987 réponses à ce sujet

[Cutlasskiwi]

In Exile wrote...

Voice. Nothing makes a character a soulless puppet faster than bland & direct Bioware dialogue + no voice.

Pretty much this. Especially when everyone else in the world is talking.  

[Serpieri Nei]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Prefer Silent - Especially if the reason we got such a mediocre game is due to that.

Um a voiced protaganist is not why there were recycled dungeons, unsatisfying ending, and controversial changes to art direction.  The Mass Effect series has been doing just fine with a voiced protaginist.  Now if you were to argue that a voiced protaginist limits roleplaying because it is most likely one of the main reasons we could only play as a human than I get it but you can't blame the rest of the game's faults on a voiced protaginist.

You misunderstood the statement. You’re also basing your post on what you believe to be DA2's shortcomings. And if you want to compare ME to Origins, then maybe you should create a post on it and we can all post sales data, reception, scores, reviews, etc. 

I am not comparing series I am just pointing out that having a voiced protaginist doesn't necessarily make or break a series as Mass Effect has had a voiced protaginist and it hasn't effected that series in a negative way so why should it effect DA in a negative way?  I love both series but I understand they are both different and they should be I am not saying one is better than the other I am just pointing out that a voiced protaganist has worked out fine in the one and it was not the reason why there is controversy with the other.  As far as DA 2's shortcomings are concerned why I listed the ones I did is because that is the general consensus I seem to find with most complaints (I know the aren't always the same with everyone but those are the ones most people seem to have).  I know I am generalising a bit but I think I am with good reason.  I actualy like DA2 but some of those shortcomings really do need to be addressed in their next game. 

As I said you misunderstood, now you believe that my statement implied that voice can make or break a series or that it was the sole reason behind the DA2 controversy. So let me make it clear, any new element can impact a game in either a negative or positive way, ranging from cost, time, resources, and how it was received. And this is just a few examples.

Different? Maybe that was true once when one compared Origins to Mass Effect but not so different now when
comparing DA2 to ME2.

If you want to continue this then PM me so the thread does not get de-railed.

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 06 août 2011 - 09:55 .

[deserk]

If silent protagonist means getting the option to play as other races than human, then I would absolutely be for it.

[Morroian]

Voiced.

[tfive24]

I prefer silent main character. Too bad DA3 will be voiced, i guess i will not be buying anymore bioware games. I enjoyed 3 out of the 5 i brought from them.

[Joy Divison]

In a world where every insignificant NPC talks and emotes, no thanks on the protagonist's blank stare.

Silent movies went out of style in the 1930s

[The Edge]

I'm for silent. It seems to me to be a difference between being actively involved in the convo during the game and simply watching the convo take place.

The voice is fine in some instances (such as when it is originally intended i.e. Shepard in ME), but IMO, DA should've kept it silent. Chances of it ever reverting back is probably never going to happen, though...

[Atakuma]

The Silent protagonist always made it feel like there was an extra degree of separation between me and the story. I prefer the voiced PC because they feel like a part of the world rather than avatar.

[csfteeeer]

let's see....

Voiced, i get a single race with a boring ass Shepard Wanna be...
or Silent, where i get multiple races and i can make the character think what i want....

mmmm.... that's a hard one....

/Sarcasm

[dheer]

Silent PC. Nothing takes away more player agency than forcing me to listen to spoken dialogue, from what's supposed to be my own character, when I want to see the reaction to my choice from my chat partner. Having it not match what I tried to pick is awful as well but that's more of a paraphrase problem.

[Out to Lunch]

Definitely voiced.

[Auroras]

Voiced protagonist, s'il vous plait.

[In Exile]

MerinTB wrote...
Shepard is not my Shepard.  Hawke is not my Hawke.  I'd RATHER make my own character, but if it's not my character than please stop half-way pretending it is to try and give me some small consolation. 
I'd rather the Courier I make in New Vegas than Hawke, but I'd also rather play Master Chief than Shepard.  If that makes sense.

Shepard is my character. The apperance, the dialogue chosen, the gender... these things matter tremendously. I get that to you (and Addai, and Brock) RP is about some other kind of features you think you control in-game. 

But I disagree. 

The Courier isn't even a character, IMO. There's nothing there in the game for there to be a character - just a platform for dialogue. 

[In Exile]

J.C. Blade wrote...
Mass Effect doesn’t allow me to play a manipulative, scheming and utterly mad Shepard who hates Earth; instead I’m forced to lead this grunt soldier around who usually solves her problems with fists and expresses her love for her planet on a regular basis. And yes, that is my canon Shepard, the mad one.

Okay, so? What makes you think I think that sort of variety is good? 

I accept that the game has a story it wants to tell and will therefore limit me in what type of character I want to play. I do not accept that I have to do novel-length writing FOR the game and fill in 7 year worth of time gap with potential events none of which would ever make an impact on Hawke in the actual game because it all happened in my head.

Well, that's what RPG fans are asking for. This is literally the essence of what a silent protagonist is: inventing content in your head (voice, background) and making sense of two disconnected events you see on screen (initial NPC reaction, NPC reaction following PC dialogue choice).

It's really confusing that you get exactly why I would say silent PC's are absolutely worthless, and then you use that as a rationale for a silent PC.  

[csfteeeer]

In Exile wrote...

J.C. Blade wrote...
Mass Effect doesn’t allow me to play a manipulative, scheming and utterly mad Shepard who hates Earth; instead I’m forced to lead this grunt soldier around who usually solves her problems with fists and expresses her love for her planet on a regular basis. And yes, that is my canon Shepard, the mad one.

Okay, so? What makes you think I think that sort of variety is good?

Nothing, but if you're going to ask someone if a silent protagonist doesn't allow for you to make the character be who YOU want, then prove to them how does a voiced does this.

I accept that the game has a story it wants to tell and will therefore limit me in what type of character I want to play. I do not accept that I have to do novel-length writing FOR the game and fill in 7 year worth of time gap with potential events none of which would ever make an impact on Hawke in the actual game because it all happened in my head.

Well, that's what RPG fans are asking for. This is literally the essence of what a silent protagonist is: inventing content in your head (voice, background) and making sense of two disconnected events you see on screen (initial NPC reaction, NPC reaction following PC dialogue choice).

It's really confusing that you get exactly why I would say silent PC's are absolutely worthless, and then you use that as a rationale for a silent PC.  

Silent = No Background?...ejem...



Says "Hi!"

Seriously though,that's blatantly false, it simple depends on the character the writers want to make, whether they want to leave the story of character up to the viewer/player or give them the backstory themselves has absolutely nothing do with Silent Protagonists.

Modifié par csfteeeer, 07 août 2011 - 04:39 .

[Kardelo]

Silent protagonist - you interact with other characters.

Voiced protagonist - you watch a conversation between two characters.

I'm all for silent protagonist.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

In Exile wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
Shepard is not my Shepard.  Hawke is not my Hawke.  I'd RATHER make my own character, but if it's not my character than please stop half-way pretending it is to try and give me some small consolation. 
I'd rather the Courier I make in New Vegas than Hawke, but I'd also rather play Master Chief than Shepard.  If that makes sense.

Shepard is my character. The apperance, the dialogue chosen, the gender... these things matter tremendously. I get that to you (and Addai, and Brock) RP is about some other kind of features you think you control in-game. 

But I disagree. 

The Courier isn't even a character, IMO. There's nothing there in the game for there to be a character - just a platform for a player to create their own character. 

Fixed.

But I'm curious, everything you've argued for so far seems to come down to taking a fixed protagonist with a baseline personality and just deciding the way in which they say things or making decisions in the story that are consistent with the baseline personality. Is this ideal RP'ing for you?

Modifié par mrcrusty, 07 août 2011 - 04:46 .

[Zanallen]

I think the issue is that In Exile understands that the game doesn't care how you RP your character. It is going to respond how it was designed to respond, up to and including implied tone and intent with dialogue options (voiced or otherwise).

[In Exile]

csfteeeer wrote...
Nothing, but if you're going to ask someone if a silent protagonist doesn't allow for you to make the character be who YOU want, then prove to them how does a voiced does this.

But a voice doesn't. Pure and simple, video-games have this restriction based on the restricted nature of the content. The person I responded to said that VO doesn't let you do this, and I pointed out silent PC's aren't any different.

I don't get what you're trying to get atl.

Silent = No Background?...ejem...



Says "Hi!"

Where did I say "no background?" I said "inventing background" and that's not the same thing at all.

Seriously though,that's blatantly false, it simple depends on the character the writers want to make, whether they want to leave the story of character up to the viewer/player or give them the backstory themselves has absolutely nothing do with Silent Protagonists.

That's not what I said. I said it has to do with what people see as the core of RP, and that based on those they see the essence of a silent protagonist as inventing content. 

To test this, ask how many people would favour a silent protagonist with 1) no dialogue choice 2) fixed tone indicators for text-based writing (all other characters are voiced) and 3) fixed background.

mrcrusty wrote...
Fixed.

You mean, wrecked.

There's no "platform" because there's no opportunity to have a character.

There's no opportunity for any kind of social expression in New Vegas. Sometimes, if you're very lucky, you get to express a belief. Otherwise, you get fixed dialogue that's either a blunt statement, a question, or a potential "I win!" button if you make the correct check. That's not a person. That's barely even a robot. 

Having the game branch off according to your faction score & completed quests does not mean you have a reactive RPG, especially when very little of the content reacts to the why of what you're doing, and there's very little outright exclusive content.  

But I'm curious, everything you've argued for so far seems to come down to taking a fixed protagonist with a baseline personality and just deciding the way in which they say things or making decisions in the story that are consistent with the baseline personality. Is this ideal RP'ing for you?

No. My ideal RP is reactivity. I happen to believe that a fixed background, in conjuction with VO (or clear tone indicators, the extent to which nothing would be ambigious about the protagonist's voice except timbre & pitch) and scripted reactions from the game-world & NPCs based on those features are what create reactive content. 

If I want to play an angry character, the game has to react to the fact my character is angry. If I play a naive character, the game has to react to my character being naive. People don't just react to what we do - they react to how we say what we're about to do, how we come off as (which is not always how we are), etc.

The social dimension is really, really important to having a living character, and most RPGs ignore this entirely. Bioware tries to tackle it, but the problem is combinatorially explosive, so solving it right requires lots of fixed content. 

Modifié par In Exile, 07 août 2011 - 05:26 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

But in many cases, it's literally 1-2 lines before looping back into the conversation proper. So really, it's actually identical to Origins' Coercion and Intimidate skills, except there's Diplomatic, Intimidate and Humorous now.

So really, silent/voiced isn't an issue. It's a matter of how it's written as dialog options.

Also, I find it a bit weird about the NPCs reacting to you. While that's certainly true, it's more of the opposite. You choosing how you react to the NPCs.

Finally, RP isn't limited to dialog options. While New Vegas is not the most comprehensive dialog based RPG (though it does have it's moments in Dead Money, talking about the Legate, interrogating Silus, etc, it's got a pretty comprehensive RPG base.

In Exile wrote...

mrcrusty wrote...
Fixed.

You mean, wrecked.

There's no "platform" because there's no opportunity to have a character.

There's no opportunity for any kind of social expression in New Vegas. Sometimes, if you're very
lucky, you get to express a belief. Otherwise, you get fixed dialogue
that's either a blunt statement, a question, or a potential "I win!"
button if you make the correct check. That's not a person. That's barely
even a robot. 

Of course there is. You just aren't always able to express that with big flashing lights in dialog.

What does following the Legion path say about your character, what does following the NCR say about your character, Independant Vegas? How you deal with all of those factions illuminates certain aspects of your character, the SPECIAL system and perks, are another.

Going Independant for the sake of anarchy and for the sake of altruism is reflected, in how you tackle the problems of Freeside, Outer Vegas, etc. Your motivations are acknowledged by the game, through the ending slides. Admittedly, not the best way but still far more developed than a tonal based personality.

Why, because the personality is only as deep as the tones themeslves. Hinting at any sort of subtlety and complexity with the tone because the character expresses thoughts the player isn't privy too is not the kind of roleplaying I enjoy. Watching a character develop may be fun to you, but not to me.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 07 août 2011 - 05:38 .

[In Exile]

Kardelo wrote...

Silent protagonist - you interact with other characters.

Yeah, I had a great time when I called Duncan a murdering kidnapper for letting my family get murdered and extorting me as a slave in his warrior order. I had an even better time when I told King Cailin that Duncan let the Teyrna of Highever die after forcing what (potentially) was the last living heir of the family into a warrior order that removes him from the line of succession. 

Though the best time was when I went before the Landsmeet and argued how both Anora and Alistair should have been deposed, with the blessed King Cousland (found the Sacred Ashes - clearly blessed by the Maker) ruling in their place.

...Wait, what's that? I couldn't say any of these things? But that would be silly - it'd be almost like with a silent protagonist I wasn't doing the talking. 

[In Exile]

mrcrusty wrote...

But in many cases, it's literally 1-2 lines before looping back into the conversation proper. So really, it's actually identical to Origins' Coercion and Intimidate skills, except there's Diplomatic, Intimidate and Humorous now.

I don't understand. Which lines? The personalities move the conversation forward. Investigate options are just questions. 

So really, silent/voiced isn't an issue. It's a matter of how it's written as dialog options.

Not to your point, I suppose. But to mine, it is. Because VO removes ambiguity. And ambiguity is the antithesis to good RP.

Also, I find it a bit weird about the NPCs reacting to you. While that's certainly true, it's more of the opposite. You choosing how you react to the NPCs.

No. Why would you say that? NPCs react to what you say, and comment on how you said it. That's a step forward for reactivity. NPCs react to what you're like as a character on top of that. And you get options to outright state your beliefs. 

Besides, you're acting as if I think DA2 did a good job on delivering what I want. That's not the case at all. It just did a better job than DA:O. And it actually tried to do the job, unlike the mess that was New Vegas. I'd rather write a fan-fiction than play a game like that, because at least with the fan-fiction, I can actually create a character as opposed to just be forced into a bland everyman (or woman) who is preventing from having friendships or relationships, or parents, or any kind of connection to anything in the game and expressing beliefs or opinions (or hell, make jokes, or be sarcastic, or be... much of anything, really). 

Finally, RP isn't limited to dialog options. While New Vegas is not the most comprehensive dialog based RPG (though it does have it's moments in Dead Money, talking about the Legate, interrogating Silus, etc, it's got a pretty comprehensive RPG base.

Not really. It has skills.. but the skills have no value. They're either "I win!" dialogue buttons, or they're gameplay elements. Which comes back to behaviour and inventing your own content. The fact that I have a strong base in mathematics doesn't say anything about me other than I learned math. It doesn't even tell you whether or not I like math. 

Modifié par In Exile, 07 août 2011 - 05:38 .

[erynnar]

In Exile wrote...

Kardelo wrote...

Silent protagonist - you interact with other characters.

Yeah, I had a great time when I called Duncan a murdering kidnapper for letting my family get murdered and extorting me as a slave in his warrior order. I had an even better time when I told King Cailin that Duncan let the Teyrna of Highever die after forcing what (potentially) was the last living heir of the family into a warrior order that removes him from the line of succession. 

Though the best time was when I went before the Landsmeet and argued how both Anora and Alistair should have been deposed, with the blessed King Cousland (found the Sacred Ashes - clearly blessed by the Maker) ruling in their place.

...Wait, what's that? I couldn't say any of these things? But that would be silly - it'd be almost like with a silent protagonist I wasn't doing the talking. 

You know what ex, you keep bringing up that kind of stuff. As if the voiced protag lets you do any such thing. Which it doesn't. There are limits due to the story. This isn't some write your own game story as you play. All of us, I think understand limits. And you do to.

What you keep trying to do is make as if the voiced protag is sooo much more than it is. You may be able to role play a voiced one better. But I felt and many do (just as many feel the way you do) and prefer playing director to and actor instead of director and actor. 

And no, I your voice protag is not better, nor an evolutionary step up, nor an improvement. It is just a different preference.

Modifié par erynnar, 07 août 2011 - 05:37 .

[erynnar]

Atakuma wrote...

The Silent protagonist always made it feel like there was an extra degree of separation between me and the story. I prefer the voiced PC because they feel like a part of the world rather than avatar.

And I feel that degree of separation from the voiced one. Which is why I say they are equal and one is not better, or a step up, it all boils down to preferences.

[Zjarcal]

Kardelo wrote...

Silent protagonist - you interact with other characters.

Voiced protagonist - you watch a conversation between two characters.

I'm all for silent protagonist.

This is probably the main reason why I disagree so much with people who prefer silent protagonists. When playing silent (or voiced), I never feel it's ME interacting with other characters. It's always my character, not me. Sure, my character is mine, but it's not me.

It's not different for me at all when voiced. Well, except for the conversation being less jarring to me.