Both share the label "role-playing game". That means that both still stand to learn from each other. And considering the situation, I'd say cRPGs have more to learn from PnP than the opposite.In Exile wrote...
It doesn't. That's not what I said. I said that a cRPG is not a PnP RPG.We can apply the very simple rule of ''if they don't have the same name, they are likely not the same thing'' to avoid the quandry that you're in.
What is your actual opinion on Voiced/Silent protagonist? - with POLL.
Débuté par
Hello There
, août 06 2011 08:32
#126
Posté 07 août 2011 - 02:55
Xewaka
-
- Members
- 3 739 messages
Retour en haut
#127
Posté 07 août 2011 - 03:01
A Crusty Knight Of Colour
-
- Members
- 7 455 messages
No, it had to do with Emergent gameplay.In Exile wrote...
but that has nothing to do with role-playing.
In Exile wrote...
It says nothing about me that some particular consequence of events happened... because that consequence is perfectly viable for multiple characters.
Bringing me back to:
mrcrusty wrote...
So, to you, the act of actually playing is unimportant?
In Exile wrote...
No. But head-cannon is unimportant. What matters is what you can do, and how the game reacts to what you can do.
Yet for some reason, I'm not imagining that the NCR cares about whether you wore a disguise, laid down some mines, then lured him out or took Caesar head on in melee combat, among the other methods. Even assuming they'd know in the first place.
Funnily enough, if you decide to kill Caesar via the Auto-Doc, medicine and speech oriented characters can kill him without running afoul of the Legion, unlike if you were to take him head on. So it does react differently depending on how you take him out.
While I agree in bare principle that it is better the way you describe, actually being given the opportunity to play through it with vastly different results based on your skillset, your plan and what you actually do is hardly unimportant.
Out of curiosity, have you played Heavy Rain?
Modifié par mrcrusty, 07 août 2011 - 03:13 .
#128
Posté 07 août 2011 - 03:11
erynnar
-
- Members
- 3 010 messages
[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]erynnar wrote...
Apparently ambiguous to you, I get that. And others who prefer a voiced protag. Again, is it so hard to believe, that it isn't all that ambiguous to me or those of us who don't like a voiced protag?[/quote]
Yes. Because "I pick my own tone and I am the director" is very different from "I know it's impossible to pick my own tone and I try to identify the tone the writers predetermined for me."
That's what I'm challenging.
[quote]I have had no problems playing DAO and getting which dialogue choice may get me what response, or what personality. Why does that cause such incredulity to you? [/quote]
Per the above. There is a difference between you thinking you can pick your own tone, and you knowing the predetermined tone and behaviour that the writers created.
[quote]I rarely have odd responses from NPCs. Is it 100 %? Nope. But I have a lot less "surprise" than with the voiced protag and the stupidly paraphrased choiceds on DA2. Do I find it difficult that some people navigated it better than me? Nope. Obviously, people did. Good on them. I don't demand that they teach me their techinques in such durogatory tone as if it just defies all belief. They do, I don't. I did fine in DAO, you didn't. Sorry. [/quote]
No; you use a derogatory tone when you describe the personality tones. It's snark for snark, silly.
[quote]mrcrusty wrote...
Unless you've got emergent gameplay, but that's another aspect of things you don't like.
[/quote]
What do you mean? There's no such thing as "emergent" gameplay. It's impossible in games.
[quote]J.C. Blade wrote...
I do not think that. We all have characters that don't really make sense for the game's story but we still want to guide them through it. If I absolutely want to play a Warden who doesn't want to be one then I'll switch off the machine after joining and assume she died.[/quote]
What does this have to do with the original point I responded to?
[quote]You're putting dialogue up again and I wasn't taking about that at all. I'm saying how the game will show three, well four, crucial events in Hawke's life and tell the player to Lego the rest but only so long it doesn't contradict those key moments. I know it sounds similar to what you essentially do with the silent protagonist but it isn't. Creating background for a silent protagonist is not the same as filling those monstrous gaps within the game itself. At least not for me.[/quote]
But fans of silent VO argue precisely for this. That in conversation, you fill in the blanks (because there are blanks).
And DA:O was the same way as DA2, just apparently over a shorter scale. Wynne talks about "months" that went by during your quest. But do you see these months? Do you even see more than a few days pass?
I appreciate that you really, really disliked DA2's way of handling this. But it seems to me that the writers left these games without described precisely to allow people to "fill-in-the-blanks" which they've argued is something really important to RP for them.
[quote]In DAO I have only to imagine and create the background and personality of a single character and how that will affect choices within that one year time span of the game - will she or won't she save the kid in Redcliff for example. [/quote]
I appreciate that, like I said. But people will argue that in DA:O you had to do much more (e.g. imagine side conversations with NPCs in your party, and that's the fun of an RPG).
[quote]In DA2 I have to create Hawke’s life in Lothering and her sentiments towards her family - fair enough, it is the beginning of your character; then Hawke’s first year in Kirkwall, how it went and what made her reach the top, the missions, the people she met; then those three years after deep roads, then the next 3…
If I were actually writing a fanfiction story about Hawke all this blankness would be excellent. [/quote]
No, you don't. No more than you have to describe what it was that happened to the Warden while travelling from Denerim to Orzammar or Haven. Did Alistair have fun? How did they eat? What did Sandal do? Was Morrigain complaining about how useless the trip was? What about Sten?
[quote]xkg wrote...
Why are we even discussing it. Those who can't immerse themselves while playing silent protagonist ... well RPGs aren't for them. Because that how it is in RL.[/quote]
In RL you can't hear your own voice? In RL you have to pick from 3-5 predetermined placards that define what you are going to say?
[quote]While playing live session you can hear the voice of other players and NPCs (spoken by the gamemaster) but you can't hear yours.[/quote]
Again, you can't hear your own voice? What?
[quote]If you can't do it in the computer game you can't do it in RL.[/quote]
....Wait, what? This makes even less sense than the stuff before.
[quote]So why bother with cRPGs in the first place. There are some limitations like - I can't say whatever I want, I can't do whatever I want - that can't be implemented in computer version - but if we change every aspect of real PnP RPGs just for sake of changes - that is not RPG anymore. In fact it is getting closer and closer to some cinematic adventure games.[/quote]
Who cares what a PnP RPG is like?
[/quote]
I pick the nuance of the tone as opposed to say a director directing a voice actor and (quite possibly doing multiple tones, who knows, but I would think so) and the devs or whomever picking which ones to go with. I pick the nuance of the tone, is my snarky Cousland going to deliver that line mean snarky, happy go lucky snarky, derogatory snarky? I choose. Again, I didn't run into problems that often in DAO, still don't.
Now, which intent did the director pick? And for which lines? Did they call up every writer before the did the lines and ask them, hey, what was your intent on this line? Did they same time them? Email them? Did they have notes on the intent? Or did the director just direct the actor to do different nuances to tone (or did they not due to time constraints?) Since there are a lot of writers I doubt very much that they did. I could be wrong.
So you pick regardless of what the writers intent was, or the director does. You have no more idea of what the writer's intent was either way.
And I am not intending to be snarky. I am endeavoring to point out you are neither right, nor wrong, nor is voiced a step up, or revolutionary. I am neither right, nor wrong and silent isn't a dinosaur.
For me, it's degrees of seperation from actually stepping into the skin of the avatar and reacting in the world as if I was there.
1) I have a voiced PC whose responses are not what I intended (a few of the snarky comments were more cruel and mean than the red button ones) This pushes me out of the game and reminds me that I am not in that world and a part of it.
2) I am forced t watch movies that pop up. Kind of like remembering a trip to the Grand Canyon where I looked over the edge, remembering how the wind felt, how my heart raced vs watching a video my dad took of me doing that. Instead of feeling what I felt, I watched how the camera caught the moment.
Again this separates me from the avatar and pushes me outside the game while I watch a movie reminding me I am not there.
3) I have a set voice, a unique voice, but I can't create a different face to go with it (all my Hawkes looked the same) because to me that is just weird. Human voices are just as unique as their faces. They may be imitated, but they belong to that person as much as their eye shape and size of their nose. Again, this kept me from stepping into the skin of the avatar and making them my interface. It was an actor I directed and watched. And what if that voice is unpleasant to the player, as others have mentioned? Well, then even more separation.
4) The personality of my Hawke is not subtle. If I picked snarky purple 9 times, diplomatic blue 4 times, and angry red 2 times, then the cut away cinematics are going to make my Hawke a snarky person. Now that becomes a problem when it is cruel, mean, or douchey to be snarky. And I would have preferred my Hawke to have been blue diplomatic in that scene, but I can't because the computer says I pikced purple 9 times, so my Hawke is going to be a snarky inappropriate douche bag at that moment. My Cousland didn't have that problem, her personality was subtle and filled with nuance. If I came on a situation where she'd be diplomatic instead of snarky she was.
Again, was that perfect? Nope not one hundred percent, but what in life is except no one gets out alive? Or that and maybe taxes. And again, the percentage of me running across a moment where the choice and the NPC didn't match up for me? 2% maybe 3%. So, 98 to 97% of the time what I picked fit. WIth DA2? I'll be generous and say 80%, though it didn't feel that high.
What does this all boil down to? Feelings. This is how DA2's voiced protag made me feel. Is it right? Nope. Is it wrong? Nope. It just is.
And I for people who love voiced, please forgive me for not listing some of the degrees of separation for you guys. I was afraid I might miss some, or get them wrong. I know you have them too. And they make you feel separated from the game too. I know they do.
So none of us are right, or wrong. It is just preference. And again, voiced protag people, lucky you, BioWare agrees and you get to feel connected to the game and that your avatar is yours. You'll feel close to them, and more in tune with them, and I will be where you were with DAO. I will have an actor, or a doll that I am directing not actually playing. And so it goes. And so you all don't think I am pushing the snarky purple button...
to all!
Oh and ex...you can challenge the I pick my own tone, but you will never win the argument , because it isn't an argument. Since you can't crawl inside my head to know how I do that, it is what it is. It may baffle you, and you may choose not to believe it or believe it's possible, but apparently it is. And not just for me.
[quote]erynnar wrote...
Apparently ambiguous to you, I get that. And others who prefer a voiced protag. Again, is it so hard to believe, that it isn't all that ambiguous to me or those of us who don't like a voiced protag?[/quote]
Yes. Because "I pick my own tone and I am the director" is very different from "I know it's impossible to pick my own tone and I try to identify the tone the writers predetermined for me."
That's what I'm challenging.
[quote]I have had no problems playing DAO and getting which dialogue choice may get me what response, or what personality. Why does that cause such incredulity to you? [/quote]
Per the above. There is a difference between you thinking you can pick your own tone, and you knowing the predetermined tone and behaviour that the writers created.
[quote]I rarely have odd responses from NPCs. Is it 100 %? Nope. But I have a lot less "surprise" than with the voiced protag and the stupidly paraphrased choiceds on DA2. Do I find it difficult that some people navigated it better than me? Nope. Obviously, people did. Good on them. I don't demand that they teach me their techinques in such durogatory tone as if it just defies all belief. They do, I don't. I did fine in DAO, you didn't. Sorry. [/quote]
No; you use a derogatory tone when you describe the personality tones. It's snark for snark, silly.
[quote]mrcrusty wrote...
Unless you've got emergent gameplay, but that's another aspect of things you don't like.
[/quote]
What do you mean? There's no such thing as "emergent" gameplay. It's impossible in games.
[quote]J.C. Blade wrote...
I do not think that. We all have characters that don't really make sense for the game's story but we still want to guide them through it. If I absolutely want to play a Warden who doesn't want to be one then I'll switch off the machine after joining and assume she died.[/quote]
What does this have to do with the original point I responded to?
[quote]You're putting dialogue up again and I wasn't taking about that at all. I'm saying how the game will show three, well four, crucial events in Hawke's life and tell the player to Lego the rest but only so long it doesn't contradict those key moments. I know it sounds similar to what you essentially do with the silent protagonist but it isn't. Creating background for a silent protagonist is not the same as filling those monstrous gaps within the game itself. At least not for me.[/quote]
But fans of silent VO argue precisely for this. That in conversation, you fill in the blanks (because there are blanks).
And DA:O was the same way as DA2, just apparently over a shorter scale. Wynne talks about "months" that went by during your quest. But do you see these months? Do you even see more than a few days pass?
I appreciate that you really, really disliked DA2's way of handling this. But it seems to me that the writers left these games without described precisely to allow people to "fill-in-the-blanks" which they've argued is something really important to RP for them.
[quote]In DAO I have only to imagine and create the background and personality of a single character and how that will affect choices within that one year time span of the game - will she or won't she save the kid in Redcliff for example. [/quote]
I appreciate that, like I said. But people will argue that in DA:O you had to do much more (e.g. imagine side conversations with NPCs in your party, and that's the fun of an RPG).
[quote]In DA2 I have to create Hawke’s life in Lothering and her sentiments towards her family - fair enough, it is the beginning of your character; then Hawke’s first year in Kirkwall, how it went and what made her reach the top, the missions, the people she met; then those three years after deep roads, then the next 3…
If I were actually writing a fanfiction story about Hawke all this blankness would be excellent. [/quote]
No, you don't. No more than you have to describe what it was that happened to the Warden while travelling from Denerim to Orzammar or Haven. Did Alistair have fun? How did they eat? What did Sandal do? Was Morrigain complaining about how useless the trip was? What about Sten?
[quote]xkg wrote...
Why are we even discussing it. Those who can't immerse themselves while playing silent protagonist ... well RPGs aren't for them. Because that how it is in RL.[/quote]
In RL you can't hear your own voice? In RL you have to pick from 3-5 predetermined placards that define what you are going to say?
[quote]While playing live session you can hear the voice of other players and NPCs (spoken by the gamemaster) but you can't hear yours.[/quote]
Again, you can't hear your own voice? What?
[quote]If you can't do it in the computer game you can't do it in RL.[/quote]
....Wait, what? This makes even less sense than the stuff before.
[quote]So why bother with cRPGs in the first place. There are some limitations like - I can't say whatever I want, I can't do whatever I want - that can't be implemented in computer version - but if we change every aspect of real PnP RPGs just for sake of changes - that is not RPG anymore. In fact it is getting closer and closer to some cinematic adventure games.[/quote]
Who cares what a PnP RPG is like?
[/quote]
I pick the nuance of the tone as opposed to say a director directing a voice actor and (quite possibly doing multiple tones, who knows, but I would think so) and the devs or whomever picking which ones to go with. I pick the nuance of the tone, is my snarky Cousland going to deliver that line mean snarky, happy go lucky snarky, derogatory snarky? I choose. Again, I didn't run into problems that often in DAO, still don't.
Now, which intent did the director pick? And for which lines? Did they call up every writer before the did the lines and ask them, hey, what was your intent on this line? Did they same time them? Email them? Did they have notes on the intent? Or did the director just direct the actor to do different nuances to tone (or did they not due to time constraints?) Since there are a lot of writers I doubt very much that they did. I could be wrong.
So you pick regardless of what the writers intent was, or the director does. You have no more idea of what the writer's intent was either way.
And I am not intending to be snarky. I am endeavoring to point out you are neither right, nor wrong, nor is voiced a step up, or revolutionary. I am neither right, nor wrong and silent isn't a dinosaur.
For me, it's degrees of seperation from actually stepping into the skin of the avatar and reacting in the world as if I was there.
1) I have a voiced PC whose responses are not what I intended (a few of the snarky comments were more cruel and mean than the red button ones) This pushes me out of the game and reminds me that I am not in that world and a part of it.
2) I am forced t watch movies that pop up. Kind of like remembering a trip to the Grand Canyon where I looked over the edge, remembering how the wind felt, how my heart raced vs watching a video my dad took of me doing that. Instead of feeling what I felt, I watched how the camera caught the moment.
Again this separates me from the avatar and pushes me outside the game while I watch a movie reminding me I am not there.
3) I have a set voice, a unique voice, but I can't create a different face to go with it (all my Hawkes looked the same) because to me that is just weird. Human voices are just as unique as their faces. They may be imitated, but they belong to that person as much as their eye shape and size of their nose. Again, this kept me from stepping into the skin of the avatar and making them my interface. It was an actor I directed and watched. And what if that voice is unpleasant to the player, as others have mentioned? Well, then even more separation.
4) The personality of my Hawke is not subtle. If I picked snarky purple 9 times, diplomatic blue 4 times, and angry red 2 times, then the cut away cinematics are going to make my Hawke a snarky person. Now that becomes a problem when it is cruel, mean, or douchey to be snarky. And I would have preferred my Hawke to have been blue diplomatic in that scene, but I can't because the computer says I pikced purple 9 times, so my Hawke is going to be a snarky inappropriate douche bag at that moment. My Cousland didn't have that problem, her personality was subtle and filled with nuance. If I came on a situation where she'd be diplomatic instead of snarky she was.
Again, was that perfect? Nope not one hundred percent, but what in life is except no one gets out alive? Or that and maybe taxes. And again, the percentage of me running across a moment where the choice and the NPC didn't match up for me? 2% maybe 3%. So, 98 to 97% of the time what I picked fit. WIth DA2? I'll be generous and say 80%, though it didn't feel that high.
What does this all boil down to? Feelings. This is how DA2's voiced protag made me feel. Is it right? Nope. Is it wrong? Nope. It just is.
And I for people who love voiced, please forgive me for not listing some of the degrees of separation for you guys. I was afraid I might miss some, or get them wrong. I know you have them too. And they make you feel separated from the game too. I know they do.
So none of us are right, or wrong. It is just preference. And again, voiced protag people, lucky you, BioWare agrees and you get to feel connected to the game and that your avatar is yours. You'll feel close to them, and more in tune with them, and I will be where you were with DAO. I will have an actor, or a doll that I am directing not actually playing. And so it goes. And so you all don't think I am pushing the snarky purple button...
to all!Oh and ex...you can challenge the I pick my own tone, but you will never win the argument , because it isn't an argument. Since you can't crawl inside my head to know how I do that, it is what it is. It may baffle you, and you may choose not to believe it or believe it's possible, but apparently it is. And not just for me.
Modifié par erynnar, 07 août 2011 - 03:20 .
#129
Posté 07 août 2011 - 03:15
dheer
-
- Members
- 705 messages
#130
Posté 07 août 2011 - 03:21
BlueMagitek
-
- Members
- 3 583 messages
It depends on the game. In the Fallout series or Elder Scrolls, silent protagonist is the way to go. The writers generally do a great job with lines for your character and even include changes based on how you built your character (more Fallout than ES, admittedly; low int runs ftw). It also worked out great in VtM:Bloodlines, based on how you built your character and what species you were (Malk runs ftw).
But voiced protagonists work too; I can quite happily pop Tales of Symphonia or Vesperia in, play them and enjoy them just fine. You don't get as many choices with what the character is and you usually don't get to radically alter the game with choices, but they still make for an enjoyable experience.
When it comes down to it, I'd say that when I play a silent protagonist, it is much easier for me to slip into his shoes, be he Bhaalspawn, Nerevarine, Chosen One, Fledgling Vamp, etc. The dialog usually has more branches that let you roleplay out your character.
Voiced protagonist isn't bad, but I know that the character I'm controlling isn't mine; Cecil isn't mine, Lloyd isn't mine, J.C. Denton isn't mine (though he does have a lot of options and he gets props for that), etc. Shepard isn't really mine either, but that may be due more to the dialog wheel than anything, where he'll do something unexpected.
But voiced protagonists work too; I can quite happily pop Tales of Symphonia or Vesperia in, play them and enjoy them just fine. You don't get as many choices with what the character is and you usually don't get to radically alter the game with choices, but they still make for an enjoyable experience.
When it comes down to it, I'd say that when I play a silent protagonist, it is much easier for me to slip into his shoes, be he Bhaalspawn, Nerevarine, Chosen One, Fledgling Vamp, etc. The dialog usually has more branches that let you roleplay out your character.
Voiced protagonist isn't bad, but I know that the character I'm controlling isn't mine; Cecil isn't mine, Lloyd isn't mine, J.C. Denton isn't mine (though he does have a lot of options and he gets props for that), etc. Shepard isn't really mine either, but that may be due more to the dialog wheel than anything, where he'll do something unexpected.
#131
Posté 07 août 2011 - 03:22
erynnar
-
- Members
- 3 010 messages
dheer wrote...
Well put. How can these people not embrace the future?Babli wrote...
I just repeat myself from other thread.
Silent protagonist doesnt work nowadays. Its thing of the past and has no future. True Story.
Since the image can't be found dheer, I can't tell if you're being snarky or agreeing with them.ROFL!
#132
Posté 07 août 2011 - 03:26
erynnar
-
- Members
- 3 010 messages
BlueMagitek wrote...
It depends on the game. In the Fallout series or Elder Scrolls, silent protagonist is the way to go. The writers generally do a great job with lines for your character and even include changes based on how you built your character (more Fallout than ES, admittedly; low int runs ftw). It also worked out great in VtM:Bloodlines, based on how you built your character and what species you were (Malk runs ftw).
But voiced protagonists work too; I can quite happily pop Tales of Symphonia or Vesperia in, play them and enjoy them just fine. You don't get as many choices with what the character is and you usually don't get to radically alter the game with choices, but they still make for an enjoyable experience.
When it comes down to it, I'd say that when I play a silent protagonist, it is much easier for me to slip into his shoes, be he Bhaalspawn, Nerevarine, Chosen One, Fledgling Vamp, etc. The dialog usually has more branches that let you roleplay out your character.
Voiced protagonist isn't bad, but I know that the character I'm controlling isn't mine; Cecil isn't mine, Lloyd isn't mine, J.C. Denton isn't mine (though he does have a lot of options and he gets props for that), etc. Shepard isn't really mine either, but that may be due more to the dialog wheel than anything, where he'll do something unexpected.
Well said Blue, I do like Geralt and he is a voiced fixed protag. ME series has theirs. Voiced can work and does. I like playing TW2. But Geralt isn't mine. And since my face customization on Hawke is limited, for me, due to voice, she becomes like Geralt. Not mine, not a skin I can actually step into. Now, did I enjoy Legacy? Yep, and Hawke was still voiced and not mine. I just don't enjoy it as much as stepping into the skin of the silent one and being them.
#133
Posté 07 août 2011 - 03:31
Zubie
-
- Members
- 867 messages
I don't care what they do as long as they do it well. Really haven't been impressed with Bioware's use of the voiced protagonist so far though.
Nevertheless, were stuck with voiced PCs for good. Dark times indeed.
Nevertheless, were stuck with voiced PCs for good. Dark times indeed.
Modifié par easygame88, 07 août 2011 - 03:34 .
#134
Posté 07 août 2011 - 03:33
xkg
-
- Members
- 3 744 messages
In Exile wrote...
Again, you can't hear your own voice? What?
Last time i heard people can't hear their own voice.
For example: to find how how does one's voice sound like he need to record it first and then listen to it.
But maybe you have some supernatural abilities, i dont know
Modifié par xkg, 07 août 2011 - 03:34 .
#137
Posté 07 août 2011 - 03:46
erynnar
-
- Members
- 3 010 messages
xkg wrote...
In Exile wrote...
Again, you can't hear your own voice? What?
Last time i heard people can't hear their own voice.
For example: to find how how does one's voice sound like he need to record it first and then listen to it.
But maybe you have some supernatural abilities, i dont know
Your true voice, yes. You don't hear your true voice due to our vocal cords imbedded in flesh and ligaments set low in our throats with our ears hearing a deeper tone than what we really sound like due to location and distance to the eardrum. I like how I sound to me, but I think my recorded/true voice, sounds like Minnie Mouse with a head cold, sad to say.
#139
Posté 07 août 2011 - 03:51
In Exile
-
- Members
- 28 738 messages
Xewaka wrote...
Both share the label "role-playing game". That means that both still stand to learn from each other. And considering the situation, I'd say cRPGs have more to learn from PnP than the opposite.
Football and basketball both share the word ''ball'' but that doesn't mean 1) they're very much alike except superficially; 2) they have anything to learn from each other; 3) they should learn anything from each other.
They both share the words 'role' and 'playing' but the modifier 'computer' and 'pen and paper' differentiate them in the same way that 'foot' and 'basket' differentiate ball.
mrcrusty wrote...
No, it had to do with Emergent gameplay.
I still don't understand why you brought up emergent gameplay.
And yet if they were giving you a medal, they wouldn't say '...and summoned Ctuthlu to defeat Caesar, giving the NCR a legendary godlike defender, who will then use its godlike powers to heal the Earth and restore it to the state it was in prior to the war which ended our civilization previously.'Yet for some reason, I'm not imagining that the NCR cares about whether you wore a disguise, laid down some mines, then lured him out or took Caesar head on in melee combat, among the other methods. Even assuming they'd know in the first place.
And if they didn't know, certainly hearing radio reports about an unamed suspect removing Caesar is a consequence, versus a known suspect (Courier, or whatever other reputation you have) removing Caesar, with alleged reports of what happened (some distortions, some true).
That's reactivity. When the game responds to what you do and addresses the consequences of what you do.
Funnily enough, if you decide to kill Caesar via the Auto-Doc, medicine and speech oriented characters can kill him without running afoul of the Legion, unlike if you were to take him head on. So it does react differently depending on how you take him out.
Right. If you use the pre-scripted event. Which is what I said originally: that all differences in the game are pre-scripted, and there's no 'emerging' aside from head-cannon.
While I agree in bare principle that it is better the way you describe, actually being given the opportunity to play through it with vastly different results based on your skillset, your plan and what you actually do is hardlyunimportant.
To roleplay, it's essentially irrelevant.
No. It isn't my sort of game.Out of curiosity, have you played Heavy Rain?
Modifié par In Exile, 07 août 2011 - 03:54 .
#140
Posté 07 août 2011 - 03:52
In Exile
-
- Members
- 28 738 messages
xkg wrote...
Last time i heard people can't hear their own voice.
For example: to find how how does one's voice sound like he need to record it first and then listen to it.
But maybe you have some supernatural abilities, i dont know
Like en said, we can't hear what other people hear we sound like... but we can certainly hear the sounds we make. So I still don't understand what you're talking about.
#141
Posté 07 août 2011 - 03:53
dheer
-
- Members
- 705 messages
It would appear so. Works on both my computers. *shrug*easygame88 wrote...
I'm afraid you still fail
#142
Posté 07 août 2011 - 03:57
Tirfan
-
- Members
- 521 messages
dheer wrote...
It would appear so. Works on both my computers. *shrug*easygame88 wrote...
I'm afraid you still fail
Well, I'm curious what there really is behind the link :< make it work. Now.
#143
Posté 07 août 2011 - 04:02
andraip
-
- Members
- 452 messages
I understand your point.erynnar said...
I pick the nuance of the tone as opposed to say a director directing a voice actor and (quite possibly doing
multiple tones, who knows, but I would think so) and the devs or whomever picking which ones to go with. I pick the nuance of the tone, is my snarky Cousland going to deliver that line mean snarky, happy go lucky snarky, derogatory snarky? I choose. Again, I didn't run into problems that often in DAO, still don't.
Now, which intent did the director pick? And for which lines? Did they call up every writer before the did the lines and ask them, hey, what was your intent on thisline? Did they same time them? Email them? Did they have notes on the intent? Or did the director just direct the actor to do different nuances to tone (or did they not due totime constraints?) Since there are a lot of writers I doubt very much that they did. I could be wrong.
So you pick regardless of what the writers intent was, or the director does. You have no more idea of what the writer's intent was either way.
And I am not intending to be snarky. I am endeavoring to point out you are neither right, nor wrong, nor is voiced a step up, or revolutionary. I am neither right, nor wrong and silent isn't a dinosaur.
For me, it's degrees of seperation from actually stepping into the skin of the avatar and reacting in the world as if I was there.
1) I have a voiced PC whose responses are not what I intended (a few of the snarky comments were more cruel and mean than the red button ones) This pushes me out ofthe game and reminds me that I am not in that world and a part of it.
2) I am forced t watch movies that pop up. Kind of like remembering a tripto the Grand Canyon where I looked over the edge, remembering how the wind felt, how my heart raced vs watching a video my dad took of me doing that. Instead of feeling what I felt, I watched how the camera caught the moment.
Again this separates me from the avatar and pushes me outside the game while I watch a movie reminding me I am not there.
3) I have a set voice, a unique voice, but I can't create a different face to go with it (all my Hawkes looked the same) because to me that is just weird. Human voices are just as unique as their faces. They may be
imitated, but they belong to that person as much as their eye shape and size of their nose. Again, this kept me from stepping into the skin of the avatar and making them my interface. It was an actor I directed and watched. And what if that voice is unpleasant to the player, as others have mentioned? Well, then even more separation.
4) The personality of my Hawke is not subtle. If I picked snarky purple 9 times, diplomatic blue 4 times, and angry red 2 times, then the cut awaycinematics are going to make my Hawke a snarky person. Now that becomes a problem when it is cruel, mean, or douchey to be snarky. And I would have preferred my Hawke to have been blue diplomatic in that scene, but I can't because the computer says I pikced purple 9 times, so my Hawke is going to be a snarky inappropriate douche bag at that moment. My Cousland didn't have that problem, her personality was subtle and filledwith nuance. If I came on a situation where she'd be diplomatic insteadof snarky she was.
Again, was that perfect? Nope not one hundred percent, but what in life is except no one gets out alive? Or that and maybe taxes. And again, the percentage of me running across a moment where the choice and the NPC didn't match up for me? 2% maybe 3%. So, 98 to 97% of the time what I picked fit. WIth DA2? I'll be generous and say 80%, though it didn't feel that high.
What does this all boil down to? Feelings. This is how DA2's voiced protag made me feel. Is it right? Nope. Is it wrong? Nope. It just is.
And I for people who love voiced, please forgive me for not listing some of the degrees of separation for you guys. I was afraid I might miss some, or get them wrong. I know you have them too. And they make you feel separated from the game too. I know they do.
So none of us are right, or wrong. It is just preference. And again, voiced protag people, lucky you, BioWare agrees and you get to feel connected to the game and that your avatar is yours. You'll feel close to them, and more in tune with them, and I will be where you were with DAO. I will have an actor, or a doll that I am directing not actually playing. And so it goes. And so you all don't think I am pushing the snarky purple button...[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/love.png[/smilie] to all!
Oh and ex...you can challenge the I pick my own tone, but you will never win the argument , because it isn't an argument. Since you can't crawl inside my head to know how I do that, it is what it is. It may baffle you, and you may choose not to believe it or believe it's possible, but apparently it is. And not just for me. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]
I prefer voiced over silent because of a simple reason, you want to get in the skin of your character, I don't want it, I want to play (as in role-playing) a character, so I don't care if his voice is different then mine, actually I kinda like it since my male voice sounds a little bit bad on a female character (and I love to play female characters). So while playing DAO I did not used my one voice except for my male Human, I needed to create them a own voice in my mind.
I also don't have a problem of the game remembering me that I'm playing a game, since that's actually what I'm doing, and lying to yourself that Dragon Age is reality isn't good idea imo[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]
Sureit would be very cool if you play Dragon Age while actually seeing, hearing and feeling the world of Thedas as if you would if you would actually be there (except deaths and injuries).
Modifié par andraip, 07 août 2011 - 04:46 .
#144
Posté 07 août 2011 - 04:06
erynnar
-
- Members
- 3 010 messages
andraip wrote...
erynnar said...
I pick the nuance of the tone as opposed to say a director directing
a voice actor and (quite possibly doing multiple tones, who knows, but
I would think so) and the devs or whomever picking which ones to go
with. I pick the nuance of the tone, is my snarky Cousland going to
deliver that line mean snarky, happy go lucky snarky, derogatory snarky?
I choose. Again, I didn't run into problems that often in DAO, still
don't.
Now, which intent did the director pick? And for which
lines? Did they call up every writer before the did the lines and ask
them, hey, what was your intent on this line? Did they same time them?
Email them? Did they have notes on the intent? Or did the director just
direct the actor to do different nuances to tone (or did they not due to
time constraints?) Since there are a lot of writers I doubt very much
that they did. I could be wrong.
So you pick regardless of what
the writers intent was, or the director does. You have no more idea of
what the writer's intent was either way.
And I am not intending
to be snarky. I am endeavoring to point out you are neither right, nor
wrong, nor is voiced a step up, or revolutionary. I am neither right,
nor wrong and silent isn't a dinosaur.
For me, it's degrees of
seperation from actually stepping into the skin of the avatar and
reacting in the world as if I was there.
1) I have a voiced PC
whose responses are not what I intended (a few of the snarky comments
were more cruel and mean than the red button ones) This pushes me out of
the game and reminds me that I am not in that world and a part of it.
2)
I am forced t watch movies that pop up. Kind of like remembering a trip
to the Grand Canyon where I looked over the edge, remembering how the
wind felt, how my heart raced vs watching a video my dad took of me
doing that. Instead of feeling what I felt, I watched how the camera
caught the moment.
Again this separates me from the avatar and pushes me outside the game while I watch a movie reminding me I am not there.
3)
I have a set voice, a unique voice, but I can't create a different face
to go with it (all my Hawkes looked the same) because to me that is
just weird. Human voices are just as unique as their faces. They may be
imitated, but they belong to that person as much as their eye shape and
size of their nose. Again, this kept me from stepping into the skin of
the avatar and making them my interface. It was an actor I directed and
watched. And what if that voice is unpleasant to the player, as others
have mentioned? Well, then even more separation.
4) The
personality of my Hawke is not subtle. If I picked snarky purple 9
times, diplomatic blue 4 times, and angry red 2 times, then the cut away
cinematics are going to make my Hawke a snarky person. Now that becomes
a problem when it is cruel, mean, or douchey to be snarky. And I would
have preferred my Hawke to have been blue diplomatic in that scene, but
I can't because the computer says I pikced purple 9 times, so my Hawke
is going to be a snarky inappropriate douche bag at that moment. My
Cousland didn't have that problem, her personality was subtle and filled
with nuance. If I came on a situation where she'd be diplomatic instead
of snarky she was.
Again, was that perfect? Nope not one hundred
percent, but what in life is except no one gets out alive? Or that and
maybe taxes. And again, the percentage of me running across a moment
where the choice and the NPC didn't match up for me? 2% maybe 3%. So, 98
to 97% of the time what I picked fit. WIth DA2? I'll be generous and
say 80%, though it didn't feel that high.
What does this all boil
down to? Feelings. This is how DA2's voiced protag made me feel. Is it
right? Nope. Is it wrong? Nope. It just is.
And I for people who
love voiced, please forgive me for not listing some of the degrees of
separation for you guys. I was afraid I might miss some, or get them
wrong. I know you have them too. And they make you feel separated from the game too. I know they do.
So
none of us are right, or wrong. It is just preference. And again,
voiced protag people, lucky you, BioWare agrees and you get to feel
connected to the game and that your avatar is yours. You'll feel close
to them, and more in tune with them, and I will be where you were with
DAO. I will have an actor, or a doll that I am directing not actually
playing. And so it goes. And so you all don't think I am pushing the
snarky purple button...[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/love.png[/smilie] to all!
Oh
and ex...you can challenge the I pick my own tone, but you will never
win the argument , because it isn't an argument. Since you can't crawl
inside my head to know how I do that, it is what it is. It may baffle
you, and you may choose not to believe it or believe it's possible, but
apparently it is. And not just for me. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]
I understand your point.
I prefer voiced over silent because of a simple reason, you want to get in the skin of your character, I don't want it, I want to play (as in role-playing) a character, so I don't care if his voice is different then mine, actually I kinda like it since my male voice sounds a little bit bad on a female character (and I love to play female characters). So while playing DAO I did not used my one voice except for my male Human, I needed to create them a own voice in my mind.
I also don't have a problem of the game remembering me that I'm playing a game, since that's actually what I'm doing, and lying to yourself that Dragon Age is reality isn't good idea imo;)
Sure it would be very cool if you play Dragon Age while actually seeing, hearing and feeling the world of Thedas as if you would if you would actually be there (except deaths and injuries)
And I understand your point. You feel you are playing the role with a voiced protag, and for me it's the opposite. I'm directing a character to act a certain way in a movie, so I don't feel I'm playing the role. So it's preference. It's how they make us feel. That you and I are in different camps makes no difference, because in the end we feel the same thing, just one is voiced and the other is silent. The feelings you and I have are the same.
Hehe, yeah I like feeling more connected to the game, but I don't ever want to feel the injuries. ROFL!
#145
Posté 07 août 2011 - 04:07
In Exile
-
- Members
- 28 738 messages
[quote]erynnar wrote...
I pick the nuance of the tone as opposed to say a director directing a voice actor and (quite possibly doing multiple tones, who knows, but I would think so) and the devs or whomever picking which ones to go with. I pick the nuance of the tone, is my snarky Cousland going to deliver that line mean snarky, happy go lucky snarky, derogatory snarky? I choose. Again, I didn't run into problems that often in DAO, still don't.[/quote]
The problem, of course, is that the NPC ''hears'' the tone you've said. And then can react to a different kind of snarky - e.g. Alistair might like happy go lucky, but hate mean or derogatory. So if you try that and he takes offence, then what?
The game tells you what you meant all along.
[quote]Now, which intent did the director pick? And for which lines? Did they call up every writer before the did the lines and ask them, hey, what was your intent on this line? Did they same time them? Email them? Did they have notes on the intent? Or did the director just direct the actor to do different nuances to tone (or did they not due to time constraints?) Since there are a lot of writers I doubt very much that they did. I could be wrong. [/quote]
Acting-wise, it actually depends. Sometimes the actors ad lib the lines, and casting is the really important aspect of picking a ''voice'' for the protagonist.
But even with that, when the next actor has to react to what ''our'' actor said, he does not call the writer and ignore any and everything ''our'' actor did. If there is some change from the script, the other actor goes with it, dynamically reacting.
This is missing with SP. Not that SP can't do this. But it means no more:
This is over!
But rather:
[Calmly, while reaching for your weapon and motioning to your companions] This is over! [attack target & initiate combat]
[quote]So you pick regardless of what the writers intent was, or the director does. You have no more idea of what the writer's intent was either way.[/quote]
In DA:O, you're forced to. And then you have to deal with whether or not the reaction makes even a lick of sense.
[quote]And I am not intending to be snarky. I am endeavoring to point out you are neither right, nor wrong, nor is voiced a step up, or revolutionary. I am neither right, nor wrong and silent isn't a dinosaur.
For me, it's degrees of seperation from actually stepping into the skin of the avatar and reacting in the world as if I was there. [/quote]
It's not SP that's the problem. It's what people think SP means (e.g. you can be the character, you get to pick the tone, it's your chance to play a creative role in the story). None of these are true. We could get the same thing with SP we could get with VO, so long as you design the game right. But what that would then mean is that everything but timbre and pitch is different between SP and VO, and I'd wager that's not what fans of SP really want.
[quote]1) I have a voiced PC whose responses are not what I intended (a few of the snarky comments were more cruel and mean than the red button ones) This pushes me out of the game and reminds me that I am not in that world and a part of it.[/quote]
And an SP gives you the same problem, but with other NPCs. Suddenly, Alistair is acting as if you were cruel, and Morrigain is acting as if you were sexual, and there's absolutely no chance to try and correct that, and you can't even know if it was a misunderstanding on their part (because of how the line was said and acted) or your part (because of how the writers scripted it), though you can see that since there was no option to correct yourself, clearly the writer's intent was that you deliver the line that way.
So with SP (as is) we run into the problem of mentally unstable NPCs.
[quote]2) I am forced t watch movies that pop up. Kind of like remembering a trip to the Grand Canyon where I looked over the edge, remembering how the wind felt, how my heart raced vs watching a video my dad took of me doing that. Instead of feeling what I felt, I watched how the camera caught the moment.[/quote]
SP is like me reading your description about the grand canyon. Because you were never there, with Alistair, when he told you he was the bastard son of Cailan, and you never responded to what he said.
[quote]3) I have a set voice, a unique voice, but I can't create a different face to go with it (all my Hawkes looked the same) because to me that is just weird. Human voices are just as unique as their faces. They may be imitated, but they belong to that person as much as their eye shape and size of their nose. Again, this kept me from stepping into the skin of the avatar and making them my interface. It was an actor I directed and watched. And what if that voice is unpleasant to the player, as others have mentioned? Well, then even more separation. [/quote]
The voice is what the writers force on you - the very things that are said. I found the direct and bland dialogue in DA:O the antithesis of any character I would want to make, and wouldn't fit any face I created. Why does hearing the timbre change this?
More importantly, even this was an issue, why does the apperance matter? It's the beliefs and actions that make the character, not the fixed voice (which was always fixed in every RPG).
[quote]4) The personality of my Hawke is not subtle. If I picked snarky purple 9 times, diplomatic blue 4 times, and angry red 2 times, then the cut away cinematics are going to make my Hawke a snarky person. Now that becomes a problem when it is cruel, mean, or douchey to be snarky. And I would have preferred my Hawke to have been blue diplomatic in that scene, but I can't because the computer says I pikced purple 9 times, so my Hawke is going to be a snarky inappropriate douche bag at that moment. [/quote]
I've never understood why Bioware did that, and trust me, I wasn't any more a fan of it that you were. I don't support the game taking control away from my character during dialogue. It's just like when in DA:O you're forced to let other characters speak for you.
This has nothing to do with voice and everything to do with a wtf decision by Bioware.
[quote]My Cousland didn't have that problem, her personality was subtle and filled with nuance. If I came on a situation where she'd be diplomatic instead of snarky she was.[/quote]
My Cousland was always forced to pick betwee 3 options (nice, neutral and mean) and others got to ask questions (and very rarely tell a joke).
[quoteWhat does this all boil down to? Feelings. This is how DA2's voiced protag made me feel. Is it right? Nope. Is it wrong? Nope. It just is. [/quote]
You're still looking at it as if it was the voice itself I care about, and not the game design that comes with it.
[quote]And I for people who love voiced, please forgive me for not listing some of the degrees of separation for you guys. I was afraid I might miss some, or get them wrong. I know you have them too. And they make you feel separated from the game too. I know they do. [/quote]
If it was about timbre or pitch, that would be one thing. But it's not. It's about what makes a good RPG, and we can certainly debate that... but it's not about VO and SP by itself. Any more than when people talk about how they dislike VO because it costs a lot and means less content/origins.
[quote]Oh and ex...you can challenge the I pick my own tone, but you will never win the argument , because it isn't an argument. Since you can't crawl inside my head to know how I do that, it is what it is. It may baffle you, and you may choose not to believe it or believe it's possible, but apparently it is. And not just for me.[/quote]
I don't need to step inside your head. I can prove it's impossible lots of other ways.
I pick the nuance of the tone as opposed to say a director directing a voice actor and (quite possibly doing multiple tones, who knows, but I would think so) and the devs or whomever picking which ones to go with. I pick the nuance of the tone, is my snarky Cousland going to deliver that line mean snarky, happy go lucky snarky, derogatory snarky? I choose. Again, I didn't run into problems that often in DAO, still don't.[/quote]
The problem, of course, is that the NPC ''hears'' the tone you've said. And then can react to a different kind of snarky - e.g. Alistair might like happy go lucky, but hate mean or derogatory. So if you try that and he takes offence, then what?
The game tells you what you meant all along.
[quote]Now, which intent did the director pick? And for which lines? Did they call up every writer before the did the lines and ask them, hey, what was your intent on this line? Did they same time them? Email them? Did they have notes on the intent? Or did the director just direct the actor to do different nuances to tone (or did they not due to time constraints?) Since there are a lot of writers I doubt very much that they did. I could be wrong. [/quote]
Acting-wise, it actually depends. Sometimes the actors ad lib the lines, and casting is the really important aspect of picking a ''voice'' for the protagonist.
But even with that, when the next actor has to react to what ''our'' actor said, he does not call the writer and ignore any and everything ''our'' actor did. If there is some change from the script, the other actor goes with it, dynamically reacting.
This is missing with SP. Not that SP can't do this. But it means no more:
This is over!
But rather:
[Calmly, while reaching for your weapon and motioning to your companions] This is over! [attack target & initiate combat]
[quote]So you pick regardless of what the writers intent was, or the director does. You have no more idea of what the writer's intent was either way.[/quote]
In DA:O, you're forced to. And then you have to deal with whether or not the reaction makes even a lick of sense.
[quote]And I am not intending to be snarky. I am endeavoring to point out you are neither right, nor wrong, nor is voiced a step up, or revolutionary. I am neither right, nor wrong and silent isn't a dinosaur.
For me, it's degrees of seperation from actually stepping into the skin of the avatar and reacting in the world as if I was there. [/quote]
It's not SP that's the problem. It's what people think SP means (e.g. you can be the character, you get to pick the tone, it's your chance to play a creative role in the story). None of these are true. We could get the same thing with SP we could get with VO, so long as you design the game right. But what that would then mean is that everything but timbre and pitch is different between SP and VO, and I'd wager that's not what fans of SP really want.
[quote]1) I have a voiced PC whose responses are not what I intended (a few of the snarky comments were more cruel and mean than the red button ones) This pushes me out of the game and reminds me that I am not in that world and a part of it.[/quote]
And an SP gives you the same problem, but with other NPCs. Suddenly, Alistair is acting as if you were cruel, and Morrigain is acting as if you were sexual, and there's absolutely no chance to try and correct that, and you can't even know if it was a misunderstanding on their part (because of how the line was said and acted) or your part (because of how the writers scripted it), though you can see that since there was no option to correct yourself, clearly the writer's intent was that you deliver the line that way.
So with SP (as is) we run into the problem of mentally unstable NPCs.
[quote]2) I am forced t watch movies that pop up. Kind of like remembering a trip to the Grand Canyon where I looked over the edge, remembering how the wind felt, how my heart raced vs watching a video my dad took of me doing that. Instead of feeling what I felt, I watched how the camera caught the moment.[/quote]
SP is like me reading your description about the grand canyon. Because you were never there, with Alistair, when he told you he was the bastard son of Cailan, and you never responded to what he said.
[quote]3) I have a set voice, a unique voice, but I can't create a different face to go with it (all my Hawkes looked the same) because to me that is just weird. Human voices are just as unique as their faces. They may be imitated, but they belong to that person as much as their eye shape and size of their nose. Again, this kept me from stepping into the skin of the avatar and making them my interface. It was an actor I directed and watched. And what if that voice is unpleasant to the player, as others have mentioned? Well, then even more separation. [/quote]
The voice is what the writers force on you - the very things that are said. I found the direct and bland dialogue in DA:O the antithesis of any character I would want to make, and wouldn't fit any face I created. Why does hearing the timbre change this?
More importantly, even this was an issue, why does the apperance matter? It's the beliefs and actions that make the character, not the fixed voice (which was always fixed in every RPG).
[quote]4) The personality of my Hawke is not subtle. If I picked snarky purple 9 times, diplomatic blue 4 times, and angry red 2 times, then the cut away cinematics are going to make my Hawke a snarky person. Now that becomes a problem when it is cruel, mean, or douchey to be snarky. And I would have preferred my Hawke to have been blue diplomatic in that scene, but I can't because the computer says I pikced purple 9 times, so my Hawke is going to be a snarky inappropriate douche bag at that moment. [/quote]
I've never understood why Bioware did that, and trust me, I wasn't any more a fan of it that you were. I don't support the game taking control away from my character during dialogue. It's just like when in DA:O you're forced to let other characters speak for you.
This has nothing to do with voice and everything to do with a wtf decision by Bioware.
[quote]My Cousland didn't have that problem, her personality was subtle and filled with nuance. If I came on a situation where she'd be diplomatic instead of snarky she was.[/quote]
My Cousland was always forced to pick betwee 3 options (nice, neutral and mean) and others got to ask questions (and very rarely tell a joke).
[quoteWhat does this all boil down to? Feelings. This is how DA2's voiced protag made me feel. Is it right? Nope. Is it wrong? Nope. It just is. [/quote]
You're still looking at it as if it was the voice itself I care about, and not the game design that comes with it.
[quote]And I for people who love voiced, please forgive me for not listing some of the degrees of separation for you guys. I was afraid I might miss some, or get them wrong. I know you have them too. And they make you feel separated from the game too. I know they do. [/quote]
If it was about timbre or pitch, that would be one thing. But it's not. It's about what makes a good RPG, and we can certainly debate that... but it's not about VO and SP by itself. Any more than when people talk about how they dislike VO because it costs a lot and means less content/origins.
[quote]Oh and ex...you can challenge the I pick my own tone, but you will never win the argument , because it isn't an argument. Since you can't crawl inside my head to know how I do that, it is what it is. It may baffle you, and you may choose not to believe it or believe it's possible, but apparently it is. And not just for me.
[/quote]I don't need to step inside your head. I can prove it's impossible lots of other ways.
Modifié par In Exile, 07 août 2011 - 04:09 .
#146
Posté 07 août 2011 - 04:07
erynnar
-
- Members
- 3 010 messages
dheer wrote...
It would appear so. Works on both my computers. *shrug*easygame88 wrote...
I'm afraid you still fail
*HUGS*
#147
Posté 07 août 2011 - 04:11
erynnar
-
- Members
- 3 010 messages
[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]erynnar wrote...
I pick the nuance of the tone as opposed to say a director directing a voice actor and (quite possibly doing multiple tones, who knows, but I would think so) and the devs or whomever picking which ones to go with. I pick the nuance of the tone, is my snarky Cousland going to deliver that line mean snarky, happy go lucky snarky, derogatory snarky? I choose. Again, I didn't run into problems that often in DAO, still don't.[/quote]
The problem, of course, is that the NPC ''hears'' the tone you've said. And then can react to a different kind of snarky - e.g. Alistair might like happy go lucky, but hate mean or derogatory. So if you try that and he takes offence, then what?
The game tells you what you meant all along.
[quote]Now, which intent did the director pick? And for which lines? Did they call up every writer before the did the lines and ask them, hey, what was your intent on this line? Did they same time them? Email them? Did they have notes on the intent? Or did the director just direct the actor to do different nuances to tone (or did they not due to time constraints?) Since there are a lot of writers I doubt very much that they did. I could be wrong. [/quote]
Acting-wise, it actually depends. Sometimes the actors ad lib the lines, and casting is the really important aspect of picking a ''voice'' for the protagonist.
But even with that, when the next actor has to react to what ''our'' actor said, he does not call the writer and ignore any and everything ''our'' actor did. If there is some change from the script, the other actor goes with it, dynamically reacting.
This is missing with SP.
[quote]So you pick regardless of what the writers intent was, or the director does. You have no more idea of what the writer's intent was either way.[/quote]
In DA:O, you're forced to. And then you have to deal with whether or not the reaction makes even a lick of
[quote]And I am not intending to be snarky. I am endeavoring to point out you are neither right, nor wrong, nor is voiced a step up, or revolutionary. I am neither right, nor wrong and silent isn't a dinosaur.
For me, it's degrees of seperation from actually stepping into the skin of the avatar and reacting in the world as if I was there. [/quote]
It's not SP that's the problem. It's what people think SP means (e.g. you can be the character, you get to pick the tone, it's your chance to play a creative role in the story). None of these are true. We could get the same thing with SP we could get with VO, so long as you design the game right. But what that would then mean is that everything but timbre and pitch is different between SP and VO, and I'd wager that's not what fans of SP really want.
[quote]1) I have a voiced PC whose responses are not what I intended (a few of the snarky comments were more cruel and mean than the red button ones) This pushes me out of the game and reminds me that I am not in that world and a part of it.[/quote]
And an SP gives you the same problem, but with other NPCs. Suddenly, Alistair is acting as if you were cruel, and Morrigain is acting as if you were sexual, and there's absolutely no chance to try and correct that, and you can't even know if it was a misunderstanding on their part (because of how the line was said and acted) or your part (because of how the writers scripted it), though you can see that since there was no option to correct yourself, clearly the writer's intent was that you deliver the line that way.
So with SP (as is) we run into the problem of mentally unstable NPCs.
[quote]2) I am forced t watch movies that pop up. Kind of like remembering a trip to the Grand Canyon where I looked over the edge, remembering how the wind felt, how my heart raced vs watching a video my dad took of me doing that. Instead of feeling what I felt, I watched how the camera caught the moment.[/quote]
SP is like me reading your description about the grand canyon. Because you were never there, with Alistair, when he told you he was the bastard son of Cailan, and you never responded to what he said.
[quote]3) I have a set voice, a unique voice, but I can't create a different face to go with it (all my Hawkes looked the same) because to me that is just weird. Human voices are just as unique as their faces. They may be imitated, but they belong to that person as much as their eye shape and size of their nose. Again, this kept me from stepping into the skin of the avatar and making them my interface. It was an actor I directed and watched. And what if that voice is unpleasant to the player, as others have mentioned? Well, then even more separation. [/quote]
The voice is what the writers force on you - the very things that are said. I found the direct and bland dialogue in DA:O the antithesis of any character I would want to make, and wouldn't fit any face I created. Why does hearing the timbre change this?
More importantly, even this was an issue, why does the apperance matter? It's the beliefs and actions that make the character, not the fixed voice (which was always fixed in every RPG).
[quote]4) The personality of my Hawke is not subtle. If I picked snarky purple 9 times, diplomatic blue 4 times, and angry red 2 times, then the cut away cinematics are going to make my Hawke a snarky person. Now that becomes a problem when it is cruel, mean, or douchey to be snarky. And I would have preferred my Hawke to have been blue diplomatic in that scene, but I can't because the computer says I pikced purple 9 times, so my Hawke is going to be a snarky inappropriate douche bag at that moment. [/quote]
I've never understood why Bioware did that, and trust me, I wasn't any more a fan of it that you were. I don't support the game taking control away from my character during dialogue. It's just like when in DA:O you're forced to let other characters speak for you.
This has nothing to do with voice and everything to do with a wtf decision by Bioware.
[quote]My Cousland didn't have that problem, her personality was subtle and filled with nuance. If I came on a situation where she'd be diplomatic instead of snarky she was.[/quote]
My Cousland was always forced to pick betwee 3 options (nice, neutral and mean) and others got to ask questions (and very rarely tell a joke).
[quoteWhat does this all boil down to? Feelings. This is how DA2's voiced protag made me feel. Is it right? Nope. Is it wrong? Nope. It just is. [/quote]
You're still looking at it as if it was the voice itself I care about, and not the game design that comes with it.
[quote]And I for people who love voiced, please forgive me for not listing some of the degrees of separation for you guys. I was afraid I might miss some, or get them wrong. I know you have them too. And they make you feel separated from the game too. I know they do. [/quote]
If it was about timbre or pitch, that would be one thing. But it's not. It's about what makes a good RPG, and we can certainly debate that... but it's not about VO and SP by itself. Any more than when people talk about how they dislike VO because it costs a lot and means less content/origins.
[quote]Oh and ex...you can challenge the I pick my own tone, but you will never win the argument , because it isn't an argument. Since you can't crawl inside my head to know how I do that, it is what it is. It may baffle you, and you may choose not to believe it or believe it's possible, but apparently it is. And not just for me.[/quote]
I don't need to step inside your head. I can prove it's impossible lots of other ways.
[/quote]
And as you keep saying there is no difference, so it all comes down to feeling and preference. You and I are arguing in circles. And no, you can't prove anything in a variety of other ways. You want to be right, apparently. So have at it. Here is your "exile is right and all of us who say we feel and do what we do are wrong " crown. *hands paper crown over* Because it seems to me, all you want to do is tell me my feelings of enjoyment for the silent are wrong and so we should have nothing but voiced forever and ever.
You won anyway. It isn't like BioWare is going to keep at least one silent protag for us. Now every game can be ME. HUZZAH! Now that was me pushing the snarky purple button.
[quote]erynnar wrote...
I pick the nuance of the tone as opposed to say a director directing a voice actor and (quite possibly doing multiple tones, who knows, but I would think so) and the devs or whomever picking which ones to go with. I pick the nuance of the tone, is my snarky Cousland going to deliver that line mean snarky, happy go lucky snarky, derogatory snarky? I choose. Again, I didn't run into problems that often in DAO, still don't.[/quote]
The problem, of course, is that the NPC ''hears'' the tone you've said. And then can react to a different kind of snarky - e.g. Alistair might like happy go lucky, but hate mean or derogatory. So if you try that and he takes offence, then what?
The game tells you what you meant all along.
[quote]Now, which intent did the director pick? And for which lines? Did they call up every writer before the did the lines and ask them, hey, what was your intent on this line? Did they same time them? Email them? Did they have notes on the intent? Or did the director just direct the actor to do different nuances to tone (or did they not due to time constraints?) Since there are a lot of writers I doubt very much that they did. I could be wrong. [/quote]
Acting-wise, it actually depends. Sometimes the actors ad lib the lines, and casting is the really important aspect of picking a ''voice'' for the protagonist.
But even with that, when the next actor has to react to what ''our'' actor said, he does not call the writer and ignore any and everything ''our'' actor did. If there is some change from the script, the other actor goes with it, dynamically reacting.
This is missing with SP.
[quote]So you pick regardless of what the writers intent was, or the director does. You have no more idea of what the writer's intent was either way.[/quote]
In DA:O, you're forced to. And then you have to deal with whether or not the reaction makes even a lick of
[quote]And I am not intending to be snarky. I am endeavoring to point out you are neither right, nor wrong, nor is voiced a step up, or revolutionary. I am neither right, nor wrong and silent isn't a dinosaur.
For me, it's degrees of seperation from actually stepping into the skin of the avatar and reacting in the world as if I was there. [/quote]
It's not SP that's the problem. It's what people think SP means (e.g. you can be the character, you get to pick the tone, it's your chance to play a creative role in the story). None of these are true. We could get the same thing with SP we could get with VO, so long as you design the game right. But what that would then mean is that everything but timbre and pitch is different between SP and VO, and I'd wager that's not what fans of SP really want.
[quote]1) I have a voiced PC whose responses are not what I intended (a few of the snarky comments were more cruel and mean than the red button ones) This pushes me out of the game and reminds me that I am not in that world and a part of it.[/quote]
And an SP gives you the same problem, but with other NPCs. Suddenly, Alistair is acting as if you were cruel, and Morrigain is acting as if you were sexual, and there's absolutely no chance to try and correct that, and you can't even know if it was a misunderstanding on their part (because of how the line was said and acted) or your part (because of how the writers scripted it), though you can see that since there was no option to correct yourself, clearly the writer's intent was that you deliver the line that way.
So with SP (as is) we run into the problem of mentally unstable NPCs.
[quote]2) I am forced t watch movies that pop up. Kind of like remembering a trip to the Grand Canyon where I looked over the edge, remembering how the wind felt, how my heart raced vs watching a video my dad took of me doing that. Instead of feeling what I felt, I watched how the camera caught the moment.[/quote]
SP is like me reading your description about the grand canyon. Because you were never there, with Alistair, when he told you he was the bastard son of Cailan, and you never responded to what he said.
[quote]3) I have a set voice, a unique voice, but I can't create a different face to go with it (all my Hawkes looked the same) because to me that is just weird. Human voices are just as unique as their faces. They may be imitated, but they belong to that person as much as their eye shape and size of their nose. Again, this kept me from stepping into the skin of the avatar and making them my interface. It was an actor I directed and watched. And what if that voice is unpleasant to the player, as others have mentioned? Well, then even more separation. [/quote]
The voice is what the writers force on you - the very things that are said. I found the direct and bland dialogue in DA:O the antithesis of any character I would want to make, and wouldn't fit any face I created. Why does hearing the timbre change this?
More importantly, even this was an issue, why does the apperance matter? It's the beliefs and actions that make the character, not the fixed voice (which was always fixed in every RPG).
[quote]4) The personality of my Hawke is not subtle. If I picked snarky purple 9 times, diplomatic blue 4 times, and angry red 2 times, then the cut away cinematics are going to make my Hawke a snarky person. Now that becomes a problem when it is cruel, mean, or douchey to be snarky. And I would have preferred my Hawke to have been blue diplomatic in that scene, but I can't because the computer says I pikced purple 9 times, so my Hawke is going to be a snarky inappropriate douche bag at that moment. [/quote]
I've never understood why Bioware did that, and trust me, I wasn't any more a fan of it that you were. I don't support the game taking control away from my character during dialogue. It's just like when in DA:O you're forced to let other characters speak for you.
This has nothing to do with voice and everything to do with a wtf decision by Bioware.
[quote]My Cousland didn't have that problem, her personality was subtle and filled with nuance. If I came on a situation where she'd be diplomatic instead of snarky she was.[/quote]
My Cousland was always forced to pick betwee 3 options (nice, neutral and mean) and others got to ask questions (and very rarely tell a joke).
[quoteWhat does this all boil down to? Feelings. This is how DA2's voiced protag made me feel. Is it right? Nope. Is it wrong? Nope. It just is. [/quote]
You're still looking at it as if it was the voice itself I care about, and not the game design that comes with it.
[quote]And I for people who love voiced, please forgive me for not listing some of the degrees of separation for you guys. I was afraid I might miss some, or get them wrong. I know you have them too. And they make you feel separated from the game too. I know they do. [/quote]
If it was about timbre or pitch, that would be one thing. But it's not. It's about what makes a good RPG, and we can certainly debate that... but it's not about VO and SP by itself. Any more than when people talk about how they dislike VO because it costs a lot and means less content/origins.
[quote]Oh and ex...you can challenge the I pick my own tone, but you will never win the argument , because it isn't an argument. Since you can't crawl inside my head to know how I do that, it is what it is. It may baffle you, and you may choose not to believe it or believe it's possible, but apparently it is. And not just for me.
[/quote]I don't need to step inside your head. I can prove it's impossible lots of other ways.
[/quote]
And as you keep saying there is no difference, so it all comes down to feeling and preference. You and I are arguing in circles. And no, you can't prove anything in a variety of other ways. You want to be right, apparently. So have at it. Here is your "exile is right and all of us who say we feel and do what we do are wrong " crown. *hands paper crown over* Because it seems to me, all you want to do is tell me my feelings of enjoyment for the silent are wrong and so we should have nothing but voiced forever and ever.
You won anyway. It isn't like BioWare is going to keep at least one silent protag for us. Now every game can be ME. HUZZAH! Now that was me pushing the snarky purple button.
#148
Posté 07 août 2011 - 04:14
AngryFrozenWater
-
- Members
- 9 037 messages
This is a rare occaission in which I disagree with you. You specifically mention you stepping into the skin and be you. I am not able to accomplish that in both DA:O and DA2. That has to do with the third person perspective. I am looking at someone who is clearly not me. I cannot make him look like me. So, I rather play like someone else. And because of that I am happy with the voice. No voice would feel odd. The PC can even have the opposite sex or another race. Things would be different when playing in first person perspective. That makes me feel like I am looking through the eyes of the PC. In that case I prefer the PC to be my gender and skin color and be silient. In that case a voice would distract from the illusion.erynnar wrote...
BlueMagitek wrote...
It depends on the game. In the Fallout series or Elder Scrolls, silent protagonist is the way to go. The writers generally do a great job with lines for your character and even include changes based on how you built your character (more Fallout than ES, admittedly; low int runs ftw). It also worked out great in VtM:Bloodlines, based on how you built your character and what species you were (Malk runs ftw).
But voiced protagonists work too; I can quite happily pop Tales of Symphonia or Vesperia in, play them and enjoy them just fine. You don't get as many choices with what the character is and you usually don't get to radically alter the game with choices, but they still make for an enjoyable experience.
When it comes down to it, I'd say that when I play a silent protagonist, it is much easier for me to slip into his shoes, be he Bhaalspawn, Nerevarine, Chosen One, Fledgling Vamp, etc. The dialog usually has more branches that let you roleplay out your character.
Voiced protagonist isn't bad, but I know that the character I'm controlling isn't mine; Cecil isn't mine, Lloyd isn't mine, J.C. Denton isn't mine (though he does have a lot of options and he gets props for that), etc. Shepard isn't really mine either, but that may be due more to the dialog wheel than anything, where he'll do something unexpected.
Well said Blue, I do like Geralt and he is a voiced fixed protag. ME series has theirs. Voiced can work and does. I like playing TW2. But Geralt isn't mine. And since my face customization on Hawke is limited, for me, due to voice, she becomes like Geralt. Not mine, not a skin I can actually step into. Now, did I enjoy Legacy? Yep, and Hawke was still voiced and not mine. I just don't enjoy it as much as stepping into the skin of the silent one and being them.
Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 07 août 2011 - 04:16 .
#149
Posté 07 août 2011 - 04:17
Sutekh
-
- Members
- 1 089 messages
Thank you! Thank you thank you thank you thank you!erynnar wrote...
And I understand your point. You feel you are playing the role with a voiced protag, and for me it's the opposite. I'm directing a character to act a certain way in a movie, so I don't feel I'm playing the role. So it's preference. It's how they make us feel. That you and I are in different camps makes no difference, because in the end we feel the same thing, just one is voiced and the other is silent. The feelings you and I have are the same.
You and I are on the opposite sides of the fence, but you just nailed it there, ery.
#150
Posté 07 août 2011 - 04:23
Kreid
-
- Members
- 1 159 messages
IMO the voiced protagonist is the future, silent protagonist was good in it's own time but we're advancing towards a much more dynamic and cinematic era, I admit that voiced PC isn't without it's faults but I hope that in in the future when (hopefully) production costs aren't so high we'll be able to see the full potential of a VP having different voices and much more tones.
Modifié par Creid-X, 07 août 2011 - 04:27 .
