I have always been confused by this. There are so many items in the game and I have no idea which to go for.
So what are the best stat items to go for, for each class? As in the rings, belts and necklaces.
Thanks in advance.
Item stats for each class
Débuté par
y2ck01
, août 06 2011 04:00
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#2
Posté 06 août 2011 - 04:27
Tails_Night
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I'm actually curious about this as well. BUt since there's also an item post I'm also curious if the dlc or unlockable items improve if you gather them at a higher level.
#3
Posté 06 août 2011 - 05:01
SuicidalBaby
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Mage items will depend on if you are going for a blood mage build or non-blood mage build.
Non-Blood mages need to focus on element +%, mana, mana regen, and willpower.
Blood mages need to reach at least 4:1 ratio of conversion gear, which is 4 items on top of the 2 ability points they need to spend. They will be Mage Adapt gear with 2 stats, 1 of which is Blood Magic +.25, the other will be +% fire damage. Hands of Fate from the Black Emporium and any +% element gear that aligns with what you are using or plan on using.
Rogues will focus on +critical chance and +critical damage. Anything with +attack is not required but it helps a little.
Warriors will focus on gathering all the +% element gear they can early in the game so when they use the weapons that carry a base damage as an element they can make the most out it.
This thread is required reading for all serious warrior builds. As is this thread. And this thread, but please be aware that it was made before the inclusion of the restrictions repaired on Allure's Crook. That build is still viable with the Celebrant and the Edge of Night. This thread details how Desmona's Blade can be argued as the best weapon for a S/S warrior up through all of act 2.
If you do not have the dlc content, most of the items you are looking for as "the best" are going to be the generic random items(white) that occasionally are rare(gold). What you find through creature drops or items in shops with randomly generated slots of equipment are going to be the "best" as you will use them more, by far, than any specific uber item. Most "must have items" are not untill late game.
There are, of course, exceptions to this rule:
For any class: (Select builds for each class can use these items effectively)
Ring of the Ferryman
Etched Ring of the Twins
Robes of Unblemished Cleanliness
Belt of the Primevils
Neophyte and Adept Mage Armor (+fire)
Etched Silverite Belt - Best belt in the game as you can use it through all of the game
Summation:
The best items are those you can find or obtain at the begining of any Act and use throughout that section or all of the game.
Such as in Act 1 you can gain access to these items virtually right away:
(Long Way Home opens the Docks to access the items not found in the Black Emporium.)
Mages will seek out Staff of the Primal Order for mages, it's only 8g.
Rogues will seek out the Arm of Aduril and the Tarnished Blade/Corrupted Blade.
Warriors will seek out Anderfel's Cleaver or Desmona's Blade at the Black Emporium.
All classes will seek out the Etched Silverite Belt for just under 6g.
Non-Blood mages need to focus on element +%, mana, mana regen, and willpower.
Blood mages need to reach at least 4:1 ratio of conversion gear, which is 4 items on top of the 2 ability points they need to spend. They will be Mage Adapt gear with 2 stats, 1 of which is Blood Magic +.25, the other will be +% fire damage. Hands of Fate from the Black Emporium and any +% element gear that aligns with what you are using or plan on using.
Rogues will focus on +critical chance and +critical damage. Anything with +attack is not required but it helps a little.
Warriors will focus on gathering all the +% element gear they can early in the game so when they use the weapons that carry a base damage as an element they can make the most out it.
This thread is required reading for all serious warrior builds. As is this thread. And this thread, but please be aware that it was made before the inclusion of the restrictions repaired on Allure's Crook. That build is still viable with the Celebrant and the Edge of Night. This thread details how Desmona's Blade can be argued as the best weapon for a S/S warrior up through all of act 2.
If you do not have the dlc content, most of the items you are looking for as "the best" are going to be the generic random items(white) that occasionally are rare(gold). What you find through creature drops or items in shops with randomly generated slots of equipment are going to be the "best" as you will use them more, by far, than any specific uber item. Most "must have items" are not untill late game.
There are, of course, exceptions to this rule:
For any class: (Select builds for each class can use these items effectively)
Ring of the Ferryman
Etched Ring of the Twins
Robes of Unblemished Cleanliness
Belt of the Primevils
Neophyte and Adept Mage Armor (+fire)
Etched Silverite Belt - Best belt in the game as you can use it through all of the game
Summation:
The best items are those you can find or obtain at the begining of any Act and use throughout that section or all of the game.
Such as in Act 1 you can gain access to these items virtually right away:
(Long Way Home opens the Docks to access the items not found in the Black Emporium.)
Mages will seek out Staff of the Primal Order for mages, it's only 8g.
Rogues will seek out the Arm of Aduril and the Tarnished Blade/Corrupted Blade.
Warriors will seek out Anderfel's Cleaver or Desmona's Blade at the Black Emporium.
All classes will seek out the Etched Silverite Belt for just under 6g.
Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 06 août 2011 - 06:45 .
#4
Posté 08 août 2011 - 07:41
ripstrawberry
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"Mage items will depend on if you are going for a blood mage build or non-blood mage build.
Non-Blood mages need to focus on element +%, mana, mana regen, and willpower.
Blood mages need to reach at least 4:1 ratio of conversion gear, which is 4 items on top of the 2 ability points they need to spend. They will be Mage Adapt gear with 2 stats, 1 of which is Blood Magic +.25, the other will be +% fire damage. Hands of Fate from the Black Emporium and any +% element gear that aligns with what you are using or plan on using."
So 0.25 conversion from gear is better than adding a bunch of hp (like +28 from the fallen star)? I'd also like to add that generally focusing on +crit% and +crit dmg gear for mages is a good alternative as you'll be increasing your dmg across the board and not just a particular element.
"Rogues will focus on +critical chance and +critical damage. Anything with +attack is not required but it helps a little."
Since elemental is the way to go dps-wise, i'd suggest +x% fire dmg gear for archers and +x% nature dmg or +x% spirit dmg gear for DW. +x% physical dmg is also worthwhile at higher crit dmg levels if you're not using the elemental weapons and using hawke's key or something.
"Warriors will focus on gathering all the +% element gear they can early in the game so when they use the weapons that carry a base damage as an element they can make the most out it."
I would also suggest getting +crit% and +crit dmg for warriors especially if they have destroyer and the elemental bonus on a certain type of gear is too low (like on gloves and belts).
"Etched Silverite Belt - Best belt in the game as you can use it through all of the game"
I would beg to disagree that it's the best belt in the game. I would vote belt of promise.
Non-Blood mages need to focus on element +%, mana, mana regen, and willpower.
Blood mages need to reach at least 4:1 ratio of conversion gear, which is 4 items on top of the 2 ability points they need to spend. They will be Mage Adapt gear with 2 stats, 1 of which is Blood Magic +.25, the other will be +% fire damage. Hands of Fate from the Black Emporium and any +% element gear that aligns with what you are using or plan on using."
So 0.25 conversion from gear is better than adding a bunch of hp (like +28 from the fallen star)? I'd also like to add that generally focusing on +crit% and +crit dmg gear for mages is a good alternative as you'll be increasing your dmg across the board and not just a particular element.
"Rogues will focus on +critical chance and +critical damage. Anything with +attack is not required but it helps a little."
Since elemental is the way to go dps-wise, i'd suggest +x% fire dmg gear for archers and +x% nature dmg or +x% spirit dmg gear for DW. +x% physical dmg is also worthwhile at higher crit dmg levels if you're not using the elemental weapons and using hawke's key or something.
"Warriors will focus on gathering all the +% element gear they can early in the game so when they use the weapons that carry a base damage as an element they can make the most out it."
I would also suggest getting +crit% and +crit dmg for warriors especially if they have destroyer and the elemental bonus on a certain type of gear is too low (like on gloves and belts).
"Etched Silverite Belt - Best belt in the game as you can use it through all of the game"
I would beg to disagree that it's the best belt in the game. I would vote belt of promise.
#7
Posté 08 août 2011 - 12:05
Relix28
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Four-Fingered Eddie's Lucky Talisman - must buy for rogues
Puzzle Ring of the Black Fox - another must buy for rogues
Bardin's Folly - high grade ring for warriors
Puzzle Ring of the Black Fox - another must buy for rogues
Bardin's Folly - high grade ring for warriors
Modifié par Relix28, 08 août 2011 - 12:09 .
#8
Posté 08 août 2011 - 02:06
SuicidalBaby
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"So 0.25 conversion from gear is better than adding a bunch of hp (like +28 from the fallen star)?"
yes.
The Belt of Promise is Act 3.
Seven Deadly Cinch is Act 3.
The best items in the game are not the ones you get to use for a single act. They are the items that you use throughout the game for the most amount of time. The items you have suggested are more powerful, yes. They are not better in the sense of how you believe. The reletive strength of an item is based off the level you can aquire it and the duration it is germaine to the build. Both of you missed the entire point of my post as well as the scope of the answer. It was crafted to those who requested information. Niether one of them has Legacy or the Item DLC content.
btw the pure elemental warrior builds will make your crit suggestion fall over dead and stiff from fear.
click on the builds in his signature
yes.
The Belt of Promise is Act 3.
Seven Deadly Cinch is Act 3.
The best items in the game are not the ones you get to use for a single act. They are the items that you use throughout the game for the most amount of time. The items you have suggested are more powerful, yes. They are not better in the sense of how you believe. The reletive strength of an item is based off the level you can aquire it and the duration it is germaine to the build. Both of you missed the entire point of my post as well as the scope of the answer. It was crafted to those who requested information. Niether one of them has Legacy or the Item DLC content.
btw the pure elemental warrior builds will make your crit suggestion fall over dead and stiff from fear.
click on the builds in his signature
Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 08 août 2011 - 02:51 .
#9
Posté 08 août 2011 - 02:43
ripstrawberry
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"The best items in the game are not the ones you get to use for one act. They are the items that you use throughout the game for the most amount of time. The items you have suggested are more powerful, yes. They are not better in the sense of how you believe. Both of you missed the entire point of my post as well as the scope of the answer. It was crafted those those who requested information. Niether one of them has Legacy or the Item DLC content."
Got your intent then. If that's the case then your answer is correct. My bad.
"btw the pure elemental warrior builds will make your crit suggestion fall over dead and stiff from fear."
Nope not really. While IN1 may have started those kinds of builds here, I have known about those builds early as well except I post more in the gamefaqs boards back then. I did what he did but I can't break into codes (PS3) or post videos. So I don't fear them because I was one of the earlier people to think about them but on a different forum. This is irrelevant to the discussion however. I apologize. The crit suggestion is an option based on using excel file comps and I didn't say to ignore elemental bonuses. I just said if the current elemental bonus they have for that piece of equipment is too low, using gear that give +crit% and +crit dmg gear might give more dps, especially w/ destroyer (you get to do 50% more dmg on a crit due to -50% dmg resistance if I'm reading that right). Of course this is also dependent on the current +crit dmg/crit% of the warrior. Just my 2cents on the matter. If I ever get free time to show up with computations then I will do so. Maybe somebody else like theendcomes will post an excel file for warriors here like what he did with mages and we can all see if what I'm seeing is total bollocks. Thanks for the reply on the BM conversion to hp as well. That was very informative. So basically 4 of those kinds of items is worth 75+ hp. 150+ hp if it's a longer battle. So unless a group of 4 items provides me that much increase in hp, i'm better off w/ going the BM conversion route. *does equipment search* XD
Got your intent then. If that's the case then your answer is correct. My bad.
"btw the pure elemental warrior builds will make your crit suggestion fall over dead and stiff from fear."
Nope not really. While IN1 may have started those kinds of builds here, I have known about those builds early as well except I post more in the gamefaqs boards back then. I did what he did but I can't break into codes (PS3) or post videos. So I don't fear them because I was one of the earlier people to think about them but on a different forum. This is irrelevant to the discussion however. I apologize. The crit suggestion is an option based on using excel file comps and I didn't say to ignore elemental bonuses. I just said if the current elemental bonus they have for that piece of equipment is too low, using gear that give +crit% and +crit dmg gear might give more dps, especially w/ destroyer (you get to do 50% more dmg on a crit due to -50% dmg resistance if I'm reading that right). Of course this is also dependent on the current +crit dmg/crit% of the warrior. Just my 2cents on the matter. If I ever get free time to show up with computations then I will do so. Maybe somebody else like theendcomes will post an excel file for warriors here like what he did with mages and we can all see if what I'm seeing is total bollocks. Thanks for the reply on the BM conversion to hp as well. That was very informative. So basically 4 of those kinds of items is worth 75+ hp. 150+ hp if it's a longer battle. So unless a group of 4 items provides me that much increase in hp, i'm better off w/ going the BM conversion route. *does equipment search* XD
#10
Posté 08 août 2011 - 02:55
SuicidalBaby
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bm - basicly. I didn't do the 3:1 conversion table, but I probably will now just to show the huge difference in rates. The nice thing is that it's still a cumulative property in this environment.
#11
Posté 08 août 2011 - 02:58
mr_afk
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In that case you best mention the poisonwood locket. It fits well into warrior and rogue elemental builds for the majority of act 2 (useful against both the shades and qunari you bump into quite often) and can be used as a solid replacement for four fingered eddies lucky talisman in elemental DW builds in act 3 (until you get the money).
Seven deadly cinch, puzzle ring of the black fox and four fingered eddie's are all in the vanilla (non-dlc). They are also probably the best items for all classes so it can be seen as a worthwhile investment to save towards them- even if you only do use them for one act. Because that's what money is all about in this game- buying equipment or tomes to make your character an absolute boss by the end of the game. And that's what I read their question as been. The 'best'/most powerful items to go for, not necessarily the most 'useful'. Though that's also nice to know.
And actually, if you know what you're doing a mixed elemental crit-warrior will outmatch a pure elemental warrior quite easily. IN1's ideas were pretty amazing for that time but they weren't completely optimised- even more so now with dlc items granting +19% crit damage etc.
I've been mucking around with elemental builds for a very long time and I can safely say that the combination of elemental weapons, +% elemental damage from uniques (robes of unblemished and ring of the ferryman), crit gear and bravery make the most powerful warrior. Pure elemental builds are only superior early game before the good crit-gear and talents are available.
@ripstrawberry - As far as I know, destroyer doesn't work like that. It halves the enemy damage resistance, not subtracting 50% damage resistance (that would be ridiculously overpowered).
It means bosses with lots of damage resistance will have less. E.g. If they had 50% you would only have to face 25%. Against critters with no damage resistance it will make no difference.
Seven deadly cinch, puzzle ring of the black fox and four fingered eddie's are all in the vanilla (non-dlc). They are also probably the best items for all classes so it can be seen as a worthwhile investment to save towards them- even if you only do use them for one act. Because that's what money is all about in this game- buying equipment or tomes to make your character an absolute boss by the end of the game. And that's what I read their question as been. The 'best'/most powerful items to go for, not necessarily the most 'useful'. Though that's also nice to know.
And actually, if you know what you're doing a mixed elemental crit-warrior will outmatch a pure elemental warrior quite easily. IN1's ideas were pretty amazing for that time but they weren't completely optimised- even more so now with dlc items granting +19% crit damage etc.
I've been mucking around with elemental builds for a very long time and I can safely say that the combination of elemental weapons, +% elemental damage from uniques (robes of unblemished and ring of the ferryman), crit gear and bravery make the most powerful warrior. Pure elemental builds are only superior early game before the good crit-gear and talents are available.
@ripstrawberry - As far as I know, destroyer doesn't work like that. It halves the enemy damage resistance, not subtracting 50% damage resistance (that would be ridiculously overpowered).
It means bosses with lots of damage resistance will have less. E.g. If they had 50% you would only have to face 25%. Against critters with no damage resistance it will make no difference.
Modifié par mr_afk, 08 août 2011 - 03:01 .
#12
Posté 08 août 2011 - 09:19
thendcomes
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Sorry this part is a little OT to the OP.
Modifying the spreadsheet to work with warriors and rogues would be more complicated. You'd have to introduce specs which would change the damage formula (eg. Berserker), and stat allocation would probably best be done using the Solver. The attribute bonus section, gear section and abilities section would be unchanged except for updating the gear.
For a mage, crit boosting items turn out to be the best for a couple reasons. First, they are least limited by elements at their disposal at any moment, and crit improves the damage from all sources, including physical damage. Second, they have significant +element boosts in the form of passives, which reduces the impact of further element boosting from gear. Among best in slot items for a Mage are FFELT, SDC, PRotBF/ERotT/TGC (the graven circle) etc. The best DPS belt from Act 1 is now the Bloodstained Girdle by a fair amount, as it has 6% crit chance even at level 5. Although I would be hard pressed to recommend going that far into Legacy that early.
On the other hand, an archer is severely limited in that the only elements relevant to him are Fire and Physical against fire immunes. Because an archer is likely to pour his points into Dex and Cunning, and especially assassin/shadow archers with their massive crit damage, I bet anything he will benefit much more per point from +fire damage than either crit chance or crit damage on items. Best in slot would be Eye of Blue (20% fire damage @ level 23), NOT FFELT. Ring of the Ferryman would outperform PRotBF/ERotT/TGC. RoUC would be best as well.
DW rogues have similar issues with Spirit and Nature. Poisonwood Locket or Smite would surely outperform FFELT. Other sources of either damage are small, so a spreadsheet would be needed to determine which are stronger. For the spirit build, there are hard decisions to be made like would you rather wear a strong rogue armor, or a generic +17% spirit robe for your spirit setup?
Warriors are more complicated. Their damage formula changes based on spec. They have several elemental weapons available at different times, and they change depending on 2h vs 1h. I would be interested to find out what performs best on them.
Modifying the spreadsheet to work with warriors and rogues would be more complicated. You'd have to introduce specs which would change the damage formula (eg. Berserker), and stat allocation would probably best be done using the Solver. The attribute bonus section, gear section and abilities section would be unchanged except for updating the gear.
For a mage, crit boosting items turn out to be the best for a couple reasons. First, they are least limited by elements at their disposal at any moment, and crit improves the damage from all sources, including physical damage. Second, they have significant +element boosts in the form of passives, which reduces the impact of further element boosting from gear. Among best in slot items for a Mage are FFELT, SDC, PRotBF/ERotT/TGC (the graven circle) etc. The best DPS belt from Act 1 is now the Bloodstained Girdle by a fair amount, as it has 6% crit chance even at level 5. Although I would be hard pressed to recommend going that far into Legacy that early.
On the other hand, an archer is severely limited in that the only elements relevant to him are Fire and Physical against fire immunes. Because an archer is likely to pour his points into Dex and Cunning, and especially assassin/shadow archers with their massive crit damage, I bet anything he will benefit much more per point from +fire damage than either crit chance or crit damage on items. Best in slot would be Eye of Blue (20% fire damage @ level 23), NOT FFELT. Ring of the Ferryman would outperform PRotBF/ERotT/TGC. RoUC would be best as well.
DW rogues have similar issues with Spirit and Nature. Poisonwood Locket or Smite would surely outperform FFELT. Other sources of either damage are small, so a spreadsheet would be needed to determine which are stronger. For the spirit build, there are hard decisions to be made like would you rather wear a strong rogue armor, or a generic +17% spirit robe for your spirit setup?
Warriors are more complicated. Their damage formula changes based on spec. They have several elemental weapons available at different times, and they change depending on 2h vs 1h. I would be interested to find out what performs best on them.
#13
Posté 09 août 2011 - 10:54
ripstrawberry
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"Bm - basicly. I didn't do the 3:1 conversion table, but I probably will now just to show the huge difference in rates. The nice thing is that it's still a cumulative property in this environment."
Sounds good. I eagerly await it because I've found some items that provide alot of hp like the jewel of the elder, fallen star, the new hawke belt from legacy, etc.
"Seven deadly cinch, puzzle ring of the black fox and four fingered eddie's are all in the vanilla (non-dlc). They are also probably the best items for all classes so it can be seen as a worthwhile investment to save towards them- even if you only do use them for one act. Because that's what money is all about in this game- buying equipment or tomes to make your character an absolute boss by the end of the game. And that's what I read their question as been. The 'best'/most powerful items to go for, not necessarily the most 'useful'. Though that's also nice to know."
That's how I thought of it initially as well.
"And actually, if you know what you're doing a mixed elemental crit-warrior will outmatch a pure elemental warrior quite easily. IN1's ideas were pretty amazing for that time but they weren't completely optimised- even more so now with dlc items granting +19% crit damage etc."
This was what I was talking about above. Mixing multiple dmg boosts is always the best way to go for warriors. Since rogues usually have high crit dmg to begin w/ they only need to focus on elemental or physical dmg boosts. Since mages have some elemental dmg bonuses to begin w/, they can stand to benefit from +crit% and +crit dmg alot because it increases all of their dmg.
"I've been mucking around with elemental builds for a very long time and I can safely say that the combination of elemental weapons, +% elemental damage from uniques (robes of unblemished and ring of the ferryman), crit gear and bravery make the most powerful warrior. Pure elemental builds are only superior early game before the good crit-gear and talents are available."
Agreed that's how I build as well w/ the exception of bravery. I've found it to be really inefficient and a chore to turn on->off->on. From a min-max perspective though your reasoning is sound. I just couldn't be bothered w/ it. I just stick to upgraded control and berserk. I sometimes throw in turn the blade/elemental aegis too because I usually solo.
"@ripstrawberry - As far as I know, destroyer doesn't work like that. It halves the enemy damage resistance, not subtracting 50% damage resistance (that would be ridiculously overpowered)."
Thanks for the info on that one. Yeah the way I interpreted the skill makes it ridiculuously overpowered. I assume hex of torment, spirit dmg and mark of death also work the same way right? Still it's a nice bonus for warriors who crit more often.
"Modifying the spreadsheet to work with warriors and rogues would be more complicated. You'd have to introduce specs which would change the damage formula (eg. Berserker), and stat allocation would probably best be done using the Solver. The attribute bonus section, gear section and abilities section would be unchanged except for updating the gear."
True warriors sounds alot more complicated. I found making the rogue much easier though than both mages and warriors but my excel file for the rogue is very bare bones though. Maybe you can make a separate one? hehehe.
"On the other hand, an archer is severely limited in that the only elements relevant to him are Fire and Physical against fire immunes. Because an archer is likely to pour his points into Dex and Cunning, and especially assassin/shadow archers with their massive crit damage, I bet anything he will benefit much more per point from +fire damage than either crit chance or crit damage on items. Best in slot would be Eye of Blue (20% fire damage @ level 23), NOT FFELT. Ring of the Ferryman would outperform PRotBF/ERotT/TGC. RoUC would be best as well."
Agreed though based on my computations w/ my level 50 rogue, the graven circle outperforms any of the other +fire% dmg rings except the ring of the ferryman so it can be excellent to slot in the 2nd ring slot at higher levels. Stealth boots also outperforms +fire% boots. Otherwise, +fire% dmg is better.
"DW rogues have similar issues with Spirit and Nature. Poisonwood Locket or Smite would surely outperform FFELT. Other sources of either damage are small, so a spreadsheet would be needed to determine which are stronger. For the spirit build, there are hard decisions to be made like would you rather wear a strong rogue armor, or a generic +17% spirit robe for your spirit setup?"
I'd personally pick the spirit robe but generally i favor the nature dmg setup then switch to physicals if the enemy is immune to nature so I rarely pick spirit dmg unless the enemy is weak to it. I think it's a hassle to have 3 different armor setups. I already find having 2 too much.
"Warriors are more complicated. Their damage formula changes based on spec. They have several elemental weapons available at different times, and they change depending on 2h vs 1h. I would be interested to find out what performs best on them."
Based on my rudimentary computations, it seems like what mr_afk and I said awhile ago. Combo of +crit%, crit dmg and +x% elemental dmg is best. I wouldn't give much thought on the dmg bonus from berserk even if fully upgraded because you are bound to zero out your mana w/ insane attack speed anyways. I also didn't count blood frenzy, sacrificial frenzy, and bravery in my computations as the values for those constantly change in battle and my feeble brain can't handle the math involved. hehehe.
Sounds good. I eagerly await it because I've found some items that provide alot of hp like the jewel of the elder, fallen star, the new hawke belt from legacy, etc.
"Seven deadly cinch, puzzle ring of the black fox and four fingered eddie's are all in the vanilla (non-dlc). They are also probably the best items for all classes so it can be seen as a worthwhile investment to save towards them- even if you only do use them for one act. Because that's what money is all about in this game- buying equipment or tomes to make your character an absolute boss by the end of the game. And that's what I read their question as been. The 'best'/most powerful items to go for, not necessarily the most 'useful'. Though that's also nice to know."
That's how I thought of it initially as well.
"And actually, if you know what you're doing a mixed elemental crit-warrior will outmatch a pure elemental warrior quite easily. IN1's ideas were pretty amazing for that time but they weren't completely optimised- even more so now with dlc items granting +19% crit damage etc."
This was what I was talking about above. Mixing multiple dmg boosts is always the best way to go for warriors. Since rogues usually have high crit dmg to begin w/ they only need to focus on elemental or physical dmg boosts. Since mages have some elemental dmg bonuses to begin w/, they can stand to benefit from +crit% and +crit dmg alot because it increases all of their dmg.
"I've been mucking around with elemental builds for a very long time and I can safely say that the combination of elemental weapons, +% elemental damage from uniques (robes of unblemished and ring of the ferryman), crit gear and bravery make the most powerful warrior. Pure elemental builds are only superior early game before the good crit-gear and talents are available."
Agreed that's how I build as well w/ the exception of bravery. I've found it to be really inefficient and a chore to turn on->off->on. From a min-max perspective though your reasoning is sound. I just couldn't be bothered w/ it. I just stick to upgraded control and berserk. I sometimes throw in turn the blade/elemental aegis too because I usually solo.
"@ripstrawberry - As far as I know, destroyer doesn't work like that. It halves the enemy damage resistance, not subtracting 50% damage resistance (that would be ridiculously overpowered)."
Thanks for the info on that one. Yeah the way I interpreted the skill makes it ridiculuously overpowered. I assume hex of torment, spirit dmg and mark of death also work the same way right? Still it's a nice bonus for warriors who crit more often.
"Modifying the spreadsheet to work with warriors and rogues would be more complicated. You'd have to introduce specs which would change the damage formula (eg. Berserker), and stat allocation would probably best be done using the Solver. The attribute bonus section, gear section and abilities section would be unchanged except for updating the gear."
True warriors sounds alot more complicated. I found making the rogue much easier though than both mages and warriors but my excel file for the rogue is very bare bones though. Maybe you can make a separate one? hehehe.
"On the other hand, an archer is severely limited in that the only elements relevant to him are Fire and Physical against fire immunes. Because an archer is likely to pour his points into Dex and Cunning, and especially assassin/shadow archers with their massive crit damage, I bet anything he will benefit much more per point from +fire damage than either crit chance or crit damage on items. Best in slot would be Eye of Blue (20% fire damage @ level 23), NOT FFELT. Ring of the Ferryman would outperform PRotBF/ERotT/TGC. RoUC would be best as well."
Agreed though based on my computations w/ my level 50 rogue, the graven circle outperforms any of the other +fire% dmg rings except the ring of the ferryman so it can be excellent to slot in the 2nd ring slot at higher levels. Stealth boots also outperforms +fire% boots. Otherwise, +fire% dmg is better.
"DW rogues have similar issues with Spirit and Nature. Poisonwood Locket or Smite would surely outperform FFELT. Other sources of either damage are small, so a spreadsheet would be needed to determine which are stronger. For the spirit build, there are hard decisions to be made like would you rather wear a strong rogue armor, or a generic +17% spirit robe for your spirit setup?"
I'd personally pick the spirit robe but generally i favor the nature dmg setup then switch to physicals if the enemy is immune to nature so I rarely pick spirit dmg unless the enemy is weak to it. I think it's a hassle to have 3 different armor setups. I already find having 2 too much.
"Warriors are more complicated. Their damage formula changes based on spec. They have several elemental weapons available at different times, and they change depending on 2h vs 1h. I would be interested to find out what performs best on them."
Based on my rudimentary computations, it seems like what mr_afk and I said awhile ago. Combo of +crit%, crit dmg and +x% elemental dmg is best. I wouldn't give much thought on the dmg bonus from berserk even if fully upgraded because you are bound to zero out your mana w/ insane attack speed anyways. I also didn't count blood frenzy, sacrificial frenzy, and bravery in my computations as the values for those constantly change in battle and my feeble brain can't handle the math involved. hehehe.
#14
Posté 09 août 2011 - 10:55
ripstrawberry
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ugh... forgot to press the enter key properly. my apologies for the wall of text.
#15
Posté 09 août 2011 - 02:26
Relix28
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ripstrawberry wrote...
I think it's a hassle to have 3 different armor setups. I already find having 2 too much.
This is one of the biggest drawbacks with elemental builds for me. It's annoying enough to switch between different weapons, but constantly switching between 4 pieces of armor, 4 different accessories AND weapons just to slightly improve your damage output is a no-go for me. And a whole lot of different elemtal immunites from enemies don't help either. I tend to switch between elemental weapons depending on immunities and weaknesses, but I leave the armor and accessories alone, until I find something better to replace it.
I understand going pure elemetal from the min-max perspective, for doing tests, experiments and speed runs for example. But from a simpe perspective of "just enjoying the game", it doesn't fly. Spending crap loads of time in the inventory just to slightly boost your damage, is just not worth it, nor is it fun for me. That's just my opinion of course. Now, if there was a function to instantly switch between different armor, accessories and weapons, that would be a whole different matter.
Modifié par Relix28, 09 août 2011 - 02:27 .
#16
Posté 09 août 2011 - 02:47
ripstrawberry
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"This is one of the biggest drawbacks with elemental builds for me. It's annoying enough to switch between different weapons, but constantly switching between 4 pieces of armor, 4 different accessories AND weapons just to slightly improve your damage output is a no-go for me. And a whole lot of different elemtal immunites from enemies don't help either. I tend to switch between elemental weapons depending on immunities and weaknesses, but I leave the armor and accessories alone, until I find something better to replace it."
I hear you. That's why I just focus on one elemental set up then have a physical setup for enemies immune to my primary weapon (usually the hawke's key now that I have the DLC). Like you I also get lazy now to switch the armor and accessories so I generally just switch between 2 weapons sets per character build. Less clutter in the inventory and less time spent pausing the game as well. I generally have this setup for my 5 builds:
archer: hood's message to the king/hawke's key
DW: beraht's revenge and the low blade/jarvia's shank and the hawke's key
WS: edge of nigh/hawke's key
2H: bloom/hawke's key
mage: malcolm's honor/hawke's key
"I understand going pure elemetal from the min-max perspective, for doing tests, experiments and speed runs for example. But from a simpe perspective of "just enjoying the game", it doesn't fly. Spending crap loads of time in the inventory just to slightly boost your damage, is just not worth it, nor is it fun for me. That's just my opinion of course. Now, if there was a function to instantly switch between different armor, accessories and weapons, that would be a whole different matter. "
I wish we had the weapon swap button from DAo patched into this game. That couldn't be too hard.
I hear you. That's why I just focus on one elemental set up then have a physical setup for enemies immune to my primary weapon (usually the hawke's key now that I have the DLC). Like you I also get lazy now to switch the armor and accessories so I generally just switch between 2 weapons sets per character build. Less clutter in the inventory and less time spent pausing the game as well. I generally have this setup for my 5 builds:
archer: hood's message to the king/hawke's key
DW: beraht's revenge and the low blade/jarvia's shank and the hawke's key
WS: edge of nigh/hawke's key
2H: bloom/hawke's key
mage: malcolm's honor/hawke's key
"I understand going pure elemetal from the min-max perspective, for doing tests, experiments and speed runs for example. But from a simpe perspective of "just enjoying the game", it doesn't fly. Spending crap loads of time in the inventory just to slightly boost your damage, is just not worth it, nor is it fun for me. That's just my opinion of course. Now, if there was a function to instantly switch between different armor, accessories and weapons, that would be a whole different matter. "
I wish we had the weapon swap button from DAo patched into this game. That couldn't be too hard.
#17
Posté 09 août 2011 - 03:04
SuicidalBaby
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The weapon swap removal is based solely on Laidlaw's infinite wisdom.....
"Weapon Swap? Who would need a thing like that in a game with immunites.... poppycock! Away with it!"
Yeah, the The Fallen Star: thing is, it affects your xp gains when not in the group as well, so that's where I leave it.
I prefer to have more damage/bm conversion in its place.
The belt really isn't a factor for anything, save the suggested consitution increase.
new tables added to bm comp:
Only Blood Magic conversion, no Blood Lust or items:
2:1 Health to Mana Ratio = 20 hp average per cast
Graviitc Ring - 30 mana - 15 Health
Pull of the Abyss - 30 mana - 15 Health
Tempest - 50 mana - 25 Health
Firestorm - 60 mana - 30 Health
Winter's Grasp - 20 mana - 10 Health
Cone of Cold - 30 mana - 15 Health
Hemmorage - 60 mana - 30 Health
=140 health per casting cycle
suggest +20-28 constitution
Only Ability conversion, no items:
3:1 Health to Mana Ratio = 13.43 hp average per cast
Graviitc Ring - 30 mana - 10 Health
Pull of the Abyss - 30 mana - 10 Health
Tempest - 50 mana - 17 Health
Firestorm - 60 mana - 20 Health
Winter's Grasp - 20 mana - 7 Health
Cone of Cold - 30 mana - 10 Health
Hemmorage - 60 mana - 20 Health
=94 health per casting cycle
suggest + 19 constitution
original tables :
4 piece conversion items:
4:1 Health to Mana Ratio = 9.86 hp average per cast
Graviitc Ring - 30 mana - 8 health
Pull of the Abyss - 30 mana - 8 health
Tempest - 50 mana - 13 health
Firestorm - 60 mana - 15 health
Winter's Grasp - 20 mana - 5 health
Cone of Cold - 30 mana - 8 health
Hemmorage - 60 mana - 15 health
=72 health per casting cycle
suggest +14 constitution
6 piece conversion items:
4.5:1 = 9.4 health average per cast
Graviitc Ring - 30 mana - 7 health
Pull of the Abyss - 30 mana - 7 health
Tempest - 50 mana - 12 health
Firestorm - 60 mana - 14 health
Winter's Grasp - 20 mana - 5 health
Cone of Cold - 30 mana - 7 health
Hemmorage - 60 mana - 14 health
=66 health per casting cycle
suggest + 13 constitution
8 piece conversion
5:1 = 8 health average per cast
Graviitc Ring - 30 mana - 6 health
Pull of the Abyss - 30 mana - 6 health
Tempest - 50 mana - 10 health
Firestorm - 60 mana - 12 health
Winter's Grasp - 20 mana - 4 health
Cone of Cold - 30 mana - 6 health
Hemmorage - 60 mana - 12 health
=56 health per casting cycle
suggest +11 constitution
"Weapon Swap? Who would need a thing like that in a game with immunites.... poppycock! Away with it!"
Yeah, the The Fallen Star: thing is, it affects your xp gains when not in the group as well, so that's where I leave it.
I prefer to have more damage/bm conversion in its place.
The belt really isn't a factor for anything, save the suggested consitution increase.
new tables added to bm comp:
Only Blood Magic conversion, no Blood Lust or items:
2:1 Health to Mana Ratio = 20 hp average per cast
Graviitc Ring - 30 mana - 15 Health
Pull of the Abyss - 30 mana - 15 Health
Tempest - 50 mana - 25 Health
Firestorm - 60 mana - 30 Health
Winter's Grasp - 20 mana - 10 Health
Cone of Cold - 30 mana - 15 Health
Hemmorage - 60 mana - 30 Health
=140 health per casting cycle
suggest +20-28 constitution
Only Ability conversion, no items:
3:1 Health to Mana Ratio = 13.43 hp average per cast
Graviitc Ring - 30 mana - 10 Health
Pull of the Abyss - 30 mana - 10 Health
Tempest - 50 mana - 17 Health
Firestorm - 60 mana - 20 Health
Winter's Grasp - 20 mana - 7 Health
Cone of Cold - 30 mana - 10 Health
Hemmorage - 60 mana - 20 Health
=94 health per casting cycle
suggest + 19 constitution
original tables :
4 piece conversion items:
4:1 Health to Mana Ratio = 9.86 hp average per cast
Graviitc Ring - 30 mana - 8 health
Pull of the Abyss - 30 mana - 8 health
Tempest - 50 mana - 13 health
Firestorm - 60 mana - 15 health
Winter's Grasp - 20 mana - 5 health
Cone of Cold - 30 mana - 8 health
Hemmorage - 60 mana - 15 health
=72 health per casting cycle
suggest +14 constitution
6 piece conversion items:
4.5:1 = 9.4 health average per cast
Graviitc Ring - 30 mana - 7 health
Pull of the Abyss - 30 mana - 7 health
Tempest - 50 mana - 12 health
Firestorm - 60 mana - 14 health
Winter's Grasp - 20 mana - 5 health
Cone of Cold - 30 mana - 7 health
Hemmorage - 60 mana - 14 health
=66 health per casting cycle
suggest + 13 constitution
8 piece conversion
5:1 = 8 health average per cast
Graviitc Ring - 30 mana - 6 health
Pull of the Abyss - 30 mana - 6 health
Tempest - 50 mana - 10 health
Firestorm - 60 mana - 12 health
Winter's Grasp - 20 mana - 4 health
Cone of Cold - 30 mana - 6 health
Hemmorage - 60 mana - 12 health
=56 health per casting cycle
suggest +11 constitution
Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 09 août 2011 - 03:49 .
#18
Posté 09 août 2011 - 03:47
ripstrawberry
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^
Thanks! That's very helpful. Now to mull over whether I want more casting power or more crit%. Hmm...
Thanks! That's very helpful. Now to mull over whether I want more casting power or more crit%. Hmm...
#19
Posté 09 août 2011 - 03:56
SuicidalBaby
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Another thing to note is that the varied levels between 3:1 - 4:1, i.e. 3.5, don't work well enough to warrant attention. You have to remember that if the conversion comes up short, even a little, it costs another health point to get the mana needed for the spell. The result is wasted mana and efficiency. At that point you begin looking for the common denominator.
@ 3:1 - everything fits well because 3 is a prime.
@ 4:1 - everything fits well because the average mana cost is 40
My suggested ratio is 4:1 atm. There are enough items that fit the structure and carry some form of damage increase.
It doesn't hurt that most of the new items carry +attributes. Mage armor still sucks tho...
@ 3:1 - everything fits well because 3 is a prime.
@ 4:1 - everything fits well because the average mana cost is 40
My suggested ratio is 4:1 atm. There are enough items that fit the structure and carry some form of damage increase.
It doesn't hurt that most of the new items carry +attributes. Mage armor still sucks tho...
Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 09 août 2011 - 04:03 .
#20
Posté 09 août 2011 - 04:23
ripstrawberry
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So which 4 BM items do you suggest (more useful) should I equip to get the 4:1 ratio? Are there any other bugged BM conversion items like the ring of transitional thought(?)? Thanks for the useful info!
So which 4 BM items do you suggest (more useful) should I equip to get the 4:1 ratio? Are there any other bugged BM conversion items like the ring of transitional thought(?)? Thanks for the useful info!
#21
Posté 09 août 2011 - 05:18
Aradace
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"best" is a very subjective term in terms of jewelry. Personally, I only use the +X to all attributes jewelry (and armor when applicable) because Im a stat junkie. My mages always have 100 magic by the end of the game (Before Legacy) a 40+ Wisdom and a 30 constitution (I only have to put literally 1 or 2 points into Con because the jewelry, gear, and SH passive take care of the rest.)
My Rogues, like my mages, always end up with a 100 Dex (again, before Legacy is applied) a 35+ Cunning and a 30 Con. I dont even bother with Warrior anymore because, well, for lack of a better way of putting it, they seemed to have been...errr...Casturated since the last patch (the one before Legacy) and dont quite stand up to my "expectations" anymore. So, I just bypass the class entirely now like I did in my latter playthroughs of Origins.
Which, I still manage 5 playthroughs each time for new DLC (or will manage anyway seeing as how Legacy is all we have atm lol) because I scrap each character and start anew once Ive played through the DLC once. 1 mage, and 4 Rogues. 2 of which are "party based" and 2 of which are "soloers". Sorry, that was a bit OT lol. But serioiusly though, "best" really is subjective because it all really depends on the kind of build you want and your particular playstyle so as you can guess, there are probably going to be alot of different "opinions" as to what is best and why.
My Rogues, like my mages, always end up with a 100 Dex (again, before Legacy is applied) a 35+ Cunning and a 30 Con. I dont even bother with Warrior anymore because, well, for lack of a better way of putting it, they seemed to have been...errr...Casturated since the last patch (the one before Legacy) and dont quite stand up to my "expectations" anymore. So, I just bypass the class entirely now like I did in my latter playthroughs of Origins.
Which, I still manage 5 playthroughs each time for new DLC (or will manage anyway seeing as how Legacy is all we have atm lol) because I scrap each character and start anew once Ive played through the DLC once. 1 mage, and 4 Rogues. 2 of which are "party based" and 2 of which are "soloers". Sorry, that was a bit OT lol. But serioiusly though, "best" really is subjective because it all really depends on the kind of build you want and your particular playstyle so as you can guess, there are probably going to be alot of different "opinions" as to what is best and why.
#22
Posté 09 août 2011 - 05:20
SuicidalBaby
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No the ring of transitional power is the only bugged conversion item. (still bugged)
I think the Tailisman takes up an important slot, dont use it.
Try to shop for strong random staves with the stat, to save a slot, at the trinket monger in lowtown or the wounded coast merchant (he generates 2 random weapon items, I have gotten rares off him that carry the stat),
I do suggest Cold Blooded in 1.03.
Hands of Fate for sure.
Boots, mage adept, +fire; +stat. not too many good mage boots to put here anyway...
Ring of Ruin till act 3, trade out for the ring from wounded coast. ( i want to say there was another ring in ferelden imports somewhere in act 2/3, but i dont remember for sure.)
I think the Tailisman takes up an important slot, dont use it.
Try to shop for strong random staves with the stat, to save a slot, at the trinket monger in lowtown or the wounded coast merchant (he generates 2 random weapon items, I have gotten rares off him that carry the stat),
I do suggest Cold Blooded in 1.03.
Hands of Fate for sure.
Boots, mage adept, +fire; +stat. not too many good mage boots to put here anyway...
Ring of Ruin till act 3, trade out for the ring from wounded coast. ( i want to say there was another ring in ferelden imports somewhere in act 2/3, but i dont remember for sure.)
Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 09 août 2011 - 05:30 .
#23
Posté 10 août 2011 - 05:59
ripstrawberry
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""best" is a very subjective term in terms of jewelry. Personally, I only use the +X to all attributes jewelry (and armor when applicable) because Im a stat junkie. My mages always have 100 magic by the end of the game (Before Legacy) a 40+ Wisdom and a 30 constitution (I only have to put literally 1 or 2 points into Con because the jewelry, gear, and SH passive take care of the rest.)"
Why bother putting con on your mage if it's not a blood mage or why bother putting will on your mage if it's a blood mage? Those are wasted points. It's better if you go all mag->then con/will or dex (if you want to increase your dmg potential instead of casting power)
"My Rogues, like my mages, always end up with a 100 Dex (again, before Legacy is applied) a 35+ Cunning and a 30 Con. I dont even bother with Warrior anymore because, well, for lack of a better way of putting it, they seemed to have been...errr...Casturated since the last patch (the one before Legacy) and dont quite stand up to my "expectations" anymore. So, I just bypass the class entirely now like I did in my latter playthroughs of Origins."
Yeah the warrior nerf sucks. Why waste points in con for your rogue? You're better off putting those points into cun and taking advantage more of devious harm + dealing more dps.
"I do suggest Cold Blooded in 1.03."
Even if there's no rune slot for primeval lyrium rune/rune of devastation?
"Hands of Fate for sure.
Boots, mage adept, +fire; +stat. not too many good mage boots to put here anyway..."
Yeah mage gloves are crap anyways. The new boots and hood from the mage item pack though provides alotta hp and a lot of elemental bonuses.
"Ring of Ruin till act 3, trade out for the ring from wounded coast. ( i want to say there was another ring in ferelden imports somewhere in act 2/3, but i dont remember for sure.)"
Yeah ring of ruin seems like a good candidate as well. Not much +hp items on rings except fallen star.
Why bother putting con on your mage if it's not a blood mage or why bother putting will on your mage if it's a blood mage? Those are wasted points. It's better if you go all mag->then con/will or dex (if you want to increase your dmg potential instead of casting power)
"My Rogues, like my mages, always end up with a 100 Dex (again, before Legacy is applied) a 35+ Cunning and a 30 Con. I dont even bother with Warrior anymore because, well, for lack of a better way of putting it, they seemed to have been...errr...Casturated since the last patch (the one before Legacy) and dont quite stand up to my "expectations" anymore. So, I just bypass the class entirely now like I did in my latter playthroughs of Origins."
Yeah the warrior nerf sucks. Why waste points in con for your rogue? You're better off putting those points into cun and taking advantage more of devious harm + dealing more dps.
"I do suggest Cold Blooded in 1.03."
Even if there's no rune slot for primeval lyrium rune/rune of devastation?
"Hands of Fate for sure.
Boots, mage adept, +fire; +stat. not too many good mage boots to put here anyway..."
Yeah mage gloves are crap anyways. The new boots and hood from the mage item pack though provides alotta hp and a lot of elemental bonuses.
"Ring of Ruin till act 3, trade out for the ring from wounded coast. ( i want to say there was another ring in ferelden imports somewhere in act 2/3, but i dont remember for sure.)"
Yeah ring of ruin seems like a good candidate as well. Not much +hp items on rings except fallen star.
#24
Posté 10 août 2011 - 06:10
SuicidalBaby
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"I do suggest Cold Blooded in 1.03."
Even if there's no rune slot for primeval lyrium rune/rune of devastation?
yes, as cold is still the dominate element throughout the game. you add in all the +gear from dlc, its stupid damage. What really makes it is the 40 stam, on top of all the other bonuses, your mana dump spells at the start of combat just saved you x amount of health. basicly improving your overall casting duration in BM. The effective gains of having that and the 4th slot not be the talisman or another ring is well worth the coin. Besides, you're running 3 mages in late game anyway.
Even if there's no rune slot for primeval lyrium rune/rune of devastation?
yes, as cold is still the dominate element throughout the game. you add in all the +gear from dlc, its stupid damage. What really makes it is the 40 stam, on top of all the other bonuses, your mana dump spells at the start of combat just saved you x amount of health. basicly improving your overall casting duration in BM. The effective gains of having that and the 4th slot not be the talisman or another ring is well worth the coin. Besides, you're running 3 mages in late game anyway.
#25
Posté 10 août 2011 - 09:46
Aradace
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@Rip - Because I prefer versatility over raw power. I prefer a build that is not only pretty good at dealing damage, but surviving it as well. As for the mage build question, once again, for versatility. The build is actually the complete opposite when I build a Blood Mage. Everything into Con and nothing in Will. But, I usually dont play Blood Mage because even with One Foot In's "fix", Blood Mage still pretty much blows IMO. (Elemental Mage ftw)
I dont build "savants". Savants go balls to the wall in one particular area and then end up being very poor in others. Im not very fond of the "Glass Cannon" builds. Also, remember, I tend to do solo runs on my rogues as well so some Con is going to help you to survive in the long run lol. And by Solo run, I mean a full on, no one else in the party but Hawke solo run. Im almost done with my first of two "party" rogue builds and about to start on the first of two solo rogue builds. Funnest part this time around it going to be soloing Malvernus. I pretty much mopped the floor with him in a party, and already have a strategy mapped out that Im about %90 sure will allow me to solo him just as easily. But that's OT
.
But, that's just me. Versatility is my particular playstyle. A strait up "savant" style build admittedly has their charms, but at the same time, I just cant stand not being able to survive a hit.
I dont build "savants". Savants go balls to the wall in one particular area and then end up being very poor in others. Im not very fond of the "Glass Cannon" builds. Also, remember, I tend to do solo runs on my rogues as well so some Con is going to help you to survive in the long run lol. And by Solo run, I mean a full on, no one else in the party but Hawke solo run. Im almost done with my first of two "party" rogue builds and about to start on the first of two solo rogue builds. Funnest part this time around it going to be soloing Malvernus. I pretty much mopped the floor with him in a party, and already have a strategy mapped out that Im about %90 sure will allow me to solo him just as easily. But that's OT
.But, that's just me. Versatility is my particular playstyle. A strait up "savant" style build admittedly has their charms, but at the same time, I just cant stand not being able to survive a hit.
Modifié par Aradace, 10 août 2011 - 09:48 .
