emotional when a family member dies, and i want it unemotional, or extremely emotional? There is so much you can't do with a voice.

I'd still like to argue that this is the strength of the voiced character, not the weakness. Do you lose a little bit of role-playing in your mind's eye ? Maybe. But the sacrifice is well worth it to me.

The writer can't create those emotions, so the writer shouldn't try.  It's a fool's errand.  The writer's job is to create an environment in which my character can act and emote in ways that matter to him, and to me.

Uh, yes they can. They are writing it, they are explaining how the characters feel and why. They just have to try harder to set you up for sillent characters, because the emotion isn't in the voice. True enough that they can't create the emotions in you, but it's easier to hit nearer the mark they want to you hit when the character is voiced. Is that limiting and trying more to direct your experience ? A little. But again, I think it's worth it.


It seems some of you are explaining some pen ultimate role-playing game where you can do and say whatever you want. No game has EVER done this. THAT is a fact. There are still many of the same limitations in games with a silent character. There are still only 3-5 lines to choose from for replies. And those replies still ultimately lead you in the direction of completing a certain quest, no matter how you choose to do it. There isn't ultimate freedrom, because if that were the case the game would never end.


Now if you are saying that moving the plot along the lines the writer wants you to ultimately go is less apparent using a silent character, I can sort of agree on that. But complete open-endedness just does not, and cannot happen.

Modifié par LordKinoda, 24 août 2011 - 01:04 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

I know they're going for voice protagonist. I'm fine with it as long as they can find a way how not to define player character because it's my job to define my own character. Just trying to point out non-defined PC versus BioWare's set character argument through any mean such as voiced implementation ( dialogue wheels, paraphrase etc... ) and storywise.

LordKinoda wrote...

On my first play through, I already knew I was playing a story told by Varric. A story within a story. An illusion. I feel discontented seeing default BioWare's character for the first two minutes. Personally I think this is a big mistake.

I think you are placing far too much individuality on the Warden.

This is why I like your post. You understand my mind very well. Hahahaha. Precisely!!

LordKinoda wrote...
You are applying your fan fiction idea in your mind to the character, when in reality, you can't do that.

I know. But it's fun. Imagine the limitless possibility. You can do whatever you want as you're the creator, writer or god in your own world. Just like Gaider himself. Hahahaha.

LordKinoda wrote...
You can do it in your head, or if you wrote a story about the character, but the consequences and nuances will not show up in the game itsefl. Ever.

In official campaigan it wouldn't show. That's true. But trust me. No modders on this planet ever rely on the official campaign to have fun either. Neverwinter Nights for example. I didn't purchase it for the story. We all know, the official campaign isn't well done. Still, it's community grows even today due to mods.

What if we can make it appear in game....

My Lady Aeducan is an elf! Hahaha. ( I'm not sure how happy Gaider going to see this image but this is one of my warden's story. )

Testing a mod back then in January. I wasn't thinking of making a great image. Just to show people that my character is unique. Nevertheless, this image was second most popular DAO images at dragonagenexus.com somewhere around January/February 2011. It received 7 endorsement.


You could say that again, Cassandra.
This image was meant a joke, since Cassandra nailed it nicely.

Ok. Let's talk about fan fiction inside my head. ( I was working a trailer on this custom made single player campaign. Who  to say you need to use game resource for fan-made trailer?  )

DA O: Genesis concept idea. The resurrection of Amber Cousland.

 
With toolset, you can actually make it appear in game. Not in everyone's game of course. But hey, isn't the essence of RPG is making your own story? So why would everyone have to share the same set character and story? 

Anyway, applying fan fiction to the game is we, modders, like to challenge ourselves.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 24 août 2011 - 10:47 .

[KLUME777]

Aradace wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Aradace wrote...

So now you're telling me what I can and cannot RP?  That's funny because, again, I RP Shep and Hawke respectively. 

That's interesting.  Do you ever override the explicit in-game content?  If Shepard or Hawke says something your character design wouldn't have them say, how do you handle that?  Do you just imagine they spoke differently?

Actually I do.  It's embarassing to admit but in order to explain it, I have to put it out there in the open.  When I RP my Shep or Hawke I actually read aloud the lines and "act" them out myself for the most part.  (as best as one can do sitting on the bed playing lol) and more often than not, if I select say a "Snarky" response and it doesnt seem to quite fit what the character would actually say, I simply improv the line myself out loud into something that actually would fit.  If I want either of them to have an accent, I use an accent.  Im actually to the point now where Ive played ME2 and DA2 so much that I pretty much have most of the lines memorized (to an extent) as to what their respected Protags will say.  So as time goes on with multiple playthroughs, it becomes easier and easier for me to improv lines in that would actually fit because I come to remember more and more of the spoken dialog ahead of time.

Not sure if that's a proper explanation but hopefully it clarified it a little? lol:blush:

Edit: I was a drama class nerd in High School so I guess it's easier for me to do that perhaps? lol

?? If you do that, you may as well use a silent, but...whatever.

As a side note, i do drama, and i love it, i'm the best drama student in my class (no joke).

[Aradace]

KLUME777 wrote...

Aradace wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Aradace wrote...

So now you're telling me what I can and cannot RP?  That's funny because, again, I RP Shep and Hawke respectively. 

That's interesting.  Do you ever override the explicit in-game content?  If Shepard or Hawke says something your character design wouldn't have them say, how do you handle that?  Do you just imagine they spoke differently?

Actually I do.  It's embarassing to admit but in order to explain it, I have to put it out there in the open.  When I RP my Shep or Hawke I actually read aloud the lines and "act" them out myself for the most part.  (as best as one can do sitting on the bed playing lol) and more often than not, if I select say a "Snarky" response and it doesnt seem to quite fit what the character would actually say, I simply improv the line myself out loud into something that actually would fit.  If I want either of them to have an accent, I use an accent.  Im actually to the point now where Ive played ME2 and DA2 so much that I pretty much have most of the lines memorized (to an extent) as to what their respected Protags will say.  So as time goes on with multiple playthroughs, it becomes easier and easier for me to improv lines in that would actually fit because I come to remember more and more of the spoken dialog ahead of time.

Not sure if that's a proper explanation but hopefully it clarified it a little? lol:blush:

Edit: I was a drama class nerd in High School so I guess it's easier for me to do that perhaps? lol

?? If you do that, you may as well use a silent, but...whatever.

As a side note, i do drama, and i love it, i'm the best drama student in my class (no joke).

Not necessarily, because I dont have to ad-lib all the lines.  If I had to ad-lib them all, then I could see your arguement.  But, I dont.  Hence, ad-libing.  Again, however, Im still disproving your point that it cant be done when in fact it can.  

[jcrusader]

Silent all the way.
If you want to have a voiced game, go play the Mass effect series or the witcher and let the us have at least one game where we can be ourselves.

[jcrusader]

P.S How long until we expect Bioware to give us some infomation on this?

[Aradace]

jcrusader wrote...

P.S How long until we expect Bioware to give us some infomation on this?

They already have ages ago.  No joke, it was already said that they have no plans to go back to a silent (or stoic) PC anytime soon.  If I could find the link I'd post it.  

[Ragnar Aeducan]

I prefer the protagonist to talk , i went back played Origins after playing Dragon Age II over and over, I played as a Dwarf Commoner , and silence just wasnt nice :/, however i think the voices were flexible enough , i just couldnt believe what they were saying at times when they were being aggresive or rude.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Aradace wrote...

Actually I do.  It's embarassing to admit but in order to explain it, I have to put it out there in the open.  When I RP my Shep or Hawke I actually read aloud the lines and "act" them out myself for the most part.  (as best as one can do sitting on the bed playing lol) and more often than not, if I select say a "Snarky" response and it doesnt seem to quite fit what the character would actually say, I simply improv the line myself out loud into something that actually would fit.  If I want either of them to have an accent, I use an accent.  Im actually to the point now where Ive played ME2 and DA2 so much that I pretty much have most of the lines memorized (to an extent) as to what their respected Protags will say.  So as time goes on with multiple playthroughs, it becomes easier and easier for me to improv lines in that would actually fit because I come to remember more and more of the spoken dialog ahead of time.

Not sure if that's a proper explanation but hopefully it clarified it a little? lol:blush:

Very much.  Thank you.

How then do you handle it when the in-game events then contradict your portrayal?  For example, if you want a line delivered differently from how the game wants you to deliver it, and then a while lot springs up from the game's version of the line.  That plot wouldn't make any sense.  If you want to let the slavers in Darktown go because you have nothing against slavers, but the game has you sneer at them because they're not worth Hawke's time to kill, how do you resolve that?  The game thinks Hawke hates the slavers.  You think Hawke doesn't.  In-game events may well be based on Hawke's supposed hatred of the slavers.

This is the problem I'm complaining about.  By making that delivery of the line explicit, they can and will then build on that as a plot element.  You can't override it without risking plot discontinuity.

So how do you handle the plot discontinuity?

[Sylvius the Mad]

LordKinoda wrote...

What if the voice is emotional when a family member dies, and i want it unemotional, or extremely emotional? There is so much you can't do with a voice.

I'd still like to argue that this is the strength of the voiced character, not the weakness. Do you lose a little bit of role-playing in your mind's eye ? Maybe. But the sacrifice is well worth it to me.

You don't lose a little bit of roleplaying.  You lose all of the roleplaying.  If you're not allowed to choose your character's reaction, then you're not roleplaying.

Whenever Hawke's reaction is portrayed explciitly onscreen without any direct input from the player, that event is the complete absence of roleplaying.

Uh, yes they can. They are writing it, they are explaining how the characters feel and why.

They don't know my character.  They can't know how he feels.

When the Warden sides with that merchant in Lothering, why is he doing that?  BioWare can't answer that question.  The Warden might be doing it because it benefits him to do so - a selfish motive.  The Warden might also be doing it to spite te Chantry - a vindictive motive.  The Warden might also be doing it because he respects property rights and the merchant is the rightful owner of his goods.  That Warden is taking a principled stand in the face of public opposition.

BioWare can't possibly have the Warden behave appropriately for all of those possible motives.

True enough that they can't create the emotions in you, but it's easier to hit nearer the mark they want to you hit when the character is voiced.

They shouldn't be trying to create emotions in me.  My emotions don't matter.  My emotions are not relevant to my gameplay experience, except to diminish it.  Whenever I become aware of my own emotions when roleplaying, the only possible consequence is me breaking character.

I don't exist within the game.  I don't want to be aware of myself while I'm playing.  I don't understand why anyone would.  All that would do is interfere with in-character decision-making.

It seems some of you are explaining some pen ultimate role-playing game where you can do and say whatever you want.

Not at all.  Even in a tabletop game that's not true.

But I should be able to do or say the things the game permits for whatever reason I can imagine.  That's where the roleplaying is.  That in-character decision-making is the core gameplay of any RPG.  When a game like DA2 or ME comes along and tells me I'm not allowed to decide those things, then those games aren't permittiing roleplay.

There are still only 3-5 lines to choose from for replies.

But the delivery of those lines is left to you, so your number of options is action 3-5*n, where n is the number of different ways you can imagine the delivery of each line.

Voicing the PC limits us to just 3-5 options, and that's vastly fewer.

 And those replies still ultimately lead you in the direction ofcompleting a certain quest, no matter how you choose to do it.

Stop being aware that you're playing a game.  Instead, just play your character and see where events take him.

From the character's point of view, there's no such thing as a quest.  Each event is a discrete piece of reality, and some of them are related and some of them aren't, but the idea of a coherent sequenec of events constitutive a quest doesn't make any sense from the character's point of view.  Actions have consequences.  Sometimes those consequences are predictable and explainable.  Sometimes they're not.  That's the structure of reality from the character's perspective.

There isn't ultimate freedrom, because if that were the case the game would never end.

The game ends only because you stop playing it.

Now if you are saying that moving the plot along the lines the writer wants you to ultimately go is less apparent using a silent character, I can sort of agree on that. But complete open-endedness just does not, and cannot happen.

No.  The plot, as defined by the writers, doesn't exist within the game.  All the voiced protagonist does is limit the PC's range of possible behaviour.

The only supposed benefit of voicing the protagonist is that it allows a more tightly scripted story, but the story is at most a backdrop to the roleplaying.  Limiting (or destroying) the roleplaying in order to improve that story is the height of absurdity.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 24 août 2011 - 07:23 .

[dsl08002]

When your character has a voice it feels more alive and personal, you are part of the game.
But when your character is silent for example in DAO you had more alternative to choose

[Sylvius the Mad]

dsl08002 wrote...

When your character has a voice it feels more alive and personal, you are part of the game.

I think the opposite.  When my character is voiced, I then has less control over his behaviour, and even his thoughts, so then I feel I don't know him any better than I know any of the other characters.

That pushes me out of the game.  It makes my contribution less relevant.  With a voiced protagonist, nothing about my gameplay experience has to with me - it's all defined by the inputs written by the designers.

[Captain_Obvious]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
The only supposed benefit of voicing the protagonist is that it allows a more tightly scripted story, but the story is at most a backdrop to the roleplaying.  Limiting (or destroying) the roleplaying in order to improve that story is the height of absurdity.

You forgot to add "for me" to the above sentences. 

The benefit of voicing the protagonist allows me to enjoy the game more than a silent protagonist.  I'd gladly sacrifice older conventions so I could get more satisfaction out of a game. 

[Nightrain50]

Modifié par Nightrain50, 25 août 2011 - 04:14 .

[LordKinoda]

But trust me. No modders on this planet ever rely on the official campaign to have fun either. Anyway, applying fan fiction to the game is we, modders, like to challenge ourselves.

Oh, I'll agree all day that mods are amazing. I even went out and re-purchased DAO for PC even though I already owned it on 360 specifically for the mods.

That being said, there has never really been a comprehensive mod that allows you to FULLY make the protagonist your own. You can change their appearnace to make it one of a kind, or a unique weapon, or game textures. But nobody has ever made a huge story driven campaign type mode comparable to the vanilla game. Is it theoretically possible ? Yes, with the toolset. But it's a very huge undertaking for a single person, which if one is to truly enjoy complete autonomy for a character, is what it would have to be made for. Perhaps some developer, or if we're really lucky, a modder, will make some type of mod/engine/creator thing that makes it simple to create and add unique stories to games, and add your own voices on top of it. There has been a little bit done in this area, like LittleBigPlanet for example. If that evolved a lot more, it could be really great.

This is the problem I'm complaining about. By making that delivery of the line explicit, they can and will then build on that as a plot element. You can't override it without risking plot discontinuity.

You CAN'T do this with a silent character either. In your head you can, but intent is still obvious from the context. Like I said, you are placing far too much individuality on the Warden, when it reality s/he is still defined to a certain extent. The NPC's only respond to any given line a certain way.

You don't lose a little bit of roleplaying. You lose all of the roleplaying. If you're not allowed to choose your character's reaction, then you're not roleplaying.

This statement would be true if you were allowed to run the gamut of emotion on each reply. But you arn't. Because they would then have to have the NPC who you are speaking to record a different line to react to each specific line in that gamut of emotion in order to make the intention of said line clear and react to it realistically. This would be crazy. They would never get the story told, at least coherently.

But the delivery of those lines is left to you, so your number of options is action 3-5*n, where n is the number of different ways you can imagine the delivery of each line.

You can imagine delivery all you want. But since the NPC's respond a certain way to each line you can infer how it was said to them. So in the end it's not really all that different.

The game ends only because you stop playing it.

No, the game ends when I kill the arch-demon and walk out of the landsmeet chamber. Or it ends in Amaranthine or Vigil's Keep. Or because I did or didn't walk through the eluvian. Or sided with the mages or templars and Varric finishes his tale.

There is nothing after any of those events, as much as I want there to be. This isn't the Never Ending Story, epic as that would be

Silent, simply because I want choice of race.

I've said this before, in this thread and others, one voice could be used for more than one race. Hawke's voice could easily be applied to an elf or a dwarf.

Now you are no longer silent and can create many wild and wonderful voices for every character you can imagine

Then you would just be hearing your voice again immediately after you've just said it. This would be very odd indeed. Not to mention the sound quality would be garbage. Have you never listened to voice chatter over Ventrilo or Xbox live ? Not really HD is it ? And again, you can say lines however you want to, but that won't change the way the NPC responds to them, the still have a set number of ways to respond to any given lines.

Now I have said before, that some type of mod that lets you insert your own audio files for the character into the game would be neat, but only after you've had one playthrough so as to avoid spoilers. This way you could clean up the audio and make sure background noise is eliminated. This would require a decent mic though, not some cheap thing you connect to your computer's USB port.

[Ihatebadgames]

Silent.The voices used for main PC are good for the most part,but never sound like I think the PC should sound like.

[KLUME777]

Aradace wrote...

jcrusader wrote...

P.S How long until we expect Bioware to give us some infomation on this?

They already have ages ago.  No joke, it was already said that they have no plans to go back to a silent (or stoic) PC anytime soon.  If I could find the link I'd post it.  

Below.

Hello There wrote...

And if im wrong, let a dev come in here and set us straight. I am aware
of Mike Laidlaw's comment, but that was how many months ago now?
Fernando Melo's comment was a few days ago, and i don't think it is hard
to believe that the developers may change their mind. So until a dev
comments, im gonna keep pushing for voice.

And if he comments saying we have no hope...well im gonna keep pushing anyway.

[Sylvius the Mad]

LordKinoda wrote...

You CAN'T do this with a silent character either. In your head you can, but intent is still obvious from the context.

Nonsense.  Intent isn't knowable unless you're a mind-reader.  And with the PC, you are, because you populated his mind.

The context frames the information.  It offers none of its own.

Like I said, you are placing far too much individuality on the Warden, when it reality s/he is still defined to a certain extent. The NPC's only respond to any given line a certain way.

How the NPCs respond tells about the NPCs.  It tells us about their response to the line  Their response tells us nothing about the line itself.

All of the information about the line itself was available before you selected it.  If that's not true, then you cannot reasonably be described as having chosen the line.

If I offer you the choice between Cake 1 and Cake 2, and you choose Cake 2, did you choose a chocolate cake?  Or a lemon cake?  No, you didn't.  You chose Cake 2.  That Cake 2 turns out to be chocolate or lemon tells us nothing about your choice.  It tells us nothing about your preferences.  If Cake 2 turns out to be chocolate, that doesn't mean you prefer chocolate, or you wanted chocolate right then.  You might have specifically wanted to avoid the chocolate, but I somehow tricked you with the frosting or by putting the cakes under coloured lights are any other form of obfuscation that prevented you from knowing which cake was the one you wanted.

The NPC responses to the PC's lines cannot be used to inform our understanding of those lines, because the nPC responses are not available until after the choice had been made.

This statement would be true if you were allowed to run the gamut of emotion on each reply.

If they got rid of the cinematic dialogue, you could.  You could do this in NWN, for example.

But you arn't. Because they would then have to have the NPC who you are speaking to record a different line to react to each specific line in that gamut of emotion in order to make the intention of said line clear and react to it realistically.

Again, the NPC reaction isn't relevant.  How the NPCs react tells us about the NPCs.  If I say something in a certain way, how the NPC reacts tells me something about who that NPC is.

If I play through the same section of the game again, and deliver the same line in a completely different way, that NPC reaction now tells me something different about who that NPC is.

On each subsequent playthrough, the NPCs might be very different people.

You can imagine delivery all you want. But since the NPC's respond a certain way to each line you can infer how it was said to them.

I don't need to infer how it was said to them.  I know how it was said to them. 

When you speak to people, do you watch their reactions carefully to know what it was you said?  Of course not.  That would make you crazy.  No, you watch their reactions so that you'll know how they reacted to what you said, and that reaction is how you learn about them.

No, the game ends when I kill the arch-demon and walk out of the landsmeet chamber. Or it ends in Amaranthine or Vigil's Keep. Or because I did or didn't walk through the eluvian. Or sided with the mages or templars and Varric finishes his tale.

No, that's when the authored narrative ends.  The game, and the game's story, ends when you decide it ends.

You're also ignoring the possibility of PC death.  The story ends when the PC dies, reagrdless of whether you've reached the end of the authored narrative.

I've said this before, in this thread and others, one voice could be used for more than one race. Hawke's voice could easily be applied to an elf or a dwarf.

They have established lore pertaining to accents.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 25 août 2011 - 05:23 .

[Zanallen]

KLUME777 wrote...

Below.

Hello There wrote...

And if im wrong, let a dev come in here and set us straight. I am aware
of Mike Laidlaw's comment, but that was how many months ago now?
Fernando Melo's comment was a few days ago, and i don't think it is hard
to believe that the developers may change their mind. So until a dev
comments, im gonna keep pushing for voice.

And if he comments saying we have no hope...well im gonna keep pushing anyway.

But Melo's comment has nothing to do with the silent/voiced argument. It has to do with a fixed protagonist versus origin choices.

[devin the deviant]

if it is with a good voice actor, then definitely voiced.

[LordKinoda]

The NPC responses to the PC's lines cannot be used to inform our understanding of those lines, because the nPC responses are not available until after the choice had been made.

True, but they way they respond gives you more clues as to how the line was "spoken".

If they got rid of the cinematic dialogue, you could. You could do this in NWN, for example.

Right, because THIS is so fun and entertaining to take part in. Seriously ? No. Just..no.

If I play through the same section of the game again, and deliver the same line in a completely different way, that NPC reaction now tells me something different about who that NPC is.

What I'm trying to say is their responses help you infer the intent. This is only one of many clues to pick up the intent of the PC's dialog.

And what you said in the above quote makes no sense. You say the same line delivered in a different way ? In your mind maybe. But the NPC will react EXACTLY the same unless the developers had the voice actor record multiple tones to react to different intentions of the PC. Which they don't do, at least nobody has yet, so the NPC will be the same, no matter what you do. So this particular freedom you're claiming the silent character gives is not present. It's basically the same as the voiced, only with the voiced you hear your character and get the full intent without having to work harder to make sure you got the proper intent in your mind.

On each subsequent playthrough, the NPCs might be very different people.

Not VERY different. You have some control on how they develop but in the end they still have set personalites. Hence the friend/rival system.

When you speak to people, do you watch their reactions carefully to know what it was you said? Of course not. That would make you crazy

Ha ! This only proves what I just said. No you don't do that because you are SPEAKING the line, not to mention you are personally saying it and not picking a text line on a screen.

They have established lore pertaining to accents.

Yeah, that's not really all that iron clad. All Fereldans don't have to have british/australian slanting accents, and all Orlesians don't have to sound french. Maybe a majority do, but that doesn't mean anything. Alistair doesn't sound british/australian does he ? Does Loghain ? No.

if it is with a good voice actor, then definitely voiced.

Well that's one of the problems some people have with a voiced PC.
"They don't sound like I thought they would."

I would venture a guess to sa that no matter who did their voice they wouldn't be satisfied.

[devin the deviant]

Eterna5 wrote...

I prefer a voiced protagonist.

Silent ones seems emotionless and they always have such creepy blank stares.

yep.  having a PC with a voice adds a lot of personality to the character.

[Hello There]

Zanallen wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

Below.

Hello There wrote...

And if im wrong, let a dev come in here and set us straight. I am aware
of Mike Laidlaw's comment, but that was how many months ago now?
Fernando Melo's comment was a few days ago, and i don't think it is hard
to believe that the developers may change their mind. So until a dev
comments, im gonna keep pushing for voice.

And if he comments saying we have no hope...well im gonna keep pushing anyway.

But Melo's comment has nothing to do with the silent/voiced argument. It has to do with a fixed protagonist versus origin choices.

A set and defined character vs a undefined character with Origins is inherently linked to voiced and no voiced.

[Zanallen]

Hello There wrote...

A set and defined character vs a undefined character with Origins is inherently linked to voiced and no voiced.

Sorry, but no it isn't. You can easily have origins with a voiced protagonist.