987 réponses à ce sujet

[DreGregoire]

"Stepping into the character and being me" is a deceptive term, I prefer to say stepping into character and playing the character I have created (personality wise) in my head and then in character creator. Each time I play I have a different type of person in mind. Somebody who has a different way of looking at the world. In a voiced protagonist having only one voice set limits to this creation in that the voice can and often does not match what I expected my character to soundlike. It limits my own creativity. Hawke will always sound like his/her voice protagonist. I'm not found of either of the voice's, but I got used to male Hawke, whereas, female Hawke tends to grate on my nerves. I prefer for games like Dragon Age to have non-voiced with a choice of soundsets. Alas Bioware has chosen to go with voiced.

[DreGregoire]

Creid-X wrote...

I hope that in in the future when (hopefully) production costs aren't so high we'll be able to see the full potential of a VP having different voices and much more tones.

That would be much more to many people's liking; however, the cost of voice actors is going to remain constant if not rising as time passes.

[J.C. Blade]

In Exile wrote...

J.C. Blade wrote...
You're putting dialogue up again and I wasn't taking about that at all. I'm saying how the game will show three, well four, crucial events in Hawke's life and tell the player to Lego the rest but only so long it doesn't contradict those key moments. I know it sounds similar to what you essentially do with the silent protagonist but it isn't. Creating background for a silent protagonist is not the same as filling those monstrous gaps within the game itself. At least not for me.

But fans of silent VO argue precisely for this. That in conversation, you fill in the blanks (because there are blanks). 

And DA:O was the same way as DA2, just apparently over a shorter scale. Wynne talks about "months" that went by during your quest. But do you see these months? Do you even see more than a few days pass? 

I appreciate that you really, really disliked DA2's way of handling this. But it seems to me that the writers left these games without described precisely to allow people to "fill-in-the-blanks" which they've argued is something really important to RP for them.

We are talking about years and years of Hawke's inactivity in Kirkwall without any sort of bone thrown at us about what this city was about, not a few days on the road or the evening before the Archdemon (because my Warden could have been playing cards right before smiting the dragon).

Writers usually have to throw you some sort of clay before they toss you out in the art-studio where you have to create imaginary bridges in the story. DA2 doesn't do that, it's that simple. How am I supposed to further attempt my development at Hawke's character if I do not know what she had been doing for the first 3 years? Do I pause the game, grab a piece of paper and outline all the little possibilities in her life that would make her turn from a good natured (diplomatic woman) to a distrusting person (red jerk)? But this is not a topic for this thread because I am arguing something entirely different here.

In Exile wrote...

J.C. Blade wrote...
In DAO I have only to imagine and create the background and personality of a single character and how that will affect choices within that one year time span of the game - will she or won't she save the kid in Redcliff for example.

I appreciate that, like I said. But people will argue that in DA:O you had to do much more (e.g. imagine side conversations with NPCs in your party, and that's the fun of an RPG).

In DA2 I have to create Hawke’s life in Lothering and her sentiments towards her family - fair enough, it is the beginning of your character; then Hawke’s first year in Kirkwall, how it went and what made her reach the top, the missions, the people she met; then those three years after deep roads, then the next 3… 

If I were actually writing a fanfiction story about Hawke all this blankness would be excellent.

No, you don't. No more than you have to describe what it was that happened to the Warden while travelling from Denerim to Orzammar or Haven. Did Alistair have fun? How did they eat? What did Sandal do? Was Morrigain complaining about how useless the trip was? What about Sten?

Again, a week on the road in a Blight covered land, where the Wardens have a bounty on their heads is much more easier for me to construct around what my team did on point C in between points A and B with Mr Alistair and Madam Wynne. They ate what they could get and fought for their life most likely. A lot. DAO gives me a well designed playground in which my imagination can work. DA2 doesn't.

Again this whole conversation went into a wrong direction. In the beginning the good person Eudaemonium mentioned that a silent protagonist is like having to write fan-fiction. I merely said that to me it seemed that Hawke required even more fan-fiction writing because while voice did give her a more defined personality, it left everything else it deemed unimportant for further character development irrelevant and up to the player. I'm saying that the game left TOO much to player to reconstruct. Not just about the player character, Hawke, but also about the world itself.

Modifié par J.C. Blade, 07 août 2011 - 04:55 .

[Xewaka]

In Exile wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
Both share the label "role-playing game". That means that both still stand to learn from each other. And considering the situation, I'd say cRPGs have more to learn from PnP than the opposite.

Football and basketball both share the word ''ball'' but that doesn't mean 1) they're very much alike except superficially; 2) they have anything to learn from each other; 3) they should learn anything from each other. 
They both share the words 'role' and 'playing' but the modifier 'computer' and 'pen and paper' differentiate them in the same way that 'foot' and 'basket' differentiate ball.

Basketball wasn't originally intended to emulate football for a reduced size team. Nor is still a young, developing, genre. There are many customs in cRPG lifted from PnP RPG that ought to be revised in the manner they were for PnP (such as levelling mechanics).

[erynnar]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

erynnar wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

It depends on the game. In the Fallout series or Elder Scrolls, silent protagonist is the way to go. The writers generally do a great job with lines for your character and even include changes based on how you built your character (more Fallout than ES, admittedly; low int runs ftw). It also worked out great in VtM:Bloodlines, based on how you built your character and what species you were (Malk runs ftw).

But voiced protagonists work too; I can quite happily pop Tales of Symphonia or Vesperia in, play them and enjoy them just fine. You don't get as many choices with what the character is and you usually don't get to radically alter the game with choices, but they still make for an enjoyable experience.

When it comes down to it, I'd say that when I play a silent protagonist, it is much easier for me to slip into his shoes, be he Bhaalspawn, Nerevarine, Chosen One, Fledgling Vamp, etc. The dialog usually has more branches that let you roleplay out your character.

Voiced protagonist isn't bad, but I know that the character I'm controlling isn't mine; Cecil isn't mine, Lloyd isn't mine, J.C. Denton isn't mine (though he does have a lot of options and he gets props for that), etc. Shepard isn't really mine either, but that may be due more to the dialog wheel than anything, where he'll do something unexpected.

Well said Blue, I do like Geralt and he is a voiced fixed protag. ME series has theirs. Voiced can work and does. I like playing TW2. But Geralt isn't mine. And since my face customization on Hawke is limited, for me, due to voice, she becomes like Geralt. Not mine, not a skin I can actually step into. Now, did I enjoy Legacy? Yep, and Hawke was still voiced and not mine. I just don't enjoy it as much as stepping into the skin of the silent one and being them.

This is a rare occaission in which I disagree with you. You specifically mention you stepping into the skin and be you. I am not able to accomplish that in both DA:O and DA2. That has to do with the third person perspective. I am looking at someone who is clearly not me. I cannot make him look like me. So, I rather play like someone else. And because of that I am happy with the voice. No voice would feel odd. The PC can even have the opposite sex or another race. Things would be different when playing in first person perspective. That makes me feel like I am looking through the eyes of the PC. In that case I prefer the PC to be my gender and skin color and be silient. In that case a voice would distract from the illusion.

And I apologize. I was not clear, I am stepping into the role and not playing me, but me playing the personality that I made up for my character. All my Wardens are completely different people. My apologies!

[erynnar]

Sutekh wrote...

erynnar wrote...

And I understand your point. You feel you are playing the role with a voiced protag, and for me it's the opposite. I'm directing a character to act a certain way in a movie, so I don't feel I'm playing the role. So it's preference. It's how they make us feel. That you and I are in different camps makes no difference, because in the end we feel the same thing, just one is voiced and the other is silent. The feelings you and I have are the same.

Thank you! Thank you thank you thank you thank you!

You and I are on the opposite sides of the fence, but you just nailed it there, ery.

Well you're weldome! I could argue that people who role play with a voiced are wrong and that  I don't believe them like Ex does,but you aren't. What goes on in your head and how you approach the character is yours. It isn't wrong, it is what it is the same feelings for a different approach.

Modifié par erynnar, 07 août 2011 - 10:08 .

[arafinwe_ingalaure]

I prefer voiced protagonist, it gives a better immersion in the story

[AngryFrozenWater]

erynnar wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

erynnar wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

It depends on the game. In the Fallout series or Elder Scrolls, silent protagonist is the way to go. The writers generally do a great job with lines for your character and even include changes based on how you built your character (more Fallout than ES, admittedly; low int runs ftw). It also worked out great in VtM:Bloodlines, based on how you built your character and what species you were (Malk runs ftw).

But voiced protagonists work too; I can quite happily pop Tales of Symphonia or Vesperia in, play them and enjoy them just fine. You don't get as many choices with what the character is and you usually don't get to radically alter the game with choices, but they still make for an enjoyable experience.

When it comes down to it, I'd say that when I play a silent protagonist, it is much easier for me to slip into his shoes, be he Bhaalspawn, Nerevarine, Chosen One, Fledgling Vamp, etc. The dialog usually has more branches that let you roleplay out your character.

Voiced protagonist isn't bad, but I know that the character I'm controlling isn't mine; Cecil isn't mine, Lloyd isn't mine, J.C. Denton isn't mine (though he does have a lot of options and he gets props for that), etc. Shepard isn't really mine either, but that may be due more to the dialog wheel than anything, where he'll do something unexpected.

Well said Blue, I do like Geralt and he is a voiced fixed protag. ME series has theirs. Voiced can work and does. I like playing TW2. But Geralt isn't mine. And since my face customization on Hawke is limited, for me, due to voice, she becomes like Geralt. Not mine, not a skin I can actually step into. Now, did I enjoy Legacy? Yep, and Hawke was still voiced and not mine. I just don't enjoy it as much as stepping into the skin of the silent one and being them.

This is a rare occaission in which I disagree with you. You specifically mention you stepping into the skin and be you. I am not able to accomplish that in both DA:O and DA2. That has to do with the third person perspective. I am looking at someone who is clearly not me. I cannot make him look like me. So, I rather play like someone else. And because of that I am happy with the voice. No voice would feel odd. The PC can even have the opposite sex or another race. Things would be different when playing in first person perspective. That makes me feel like I am looking through the eyes of the PC. In that case I prefer the PC to be my gender and skin color and be silient. In that case a voice would distract from the illusion.

And I apologize. I was not clear, I am stepping into the role and not playing me, but me playing the personality that I made up for my character. All my Wardens are completely different people. My apologies!

Bah. So now I am supposed to agree with you again? Sigh.

:lol:

[bleetman]

Voiced protagonists work for me provided they have a voice I'd be willing to listen to for fourty~ hours, which applies to both the actual talent on display and the tone/style of the delivery. Every line Geralt speaks in his usual grating monotone is akin to a thousand years of suffering as far as my ears are concerned, and I have real problems playing as a result.

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

erynnar wrote...

dheer wrote...

erynnar wrote...
Since the image can't be found dheer, I can't tell if you're being snarky or agreeing with them.ROFL!  

Bah, I fail at linking. Fixed now I hope.

Darn it! You are a tease!

Damn straight. I never thought I would say this but thank the stars for Bethesda.

[erynnar]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

erynnar wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

erynnar wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

It depends on the game. In the Fallout series or Elder Scrolls, silent protagonist is the way to go. The writers generally do a great job with lines for your character and even include changes based on how you built your character (more Fallout than ES, admittedly; low int runs ftw). It also worked out great in VtM:Bloodlines, based on how you built your character and what species you were (Malk runs ftw).

But voiced protagonists work too; I can quite happily pop Tales of Symphonia or Vesperia in, play them and enjoy them just fine. You don't get as many choices with what the character is and you usually don't get to radically alter the game with choices, but they still make for an enjoyable experience.

When it comes down to it, I'd say that when I play a silent protagonist, it is much easier for me to slip into his shoes, be he Bhaalspawn, Nerevarine, Chosen One, Fledgling Vamp, etc. The dialog usually has more branches that let you roleplay out your character.

Voiced protagonist isn't bad, but I know that the character I'm controlling isn't mine; Cecil isn't mine, Lloyd isn't mine, J.C. Denton isn't mine (though he does have a lot of options and he gets props for that), etc. Shepard isn't really mine either, but that may be due more to the dialog wheel than anything, where he'll do something unexpected.

Well said Blue, I do like Geralt and he is a voiced fixed protag. ME series has theirs. Voiced can work and does. I like playing TW2. But Geralt isn't mine. And since my face customization on Hawke is limited, for me, due to voice, she becomes like Geralt. Not mine, not a skin I can actually step into. Now, did I enjoy Legacy? Yep, and Hawke was still voiced and not mine. I just don't enjoy it as much as stepping into the skin of the silent one and being them.

This is a rare occaission in which I disagree with you. You specifically mention you stepping into the skin and be you. I am not able to accomplish that in both DA:O and DA2. That has to do with the third person perspective. I am looking at someone who is clearly not me. I cannot make him look like me. So, I rather play like someone else. And because of that I am happy with the voice. No voice would feel odd. The PC can even have the opposite sex or another race. Things would be different when playing in first person perspective. That makes me feel like I am looking through the eyes of the PC. In that case I prefer the PC to be my gender and skin color and be silient. In that case a voice would distract from the illusion.

And I apologize. I was not clear, I am stepping into the role and not playing me, but me playing the personality that I made up for my character. All my Wardens are completely different people. My apologies!

Bah. So now I am supposed to agree with you again? Sigh.

:lol:

ROFL!!! Not at all! *tickles*

[Shazzie]

My vote is for silent protagonist (not that it will matter in the long run, 'voiced is here to stay' and all that).

I don't want the wrong voice for my character, a voice I never had any choice in, saying words I never explicitly chose her to say... that's not roleplaying. That's pushing buttons to have an interactive movie progress, and I have zero interest in interactive cinema.

[Zodann]

Silent protagonist as it gives more in depth dialogue options ala DA:O which I loved, never did like the ME1/2 way of dumbing down the game. Dialogue system has been strong suit of Bioware, please understand it's strengths BW; games like BG, KOTOR are ageless because of this.

Perhaps you could put in option to use dumbed down dialogue with voice-overs, use voice over for parts of the dialogue. For some gamers it's more fun to ponder the actual effect of the choices you make that actually make a difference instead of the current voiced over dumbness.

Modifié par Zodann, 08 août 2011 - 08:54 .

[KLUME777]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

erynnar wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

It depends on the game. In the Fallout series or Elder Scrolls, silent protagonist is the way to go. The writers generally do a great job with lines for your character and even include changes based on how you built your character (more Fallout than ES, admittedly; low int runs ftw). It also worked out great in VtM:Bloodlines, based on how you built your character and what species you were (Malk runs ftw).

But voiced protagonists work too; I can quite happily pop Tales of Symphonia or Vesperia in, play them and enjoy them just fine. You don't get as many choices with what the character is and you usually don't get to radically alter the game with choices, but they still make for an enjoyable experience.

When it comes down to it, I'd say that when I play a silent protagonist, it is much easier for me to slip into his shoes, be he Bhaalspawn, Nerevarine, Chosen One, Fledgling Vamp, etc. The dialog usually has more branches that let you roleplay out your character.

Voiced protagonist isn't bad, but I know that the character I'm controlling isn't mine; Cecil isn't mine, Lloyd isn't mine, J.C. Denton isn't mine (though he does have a lot of options and he gets props for that), etc. Shepard isn't really mine either, but that may be due more to the dialog wheel than anything, where he'll do something unexpected.

Well said Blue, I do like Geralt and he is a voiced fixed protag. ME series has theirs. Voiced can work and does. I like playing TW2. But Geralt isn't mine. And since my face customization on Hawke is limited, for me, due to voice, she becomes like Geralt. Not mine, not a skin I can actually step into. Now, did I enjoy Legacy? Yep, and Hawke was still voiced and not mine. I just don't enjoy it as much as stepping into the skin of the silent one and being them.

This is a rare occaission in which I disagree with you. You specifically mention you stepping into the skin and be you. I am not able to accomplish that in both DA:O and DA2. That has to do with the third person perspective. I am looking at someone who is clearly not me. I cannot make him look like me. So, I rather play like someone else. And because of that I am happy with the voice. No voice would feel odd. The PC can even have the opposite sex or another race. Things would be different when playing in first person perspective. That makes me feel like I am looking through the eyes of the PC. In that case I prefer the PC to be my gender and skin color and be silient. In that case a voice would distract from the illusion.

I am able to step into the skin and be me, even if the character is another gender. I don't know how, but it works. But not with voice.


EDIT: But sometimes i also make a personality up for my Warden and play that personality.

Modifié par KLUME777, 08 août 2011 - 09:15 .

[Hello There]

Zjarcal wrote...

Hello There wrote...

I have to say I am (pleasently) surprised with these poll results.

I had assumed that there were more people that like voice protagonist, but this does not seem the case. Perhaps if we get vocal enough, we may even persuade Bioware to turn Dragon Age back (as its only fair. The voiced fans have Mass Effect, us silent fans should have Dragon Age, especially since it was meant to be the successor to Baldurs Gate).

Well done, BSN!

1. Voiced is still winning (even if it's by a small margin)

2. A 50/50 divided poll consisting of little over 200 users is not only NOT a significant sample, but it won't persuade anyone to change a set course.

1. Not anymore:lol:
2. A single signature (and a poll is basically that) represents 100 (or 1000?) people when the government views something. I wouldn't say it would be much different here.

[Aradace]

Regardless of what this poll says, it's already been said, (once again for those that didnt catch it before) that you are NOT getting a silent protagonist in the next DA game. Period. The End. /thread

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

In Exile wrote...
I still don't understand why you brought up emergent gameplay.

It was a silly aside to the point you made about everything in the game being wholly pre-scripted. It actually wasn't meant to be a serious post until you ran with it and claimed that there is no such thing as emergent gameplay.

And if they didn't know, certainly hearing radio reports about an unamed suspect removing Caesar is a consequence, versus a known suspect (Courier, or whatever other reputation you have) removing Caesar, with alleged reports of what happened (some distortions, some true).

That's reactivity. When the game responds to what you do and addresses the consequences of what you do. 

I didn't argue with that, I even said I agreed with that... you're trying to respond to points I didn't make.

Right. If you use the pre-scripted event. Which is what I said originally: that all differences in the game are pre-scripted, and there's no 'emerging' aside from head-cannon.

Except the gameplay. Hence, emergent gameplay. I didn't claim that an emergent narrative occurs. That tends to happen in Sims games. In fact, that's the entire point of Sims games, emergent narratives.

To roleplay, it's essentially irrelevant.

So you believe that the playing component is irrelevant to roleplaying?

No. It isn't my sort of game. 

I disagree, while it doesn't have your 3 tiered character system or something similar (which ironically becomes harder to make meaningful with both a VA and set protagonist at the same time), it has a lot of what you've argued for, from set protagonists, to the tonal based dialog system, to the branching narrative.

Or is there some other reason it's not your type of game? The setting, perhaps? The gameplay?

-----

Now as far as the the discussion of voiced/unvoiced goes:

Some of us like to create our own characters and inject them into the game's narrative (the blank slate), others like to see how fixed characters evolve as they make decisions with them. I feel like the silent protagonist works better with the former, the voiced protagonist works better with the latter. For example, would an Elder Scrolls game work well with a voiced protagonist? Not so sure, because a voiced protagonist cannot capture all the subtleties and possibilities of a player-made character in that environment and prevents players from trying to have them. In a similar fashion, Geralt is much less effective without a voice. The voice gives him personality and context, making him a stronger character.

I don't consider either way "doing it wrong", just a preference.

I don't buy the "removes ambiguity" or "reactions" lines whatsoever. You keep using them yet you never actually show why they are problems inherent to a silent protagonist.  Removes ambiguity? From what? The tonal delivery? Then just make tones explicit. There's also the concept of context. If you've taken a serious tone for most of the conversation, you won't suddenly be slapstick silly sarcastic in your responses halfway through the conversation. Reactions? Well, if you have prescribed tones, then why would NPC reactions be a problem?

Also and I think this is important too (though it is a tangent).

Dialog is not the only way to RP and until recently (say Fallout 1 or Baldur's Gate), was actually a minor aspect of roleplaying.

Namely because roleplaying was typically done through the character system and the gameplay. Of course, as you lose aspects of the game to roleplay through, all you have left is dialog. So it's not too surprising. But sadly, I see Heavy Rain as the logical conclusion to that type of design.

A character concept and/or personality extends to the entire character, not just how one reacts in dialog. Yet you seem to think that the character exists entirely in a bubble of dialog and nowhere else.

Apologies if that's not true, but that's a clear perception that I get.

In the end though, we're arguing preferrences and I've yet to see you prove otherwise.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 08 août 2011 - 09:48 .

[xkg]

Aradace wrote...

Regardless of what this poll says, it's already been said, (once again for those that didnt catch it before) that you are NOT getting a silent protagonist in the next DA game. Period. The End. /thread

Why are you so sure that what is said is done ? Maybe you have heard this proverb :
"A wise man changes his mind, a fool never will."

[LedinToke]

I enjoy how mass effect's shepard has his own voice. I play with the default look and I honestly enjoy the character and how you can somewhat control his personality.

I liked Dragon Age because you had more options as far as responses to certain situations in the game. In mass effect you had 5 at the most, but in dragon age almost every single conversation had 4 or 5 options at minimum.

I saw no reason for bioware to make dragon age 2 more like mass effect in this regard. I enjoyed the difference between the two.

[Aradace]

xkg wrote...

Aradace wrote...

Regardless of what this poll says, it's already been said, (once again for those that didnt catch it before) that you are NOT getting a silent protagonist in the next DA game. Period. The End. /thread

Why are you so sure that what is said is done ? Maybe you have heard this proverb :
"A wise man changes his mind, a fool never will."

*grins* You go on believing that, it's your right to do so.  However, when it doesnt happen, I'll be the first to tell you "I told you so".  You can either accept that this is a permanent change for the DA franchise and deal with it, or you can't and keep hoping for something that will never happen.  Tell you what, you'll get your "silent protagonist" back in the next DA game when I get the New Game+ option.  Which, btw isnt going to happen unfortunately but I've accepted that and have moved on.  You, and those of like mind should try it sometime.  You know, "moving on"

Modifié par Aradace, 08 août 2011 - 11:38 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Actually, this isn't a which will BioWare have for future games thread, this is a "what is your opinion on voiced/silent protagonist" thread.

[Aradace]

mrcrusty wrote...

Actually, this isn't a which will BioWare have for future games thread, this is a "what is your opinion on voiced/silent protagonist" thread.

Regardless, the implied agenda is there.  I can guarantee someone, somewhere will take the results of this poll and try to go on some holy crusade, preaching to BW "See? More people like silent protagonists!! You should bring them back!!!" 

[KLUME777]

Aradace wrote...

xkg wrote...

Aradace wrote...

Regardless of what this poll says, it's already been said, (once again for those that didnt catch it before) that you are NOT getting a silent protagonist in the next DA game. Period. The End. /thread

Why are you so sure that what is said is done ? Maybe you have heard this proverb :
"A wise man changes his mind, a fool never will."

*grins* You go on believing that, it's your right to do so.  However, when it doesnt happen, I'll be the first to tell you "I told you so".  You can either accept that this is a permanent change for the DA franchise and deal with it, or you can't and keep hoping for something that will never happen.  Tell you what, you'll get your "silent protagonist" back in the next DA game when I get the New Game+ option.  Which, btw isnt going to happen unfortunately but I've accepted that and have moved on.  You, and those of like mind should try it sometime.  You know, "moving on"

The thing is, you already have it in Mass Effect. Dragon Age is its own game (or it used to be), we don't need all of Mass Effects features to be in Dragon Age. I prefer the Origin's style, and i don't want to lose that. It may be easier for you to move on when you have Mass Effect, but we've got nothing in the woodworks, so obviously i would like to at least try to fight for what i want.

Modifié par KLUME777, 08 août 2011 - 11:59 .

[KLUME777]

Damned BSN, double post.

Modifié par KLUME777, 08 août 2011 - 11:55 .