987 réponses à ce sujet

[LordKinoda]

I liked voiced PC's & NPC's, But when it comes to DAO & the Warden, I say the only person who should voice my warden is me & no one else. So if Bioware dose bring back are Warden, I say no voice over unless I the player can voice my Warden myself. like by useing the the mics on the PS or XBox head sets. There giving us voice commands for Shepard in ME3, so why not do the same for the Warden.

Indeed. I've long promoted a mod to make it so we can put our own voices onto the protagonists. I know I would love it. I would gladly purchase a decent mike just for this purpose, wouldn't bother me too much if I didn't even use it for anything else.

[Red_Jezzabelle]

I can appreciate both, but for this style of game I much prefer the Voiced PC in DA2 and ME. But I think a lot of that has the do with the fact that the Warden has little to no expression and not the dialogue choices.

[ref]

Silent protagonist for me. I thought the female and male Hawke voice work in DA2 wasn't anything special and it honestly ruined lot of the experience for me among the million other things I won't even get into... the voice works in Mass Effect, but I hated it in DA2.

[Pasquale1234]

Zanallen wrote...

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

After playing Dragon Age 2, i believe voiced player characters restricts dialogue a great deal. It also restricts plot.

Personally, i wouldn't buy another voiced player character RPG. Not until Bioware have the resources to give us as many options and as much choice as a silent PC can. Restricting dialogue and plot, two of the biggest key aspects of RPGs, for the sake of a pretty voice is not something i can appreciate.

I understand other people *can* appreciate it, but i, myself, me, as a die hard RPGamer cannot.

Yeah, no. You had pretty much the same amount of options in DA2 as you did in Origins and the voiced protagonist in no way restricts plot. That's just silly.

Not quite.  A silent protagonist essentially has an infinite number of options, or as many as the player might want to create.  A silent protagonist is not required to deliver the line exactly as written, but can paraphrase, lecture, give monosyllabic or loquacious responses, in whatever way the player desires to role-play the character.  The line you choose from the list really only determines the type of response you get from the NPC.

Voiced protag may not restrict plot, but it certainly does restrict personality characterization and role-play.

[Joy Divison]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Not quite.  A silent protagonist essentially has an infinite number of options, or as many as the player might want to create.  A silent protagonist is not required to deliver the line exactly as written, but can paraphrase, lecture, give monosyllabic or loquacious responses, in whatever way the player desires to role-play the character.  The line you choose from the list really only determines the type of response you get from the NPC.

Voiced protag may not restrict plot, but it certainly does restrict personality characterization and role-play.

I don't understand this argument.  There were many times in DA:O I was annoyed because the 3 or 4 silent printed options did not contain anything near what I wanted to say.  Are you suggesting it is feasible to just make up the response in your head and ignore what button you press (and resultant consequences) yet making up something in your head and ignoring the VO (and resultant consequences) is not?

I don't buy it.

[Barry Bathernak]

poll update:
silent is at 50% with 506 votes
voiced is at 50% with 505 votes

[Pasquale1234]

Joy Divison wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Not quite.  A silent protagonist essentially has an infinite number of options, or as many as the player might want to create.  A silent protagonist is not required to deliver the line exactly as written, but can paraphrase, lecture, give monosyllabic or loquacious responses, in whatever way the player desires to role-play the character.  The line you choose from the list really only determines the type of response you get from the NPC.

Voiced protag may not restrict plot, but it certainly does restrict personality characterization and role-play.

I don't understand this argument.  There were many times in DA:O I was annoyed because the 3 or 4 silent printed options did not contain anything near what I wanted to say.  Are you suggesting it is feasible to just make up the response in your head and ignore what button you press (and resultant consequences) yet making up something in your head and ignoring the VO (and resultant consequences) is not?

I don't buy it.

I'm not quite sure what the disconnect is, but with a silent protag, you can deliver the tone, emotions, and verbiage of your response in whatever way you wish, whatever you feel is appropriate for the character you are role-playing.  You are not limited to what is printed on the dialogue line, and could have chosen to say what you wanted to say.

When you select a response from the options given, you are really choosing the type of reaction you want from the NPC.  One of the simpler, more obvious examples would be the flirt lines.  If you find the printed flirt line to be corny or inappropriate for the character you are role-playing, you could easily role-play your warden to say something entirely different, delivered in whatever way you desire.  You could go into great detail about your entire romantic history and preferences if you wish.  You then select the flirt line as your response, and the NPC reacts accordingly.  The break-up (or turning down romance) options work the same way.  Most of the dialogue choices are simple, one-line verbiage - but if you feel your character would give lengthy explanations of their feelings and reasons, then you could do that.  Once again, clicking on that single-line response would get the desired response from the NPC.  Many (if not most) of the dialogue options can work in the same way.

It is much, much harder to do that with a voiced, fully animated protag - you have to ignore the VO and associated cinematics.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 05 octobre 2011 - 04:20 .

[Giubba]

One of the big problem with silent protagonist is nicely summed up in this strip



I know there is a middle step in a RPG (the text based choice) but the final result is the same no conversation.

Modifié par Giubba1985, 05 octobre 2011 - 05:49 .

[xkg]

^
LMAO what a BS. I do realise that you're trying to prove something here but ... no comments.

Modifié par xkg, 05 octobre 2011 - 06:03 .

[happy_daiz]

@Giubba1985

How funny, I just met that guy yesterday in RAGE! 

Boy, that game is a trip, and illustrates why I personally prefer a voiced protagonist. First of all, you don't get to do any character customization, let alone choose something as simple as...whether you're a guy or a girl (!), and you get to spend the whole game having NPCs talk AT you, instead of to you. There are no dialogue options at all, except to choose "Yes" or "No", which answer whether you want to accept quests or not. Waa. Despite that, the game itself is still fun, so far.

But alas, this thread is in regard to DA, so...nevermind, I digress.

Modifié par happy_daiz, 05 octobre 2011 - 07:29 .

[Joy Divison]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Not quite.  A silent protagonist essentially has an infinite number of options, or as many as the player might want to create.  A silent protagonist is not required to deliver the line exactly as written, but can paraphrase, lecture, give monosyllabic or loquacious responses, in whatever way the player desires to role-play the character.  The line you choose from the list really only determines the type of response you get from the NPC.

Voiced protag may not restrict plot, but it certainly does restrict personality characterization and role-play.

I don't understand this argument.  There were many times in DA:O I was annoyed because the 3 or 4 silent printed options did not contain anything near what I wanted to say.  Are you suggesting it is feasible to just make up the response in your head and ignore what button you press (and resultant consequences) yet making up something in your head and ignoring the VO (and resultant consequences) is not?

I don't buy it.

I'm not quite sure what the disconnect is, but with a silent protag, you can deliver the tone, emotions, and verbiage of your response in whatever way you wish, whatever you feel is appropriate for the character you are role-playing.  You are not limited to what is printed on the dialogue line, and could have chosen to say what you wanted to say.

The disconnect is the same as Voiced.  When you finish the joining ritual in Origins, King Cailen says "I understand congradulations are in order."

The game gives you the following responses:

1. Thank you, your majesty.
2. I didn't really have a choice, really.
3. I don't feel that special.

The only time I felt any of these responses fit my character was during my human origin when #1 was appropriate.  Although #2 might have worked when I was a Dalish elf, I didn't feel like being a sourpuss at the meeting where strategy was discussed.  My Dalish elf most certainly did not want to refer to Cailan as "your majesty" and did feel special so my character wound up saying crap I didn't want her to say.  Just bc/ I don't hear the response through my speakers, doesn't mean the game ignored my response and didn't register it in the game's history.

In DA2, we have the same thing of being presented with 3 unappealing choices, having to pick one, and the game recording that choices and registering it in the game's history.  The only difference is the protagonist is not an emotionless mute, she actually has facial expressions and interacts with the game world.

If your imagination is fertile enough to supply an entire romantic history from a single lined text, then I fail to see how this very same fertile imagination would be hung up over a voicalized responses.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 05 octobre 2011 - 07:00 .

[Pasquale1234]

Joy Divison wrote...

The disconnect is the same as Voiced.  When you finish the joining ritual in Origins, King Cailen says "I understand congradulations are in order."

The game gives you the following responses:

1. Thank you, your majesty.
2. I didn't really have a choice, really.
3. I don't feel that special.

The only time I felt any of these responses fit my character was during my human origin when #1 was appropriate.  Although #2 might have worked when I was a Dalish elf, I didn't feel like being a sourpuss at the meeting where strategy was discussed.  My Dalish elf most certainly did not want to refer to Cailan as "your majesty" and did feel special so my character wound up saying crap I didn't want her to say.  Just bc/ I don't hear the response through my speakers, doesn't mean the game ignored my response and didn't register it in the game's history.

And it also doesn't change the fact that your Warden could have responded using whatever kind of language or verbiage best suits that Warden, if you so choose to play it that way.  I've already said - a couple of times - that the response you choose from among the available selections does dictate how the NPC will react.

You are never going to have an infinite number of types of responses available from an NPC, and yes, there will always be some restrictions on that.  But you can still allow your protag much greater freedom of expression.

In DA2, we have the same thing of being presented with 3 unappealing choices, having to pick one, and the game recording that choices and registering it in the game's history.  The only difference is the protagonist is not an emotionless mute, she actually has facial expressions and interacts with the game world.

Yes, and quite a few people have indicated that they felt Hawke's reactions were not always aligned with the way they felt their Hawke would have reacted.  That is the risk anytime they show a full-on cinematic of the protag.  That is why I tend to prefer over-the-shoulder, first-personish types of views - it's easy to focus on the NPC with whom I am conversing, just as one would do IRL.

If your imagination is fertile enough to supply an entire romantic history from a single lined text, then I fail to see how this very same fertile imagination would be hung up over a voicalized responses.

It's not impossible, but a major hassle because one then has to ignore all of the protag's spoken lines along with the cinematics.  It is much, much easier to be fully immersed in a story and character if you don't have to constantly go back and forth between ignoring the sound and video and then again paying attention to it.

I understand that many people feel that they can happily and successfuly enjoy role-playing a character with full-on voice and cinematics.  I feel like more of an observer / movie director than an actor in that situation, and greatly prefer non-voiced protags with over-the-shoulder views.

[Joy Divison]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

And it also doesn't change the fact that your Warden could have responded using whatever kind of language or verbiage best suits that Warden, if you so choose to play it that way.  I've already said - a couple of times - that the response you choose from among the available selections does dictate how the NPC will react.

Everything you said makes sense, even if I don't agree with it, except for this.  You seem to be suggesting that because what a player's silent protagonist is just text, the player is free to use their imagination to formulate an response and role-play the game as if they said what they wanted to say instead of the text they entered.

How exactly does this work when the NPC reacts to the text rather than what's in your imagination?

[stragonar]

Joy Divison wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

And it also doesn't change the fact that your Warden could have responded using whatever kind of language or verbiage best suits that Warden, if you so choose to play it that way.  I've already said - a couple of times - that the response you choose from among the available selections does dictate how the NPC will react.

Everything you said makes sense, even if I don't agree with it, except for this.  You seem to be suggesting that because what a player's silent protagonist is just text, the player is free to use their imagination to formulate an response and role-play the game as if they said what they wanted to say instead of the text they entered.

How exactly does this work when the NPC reacts to the text rather than what's in your imagination?

It doesn't. Question really is whether the reaction is open to interpretation as well. This is why some of people still prefer completely text based interaction over silent protags with voiced reaction. If the NPC reaction is voiced, then it becomes a problem. Unfortunately no one wants to go back to the old no-voice-whatsoever days and I think the devs realize that so they pursued the voiced protag. That said, I still prefer silent protag, not all imagination is lost in one way voice interaction, just most of it.

edit: thought I'd add that "I don't really feel that special" seemed to fit just fine for a dwarf noble origin imo.

Modifié par stragonar, 06 octobre 2011 - 04:16 .

[Ponendus]

I think a lot of the issues with intention (note I said 'a lot', not 'all') behind the lines of dialogue were solved by the icons that indicated the 'tone' that were implemented in DA2. My thing is: I like the silent protagonist so that I can lend my own voice to my character, but I also like the icons, because then at least we can 'guess' better at what the npc's reaction to the line will be; and we can be in sync with the writers of the game in the best way possible. Having said that, I didn't really mind if the reaction was completely unexpected though - people in the real world often react to things in unpredicatable ways. That just makes it all more realistic for me.

So my ideal scenario is: silent protagonist + intention icons + full line of text (not abbreviated) + voiced npc's = happy me.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Joy Divison wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

And it also doesn't change the fact that your Warden could have responded using whatever kind of language or verbiage best suits that Warden, if you so choose to play it that way.  I've already said - a couple of times - that the response you choose from among the available selections does dictate how the NPC will react.

Everything you said makes sense, even if I don't agree with it, except for this.  You seem to be suggesting that because what a player's silent protagonist is just text, the player is free to use their imagination to formulate an response and role-play the game as if they said what they wanted to say instead of the text they entered.

How exactly does this work when the NPC reacts to the text rather than what's in your imagination?

Nope.. She means you can set the tone. You don't change what is said - you change HOW it's said.

1) Thank you your majesty (polite)
2) Thank you your majesty (sarcastic)
3) Thank you your majesty (snide)
4) Thank you your majesty (pridefull)

Now, the person you're talking to will always react the same - he will pick one interpretation. But people in real life often don't get your tone either, so that is not an issue.
At no point does the game directly conflict that my warden was polite/sarcastic/whatever

When it comes to a voiced protagonist, the game does in fact tell you in detail.

With a voiced protagonist you have to work agaisnt the game. With a silent one, you don't.

[Monica83]

of course silent because voiced means less dialogue option less customization...

[Joy Divison]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nope.. She means you can set the tone. You don't change what is said - you change HOW it's said.

1) Thank you your majesty (polite)
2) Thank you your majesty (sarcastic)
3) Thank you your majesty (snide)
4) Thank you your majesty (pridefull)

Now, the person you're talking to will always react the same - he will pick one interpretation. But people in real life often don't get your tone either, so that is not an issue.
At no point does the game directly conflict that my warden was polite/sarcastic/whatever

When it comes to a voiced protagonist, the game does in fact tell you in detail.

With a voiced protagonist you have to work agaisnt the game. With a silent one, you don't.

This still doesn't work. You said it yourself - "the person you're talking to will always react the same"

If I'm snide to King Cailen and he reacts as if I was polite, that breaks immersion and is just as bad as saying crap I didn't want to say.

Try a field experiment to get my point.  Intentionally speed pass a dozen or so cops on an interstate and when they ask, "Do you know why I pulled you over?"  try 6 snide remarks and try 6 polite remarks and see how that works out for you.

[Pasquale1234]

Joy Divison wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

And it also doesn't change the fact that your Warden could have responded using whatever kind of language or verbiage best suits that Warden, if you so choose to play it that way.  I've already said - a couple of times - that the response you choose from among the available selections does dictate how the NPC will react.

Everything you said makes sense, even if I don't agree with it, except for this.  You seem to be suggesting that because what a player's silent protagonist is just text, the player is free to use their imagination to formulate an response and role-play the game as if they said what they wanted to say instead of the text they entered.

How exactly does this work when the NPC reacts to the text rather than what's in your imagination?

Most of the dialogue lines provided for the Warden are simple and succinct, and allow for greater latitude for role-playing exposition. You can embellish those lines quite a bit if you wish, and also role-play delivering with them with quite a wide variety of different types of body language and / or gesturing, as is suitable for the Warden you are playing. Hawke's lines are all chosen via paraphrases, which are then translated into a much more verbose, conversational spoken line (or several), complete with cinematic animation.

I think the best way to explain may be by providing some examples. I don't have exact dialogue lines in front of me, and am doing this from memory, so please excuse any inaccuracies. So here is a brief example of a female Warden's conversation with Leliana when the Warden wants to initiate romance with her:

Warden: "And do you enjoy the company of other women?" (this is the line you select)

Some examples of dialogue that you might role-play instead of the line provided:

 "Hmmm... very interesting.... now I find myself wondering about this cloistered sister, so full of intrigue and possibilities. Am I correct in my impression that you are inclined to enjoy spending, um, quality alone time with other women?"

 "Whoa, wait a sec... are you saying you have sex with other women?"

Leliana: "What would you say if I do?"

Warden: "I think I might giggle and maybe look coy."  (this is the line you select)

Some alternate examples of dialogue you might role-play instead of the line provided:

"Well, I might ask you for all the juicy details so we could compare notes about past girlfriends and maybe get to know each other a whole lot better."

"I'm gonna go spruce myself up so maybe you'll hit on me."

Similarly, one can also greatly embellish the break-up or romantic overture rejection lines provided.  A  few examples:

"I really like you and find you attractive, but I'm not over <previous love>, and not ready to get involved with anyone else just now."

"With all of the responsibility on my shoulders, I can't afford the distraction, so - no. I'm sorry."

"You're not my type. We'll drop by the Pearl again soon, if you're in need."

A lot of the dialogue options throughout the game can work in the same way.  You select the succinct response line provided, but can embellish and deliver it in whatever way would best suit your personal playstyle and the Warden you are role-playing.

I won't say it's impossible to do this kind of role-playing with Hawke, but it is very difficult and not worth the effort, imho. You can really only choose a tone / paraphrase, and since they don't always match what Hawke actually
says, it is pretty hard to come up with another way of saying it before Hawke actually delivers it - and at that point, you need to be paying attention to the NPC's response.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 06 octobre 2011 - 03:19 .

[Cutlasskiwi]

Joy Divison wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nope.. She means you can set the tone. You don't change what is said - you change HOW it's said.

1) Thank you your majesty (polite)
2) Thank you your majesty (sarcastic)
3) Thank you your majesty (snide)
4) Thank you your majesty (pridefull)

Now, the person you're talking to will always react the same - he will pick one interpretation. But people in real life often don't get your tone either, so that is not an issue.
At no point does the game directly conflict that my warden was polite/sarcastic/whatever

When it comes to a voiced protagonist, the game does in fact tell you in detail.

With a voiced protagonist you have to work agaisnt the game. With a silent one, you don't.

This still doesn't work. You said it yourself - "the person you're talking to will always react the same"

If I'm snide to King Cailen and he reacts as if I was polite, that breaks immersion and is just as bad as saying crap I didn't want to say.

Agreed. It would be different if the NPC's stayed mostly quiet like in Baldur's Gate.

And for me it is a big issue when there's a misunderstanding. In real life when that happens I correct it or explain what I meant. So I find the whole 'immagine the tone' approach to be very immersion breaking most of the time.  

[Pasquale1234]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nope.. She means you can set the tone. You don't change what is said - you change HOW it's said.

She is quite capable of speaking for herself, thanks.  That is not what I meant - at all.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 06 octobre 2011 - 05:19 .

[LordKinoda]

Nope.. She means you can set the tone. You don't change what is said - you change HOW it's ]said.

1) Thank you your majesty (polite)
2) Thank you your majesty (sarcastic)
3) Thank you your majesty (snide)
4) Thank you your majesty (pridefull)

Now, the person you're talking to will always react the same - he will pick one interpretation. But people in real life often don't get your tone either, so that is not an issue.
At no point does the game directly conflict that my warden was polite/sarcastic/whatever

When it comes to a voiced protagonist, the game does in fact tell you in detail.

With a voiced protagonist you have to work agaisnt the game. With a silent one, you don't.

You are just shooting yourself in the foot here. That's what TONE means. HOW you SAY it. Not how you INTERPRET it. People ALWAYS get how you SAY something. (Let's leave idiosyncratic misunderstandings out of this because no game has ever gone into so much detail). That's what the TONE of dialog does. Slient CANNOT do this. Period.

In your own mind, sure it can. But it's IRRELEVANT for the conversation in a game because the NPC can only respond a certain way to given dialog line. Ugh, I don't know how many other ways this can be said. It seems you guys are just unwilling to accept an indisputable fact. Plenty of other things I've personally said, and plenty of other things said in this thread can be considered opinion. But it is a FACT that a voiced protagonist can CLEARLY portray the tone of a dialog line and a silent one CANNOT.

[seraphymon]

Its not a fact. want to know why? because it can work with silent protag too, it would be simple to just add the icon or something in paranthesis saying or somethign that says this line represents this tone or in this matter. All voice does in a game is hearing the person speak, and hearing the actual emotion.

[LordKinoda]

Its not a fact. want to know why? because it can work with silent protag too, it would be simple to just add the icon or something in paranthesis saying or somethign that says this line represents this tone or in this matter. All voice does in a game is hearing the person speak, and hearing the actual emotion.

Agreed. But that's not the argument in this particular instance is it ? Adding an icon to represent the tone of the given line does show what is intended. But if one were to do that, why would you want to keep the character silent at all ? Having them voiced negates having to include the icon in the first place. They did both for DA2, but I'll still always feel that BOTH are not necessary. Others will disagree because they are incapable of discerning intent from the paraphrases.