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[john-in-france]

If you are bored, squicked, or offended by the idea of historical comparisons, please avoid this thread.

This topic has been knocking around for a while so here is a thread to continue the lastest discussion from the SSG.

Rules of the discussion/debate thread:

DA Universe from Origins, Awakenings, DA2, Dragonage Codex and Wiki, Official DA books. No fan fiction to be cited.

The Holy Crusades 1095 - 1291 AD and possibly up to the fall of the Templars 1312 AD, Medieval history of the time period, including religious beliefs but no specific Bible quotes allowed, as some find that offensive, you can use medieval mystics instead. No fiction at all, including TV shows and other computer games.

Absolutely no fire balling or trolling, you will be reported and ignored.
Discussion, be nice everyone. Debate, state your opinion, no 'I will convert you' talk.

If this thread inspires you to write some fan fiction, please post a link.

Please leave the following at the door:
Arrows of Righteousness
Glowing fists of Vengeance
Swords of Andraste
Staffs of Justice/Wrath

So...topics:
Andrastean faith and Chantry, Demons and Spirits, Maleficar and Sorcerers, Courtly love, Military orders, Old religions etc. Just chose an appropriate topic and go for it!

This leads to the current topic which is already in progress Demons and Spirits. I'll just cut and paste where we've got to in the next post, won't be long!

Judy.

Modifié par john-in-france, 06 août 2011 - 01:47 .

[john-in-france]

nitefyre410 wrote...

john-in-france wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

rak72 wrote...

I don't nesesarily agree killing andres is counter to being a good person/ andrastian.
Anders is an abomination and a threat to society, so ...

Just a question - if  Anders is an Abomination -  then what does that make Wynne?

An abomination. By her own words in Origins.
Being a nice Amell there, I do say that being an abomination depends on whether she retains her humanity or not.

Wynne was possessed by a spirit that seemed to be in line with her own moral values. Thus the spirit seemed to remain pure.

Anders was possessed by a spirit of Justice that he corrupted by his own anger (From the Anders dialogue), thus whilst he started out possessed by a spirit, he ended up possessed by a demon of his own making. Fallen angel style - Lucifer the light bringer rebelling against God, then becoming the first Satan of hell. In medieval literature there is more than one Satan in hell, it being a title of a ruler of one of the rings of hell, Lucifer being the ruler of the ring associated with  Pride.

Judy
PS I'm not religious but can see parallels - Anders as Lucifer both the Angel (Described as beautiful and aided mankind), then the Satan (I'd rather rule in hell, than serve in heaven), and Sebastian as the Archangel Michael (peacekeeper normal Sebastian,  and holy warrior, Exalted March Sebastian).
PPS I have an obsession with the history of medieval europe during the time of the crusades.

 

True but that Is only by her understanding as well  - which given the limited of knowledge of the Spirits and Demons  the Chantry  has given them is now suprise. 

Oh I could  really takes us over the deep end for something I that I have been pondering for years.  "If Angels have not will of their own  and can only follow Gods will.  How can Lucifer rebel  against God?"    

i don't want bog the thread down with the discussion because it will mostly  derail the thread. Just in short the Chantry has very limited knowledge on  Fade and its  denizens.   Spirits and Demons  seemed to be based of the classical virtues and vices... So what would the  polar opposite  of Justice be ,  I don't know  about it being  Vengence cause  Vengence is Justice in its most extreme sense not its opposite.  From the Chatry's on words Spirits are not demons but they can become Demons.  Example a Spirit of Faith would become  its Demon  Nihlism.    Just a brief  thought Im not going bog thread dones with so  

Just a theory on how the two could - could be different.   

john-in-france wrote...

I also have that question, but always took the Lucifer story as allegory. However in medieval times angels were believed to have a will of their own but served God. We could discuss this elsewhere, on a new thread perhaps exploring the specific similarities between DA universe and the time of the Crusades.

Opposite of Justice using medieval texts on vice is Wrath: the love of justice perverted to revenge and spite.

Judy

[john-in-france]

Virtues and their opposites are perhaps the same for Demons and Spirits?

So:

Commonly used medieval Virtues: Justice, Fortitude, Temperance, Diligence, Prudence, Faith, Hope, Love/Charity, Chastity, Diligence, Patience, Valour and Humility.

Sins commonly cited: Wrath, Gluttony, Lust, Avarice, Pride, Envy, Sloth, Envy, Despair, Vanity, Fornication.

Modifié par john-in-france, 06 août 2011 - 01:46 .

[john-in-france]

Commonly used opposites:

Justice and Wrath.
Temperance and Gluttony.
Diligence and Sloth.
Hope and Despair.
Love and Pride.
Chastity and Lust.
Celibacy (not a common virtue) and Fornication.

I guess these would be the ones where the person could corrupt the spirit into the demonic version.

Modifié par john-in-france, 06 août 2011 - 01:54 .

[nitefyre410]

Sorry I'm late

So  as you can see started a  simple question

We know that abominations are mages possessed by  Fade Demons  such lust, Sloth, wrath, ettc. 

What the Chantry decrees and let me make this clear  What the Chantry  decrees is that by their teachings both Anders and Wynne are abomnination  there is an issues with this. Anders and Wynne are not possessed by demons. 

Will  Vengence  is  Justice in the extreme  it is not  its polar oppiosite which would be  Wrath.  Matter of  vengence is what Justice becomes  when  one lacks  wisdom  and  temperance.    

 

[john-in-france]

No technically if you used a medieval idea, and if Spirits and Angels are similar, then they are inspired by a spirit. Sadly if said spirit was then corrupted, they would be possessed.

Vengeance instead of Wrath is easy. The word Wrath has drifted from its original meaning of the love of Justice turned to revenge and spite, it is now usually just used for anger. So modern vice/virtue listings are likely to use Justice/Revenge (Vengeance) instead.

Modifié par john-in-france, 06 août 2011 - 03:08 .

[john-in-france]

Following on from there now I've had something to eat...

Possession Vs Inspiration.

The medieval ideas on this were pretty simple:

Possession was by demons or devils that corrupted the soul/personality. A long, slow process until only an attachment to the controlling vice remained.

Inspiration is...difficult.
Technically, inspiration can be by a spirit and does not last 24/7 but tends to come in dreams and waking visions. It also opens the soul/personality to attacks by demons and thus corruption.

Inspiration by the Divine (Godhead) or Maker in DA would lead to the ability to prophecy and ecstatic experiences. Like the songs of Andraste to the Maker, medieval mystics such as Mechthild of Magdebourg would see the face of the Divine itself, and then try to translate that into their worldview.

For instance this ecstatic vision, narrated as a talk between the Godhead and the soul, could easily be mistaken for one of Andraste songs:


AND GOD SAID TO THE SOUL:
I desired you before the world began.
I desire you now
As you desire me.
And where the desires of two come together
There love is perfected

HOW THE SOUL SPEAKS TO GODHEAD
Lord, you are my lover,
My longing,
My flowing stream,
My sun,
And I am your reflection.

HOW GOD ANSWERS THE SOUL
It is my nature that makes me love you often,
For I am love itself.
It is my longing that makes me love you intensely,
For I yearn to be loved from the heart.
It is my eternity that makes me love you long,
For I have no end.

Not something that modern Christianity would recognise as being Christian in nature.

So if inspiration leaves people open to possession from demons in medieval literature, is the same true of DA? The present Chantry line suggests so.
Of course some books will be hidden and forbidden, some for political reasons, others for presently being heretical theologically, and maybe others for showing the path to such inspiration.

More importantly from any point of view, why?
Why would an ecstatic vision, true prophecy or simple inspired acts attract demons? Is it as simple as each action has an equal but opposite reaction?

At the beginning of DA2 using this reasoning, Anders is inspired by the Spirit of Justice.
By his own admission the Spirit becomes corrupted. Are all demons of the Fade in fact corrupted Spirits that once sought the touch of man?

[Huntress]

In DA every thing that a person "feels"  already exist or manisfest in the fade, it doesn't matter if is good or bad this " spirits" have their own goals and dreams just like human's do. Demons, Spirits or Feelings feed from the souls and the Souls gets stronger from them.

 It seem even "Faith" is attracted to the ones who like wynne had her dought's of their diety, religion rules and all other sort of things.
Probably wynne wanted to die that day in the tower because she believed whatever was happening was her fault ( magic fault), "faith" taking over her showed her, that was not the case at all? And yet Faith been on wynne is seen as an abomination itself.

To me is like Merril said, different realms with different people (sorta) and I do believe her, everyone takes notes of what they don't like to see, than what they like, thats why when rage, vengance, righteous present themself people do nOT like it and do not want to suffered or speak of it.

I think "inspiration" spirit can be as good or bad as any demon or spirit and is all about how true and clean the soul is when inspiration touch it.
If the soul is corrupted/sick "new and horrible creations"  will come from this inspired and evil person But, if the soul is clean and true most likely it'll create an artist, musician, a poet, even prophets.

But  talking about prophets i get all sorta bad feeling, some of them become so lunatic and fanatic that can destroy hole town, civilization without the use of "magic spells" this type of people are well paid by religions, the more catastrophic the vision the more power it gives to the religion who has them under their wing. And the more books they can sale.
We haven't meet this type of people in DA but I think they'll be very difficult to reach or kill and it seems more likely we will be able to kill the Divines sooner than finding a Prophet ( if the Divines are not prophets themself).

About why visions, prophets or inspired people attract demons/spirits? Is because the Soul's attract them.
I believe people soul's attract the " right" spirit to them is not that only demons will show up is just that many of this spirit manifests the same way as the soul who they want to feed from, Spirits and demons feed's from Souls and vice versa.
If you want power, admiration " pride" will show up, if you believe you are guilty for been born a mage and only magic people are evil but you have a "good" soul, faith, "piety" "love" shows up, if a person believe everything should be a contest "valor" shows up.
Of course ALL the demons sees this souls as attractive and delicious as spirits do and try to trick them, but is the SOUL who chooses.
Why religion cover up everything? because the less people knows about it, the less explanations are given and people will accept anything given for an answer as true and right.

If the people of Thedas comes to a book that said Andrastes was a "mage" and that as a mage she wanted to cleanse the "bad magic" ( blood-magic) with "good magic" from Thedas and the Maker gave her power... hell will be lose in Thedas, mages and family of mages that were killed or turned to tranquil without this mages permision or without any reason at all, will kill anyone who mention the chantry because mentioning that is like mentioning lies, deception and cruelty and they'll see the templars as "minions" and not as champions of the chantry.

Modifié par Huntress, 06 août 2011 - 07:39 .

[john-in-france]

Inspiration in this context is not a spirit, it is the medieval wording for a divine form of possession, a possession by saints, angels, muses, spirits or God.

Demons possess.
Spirits or Godhead Inspire.

Continues to read...

For good or ill Andraste is described as a prophet, and she does indeed lead an Exhalted March. There is still some debate over whether she was a mage or not. Bioware have not confirmed it, just said that there was a book saying that she might have been.

I don't have a problem with Andraste being a mage, though some of the mages might.

No, being a mage in DA does not specifically attract Possession or Inspiration.
As we have seen non-mages may be possessed, including Templar, but we will save the Templar/Demon debate for the greater dissection later. They do not fair well in medieval literature.

Nice argument, well put!

Modifié par john-in-france, 06 août 2011 - 07:51 .

[philippe willaume]

The actual crusade where as much a religious as a political events.

In medieval terms the secular (kings and lords) was a very distinct and separate mater from the divine (the pope), however there is a fair amount of example where one was used as justification for the other. Hence the race to elect a pope that supports your faction.

The books on possession and such like comes a little bit later from what you have cited late 14th, before that the crime is heresy (i.e. believing in system of believe frowned upon by the church). That did mostly include different interpretation of the Roman Catholic faith.
So you could make the line between the apostate and the heretics. Though the game apostate are technically apostate (negation of the established dogma) and heretics (system of belief that conflicts with the dogma)

That being said the demographic explosion in the 12-13th century and the difficulty it caused the socio-economical model to cope should not be glossed over.
And really you could not dissociate all the other papal sponsored events before and after the dates you propose.
Lots of crusade where really granting legitimacy and a blank cards for exaction to state invasion or police operation. (ie Guillaume in 1066 or the later albigeois crusades)

Until late in the 15th century, it is a mortal sin to kill a Christian, even in war, and I did it because the king told me to would not wash in from of st peter who would come with a “denied” worthy of Bill and Ted. (If the target is not a Christian every thing goes)
Hence to good war bad war speech and the active search for church support.

As for medieval knightly virtues, according to Geoffrey de Charny , author of the book of chivalry, who died in the battle of Poitier, there are only two virtues: make sure you are good at wasting people and let nothing gets in the way.
“...no one should be dismayed at the thought of undertaking great deeds, for the above-mentioned men of standing tell us truly that those who have the will to achieve great worth are already on the way to great achievement. And they speak the truth, for because of their great desire to reach and attain that high honor, they do not care what sufferings they have to endure, but turn everything into great enjoyment. Indeed, it is a fine thing to perform great deeds, for those who rise to great achievement cannot rightly grow tired or sated with it; so the more they achieve, the less they feel they have achieved; this stems from the delight they take in striving constantly to reach greater heights. And great good comes from performing these deeds, for the more that one does, the less is one proud of oneself, and it always seems that there is so much left to do.”

Or may be those few lines in most of the fencing manual of the lichtanauer tradition (that one from 1430 from the fencing instruictor of the duke palatine of the Reinh
Die vor red der zedel
Jungk ritter, lere got lieb haben fröwen ia ere, so wöchse dein ere. Vebe ritterschaft und lere kunst, die dich ziert, jn kriegen zu° ern hoffiert. (11 v )
Ringet gütt, fesset glefen, sper, schwert vnd messer manlich bederben. Haw drin hart dar! Rausch hin: triff oder las farnm daß in die wysen hassen, den man sicht brysen. Daruff dich fasse: alle kunst haben lenge vnd masse.

The foreword of the manual
Young knight, learn to love God and to honour women, so that you honour grows, cultivate knightly crafts and the arts which enshrine (lit which blankets you) you so that you fulfil your duty in war.
Wrestle well and handle the lance, the spear, the sword and the messer with manly gestures. Strike hard therein, rustle away/along: walk or let drive (I.E meet him or let him go by), for (dass=insomuch or that introducing a cause or a consequence hence usage of for) the sages hate one that lets himself being tied. Thereupon convince yourself: all arts have a length and a measure.

phil

[BlackLotus30]

The thing is that it is the CHANTRY that call spirits bad. I can understand and beleive that a demon possessing a mage can be a bad thing since they can become abobinations(sp?) and a lot of people can die because of it.

http://dragonage.wik...om/wiki/Spirits <-- here is the wiki entry on Spirits.

So perhaps that what happened to Andraste? She merged with a Spirit and went to do what she was set to do. If more people merged with spirit we would have a lot of prophets and rather specials inviduals. Wynne was one of them since Faith merged with her it extended her life in a matter of speaking and got a bit more mileage out of that old tired body that would have died in the Circle.

I don't think the Chantry would like that since Andrastes would not be a special case anymore and the basis for Chantry existing. Lets not forget that Andrastes heard a voice speaking to her and beleived it was the Maker, spirits and demons can "speak" to people in the fade or awake.

I may not know a lot about medieval times or the crusades but I did scourge throught most of the DA wiki