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[Han Shot First]

Shepard being exposed to Object Rho for an extended period cannot be good. This is an artificact that indoctrinated anyone who was exposed to it for a prolonged period, and Shepard spent two days in proximity to it after being knocked by it.

That whole cutscene had an ominous feel to it, as if there were going to be greater repurcussions beyond Shepard just being unconcious.

Shepard destroying the relay does not prove he's not been indoctrinated. Indoctrination only slowly manifests itself, otherwise the subject is rendered mindless and useless.

[marshalleck]

Han Shot First wrote...

Shepard being exposed to Object Rho for an extended period cannot be good. This is an artificact that indoctrinated anyone who was exposed to it for a prolonged period, and Shepard spent two days in proximity to it after being knocked by it.

That whole cutscene had an ominous feel to it, as if there were going to be greater repurcussions beyond Shepard just being unconcious.

Shepard destroying the relay does not prove he's not been indoctrinated. Indoctrination only slowly manifests itself, otherwise the subject is rendered mindless and useless.

Shepard does have Reaper tech. If not, I find it hard to believe that Miranda would have been able to put him back together, since the other species which have had access to advanced tech for thousands of years seem to show no indication they've developed a cure for death. And I don't think the glowing scars are perfectly normal, you know? 

So, Reaper-tech based implants + Object Rho = bad combination. Grayson was converted to an avatar with the use of nanites, presumably as was Saren. If Object Rho has nanites, they could have infected Shepard and be working to 'activate' his implants, or alter them. Miranda basically did much of the work for them already, really.

The Shepard vs. Cerberus story arc could span the duration of the game and feature Shepard's slow descent into an indoctrination crisis. One which he would eventually find some way to overcome, because he's the hero. Of course. 

[robarcool]

marshalleck wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Shepard being exposed to Object Rho for an extended period cannot be good. This is an artificact that indoctrinated anyone who was exposed to it for a prolonged period, and Shepard spent two days in proximity to it after being knocked by it.

That whole cutscene had an ominous feel to it, as if there were going to be greater repurcussions beyond Shepard just being unconcious.

Shepard destroying the relay does not prove he's not been indoctrinated. Indoctrination only slowly manifests itself, otherwise the subject is rendered mindless and useless.

Shepard does have Reaper tech. If not, I find it hard to believe that Miranda would have been able to put him back together, since the other species which have had access to advanced tech for thousands of years seem to show no indication they've developed a cure for death. And I don't think the glowing scars are perfectly normal, you know? 

So, Reaper-tech based implants + Object Rho = bad combination. Grayson was converted to an avatar with the use of nanites, presumably as was Saren. If Object Rho has nanites, they could have infected Shepard and be working to 'activate' his implants, or alter them. Miranda basically did much of the work for them already, really.

The Shepard vs. Cerberus story arc could span the duration of the game and feature Shepard's slow descent into an indoctrination crisis. One which he would eventually find some way to overcome, because he's the hero. Of course. 

You do realize that bringing Shepard back took 4 billion credits. So maybe other speceis gave up before they could do this.

[Ausstig]

I don't know, I think it would be cool if the final boss battle of the game is Shepard. the player assumes direct control of some squdies and has to kill Shepard. Then the final decision of the game is whether or not to reveal to the public the truth about Shepard; destroying his legacy but it is the truth or cover the whole thing up and protect his legacy, maybe even a few murders.

Just a thought, it would an epic conclusion to Shepards' story. IMO

[marshalleck]

robarcool wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Shepard being exposed to Object Rho for an extended period cannot be good. This is an artificact that indoctrinated anyone who was exposed to it for a prolonged period, and Shepard spent two days in proximity to it after being knocked by it.

That whole cutscene had an ominous feel to it, as if there were going to be greater repurcussions beyond Shepard just being unconcious.

Shepard destroying the relay does not prove he's not been indoctrinated. Indoctrination only slowly manifests itself, otherwise the subject is rendered mindless and useless.

Shepard does have Reaper tech. If not, I find it hard to believe that Miranda would have been able to put him back together, since the other species which have had access to advanced tech for thousands of years seem to show no indication they've developed a cure for death. And I don't think the glowing scars are perfectly normal, you know? 

So, Reaper-tech based implants + Object Rho = bad combination. Grayson was converted to an avatar with the use of nanites, presumably as was Saren. If Object Rho has nanites, they could have infected Shepard and be working to 'activate' his implants, or alter them. Miranda basically did much of the work for them already, really.

The Shepard vs. Cerberus story arc could span the duration of the game and feature Shepard's slow descent into an indoctrination crisis. One which he would eventually find some way to overcome, because he's the hero. Of course. 

You do realize that bringing Shepard back took 4 billion credits. So maybe other speceis gave up before they could do this.

Oh whatever. That's not believable in the slightest. If medical researchers thought bringing someone back from the dead was actually possible, someone would have done it. Other groups would be working on it. It would be the Manhattan Project of medical research, and much more than 4 billion credits would be spent on obtaining it. You can't really think Cerberus, with its handful of corporate fronts and industry magnate donors is the only group in the entire galaxy that could bankroll a project like this? 4 billion credits is a drop in the bucket of the galactic economy.

For Miranda to be the only person attempting it, she must have had unique insight and advantage on all the thousands or millions of other medical researchers in the galaxy...now what could that edge possibly have been? Hmm, I wonder. The books and the game pretty much spell it out for you: Reaper technology.

Modifié par marshalleck, 07 août 2011 - 07:32 .

[Vexed Forest]

I could maybe see a mission where the Reapers try to indoctrinate Shepard but he resists and a side affect is he hallucinates and thinks some alliance soldiers are husks. I don't really see bioware making Shepard fully indoctrinated. It just doesn't seem like something they would do.

[Han Shot First]

marshalleck wrote...

Shepard does have Reaper tech. If not, I find it hard to believe that Miranda would have been able to put him back together, since the other species which have had access to advanced tech for thousands of years seem to show no indication they've developed a cure for death. And I don't think the glowing scars are perfectly normal, you know? 

So, Reaper-tech based implants + Object Rho = bad combination. Grayson was converted to an avatar with the use of nanites, presumably as was Saren. If Object Rho has nanites, they could have infected Shepard and be working to 'activate' his implants, or alter them. Miranda basically did much of the work for them already, really.

The Shepard vs. Cerberus story arc could span the duration of the game and feature Shepard's slow descent into an indoctrination crisis. One which he would eventually find some way to overcome, because he's the hero. Of course. 

Good point about the nanites.

If the Shep indoctrination rumors do prove to be true, it casts that first teaser trailer in a whole different light. When Shepard walks away dramatically after viewing the destruction of Earth from the viewport, was that determination to stop it, or was he pleased that everything was proceeding according to the Reapers' plan?

We do know that there apparently is a twist in the story of "I am your father" proportions, and Shepard basically being Saren 2.0 for part of Mass Effect 3 would fit that bill.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 07 août 2011 - 07:37 .

[SandTrout]

@Marshalleck

While the other species have had access to the advanced technology longer than Humans have, Humanity has been described as being exceptionally driven in nearly every field. Note that we were at least a match, ship-for-ship and soldier-for-soldier to the Turians during the FCW.

Part of this is understood to be the nature of the Prothean cache on Mars, which was apparently not destroyed by the Reapers. However, once we had access to alien technology available through trade, we have made many notable advances, especially in the medical field. Note that, if I understand correctly, Medi-gel is a human invention and among the most useful medical advances in the galaxy.

I would not be surprised that the Lazarus Project involved primarily human and alien technology since Miranda would certainly be willing to access advances achieved by other species in order to achieve her goal. All it would take is some relatively minor advances combined with using existing technology in new and unproven ways to achieve the desired goal.

I think that making Lazarus dependent on Reaper technology is not giving adequate credit to human ingenuity, especially when we are not certain of Shepard's condition upon retrieval.

[marshalleck]

But we already know the Lazarus cell had access to Reaper tech: EDI is proof positive of this.

They study how Reapers reanimate or reverse engineer organic beings when they turn them into husks, adapt the procedures for less extensive physical modification (only for the purpose of reconstruction), and voila! There's your Shepard technomagical resurrection.

And because there are dumb people out there who will no doubt think I just called Shepard a husk: I did not just call Shepard a husk. Figure it out.

Modifié par marshalleck, 07 août 2011 - 07:41 .

[Han Shot First]

I think that making Lazarus dependent on Reaper technology is not giving adequate credit to human ingenuity, especially when we are not certain of Shepard's condition upon retrieval.

Considering both Cerberus' general history with crackpot experiments and their history of using Reaper tech in creating EDI and the Normandy SR2 drive core, and in unleashing Reaper nanites on Grayson, I think it is probable that some Reaper tech found it's way into Shepard.

It would be more suprising if Cerberus didn't use some Reaper tech during the Lazarus project, than if they did.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 07 août 2011 - 07:44 .

[KevShep]

I have posted this before but I will post it again. I am not saying that Shepard is indoctrinated( I dont think that he is ) but this might be connected. Look at Sheps scars... Then look at the other pic....notice anything?

[Peridian]

marshalleck wrote...
Oh whatever. That's not believable in the slightest. If medical researchers thought bringing someone back from the dead was actually possible, someone would have done it. Other groups would be working on it. It would be the Manhattan Project of medical research, and much more than 4 billion credits would be spent on obtaining it. You can't really think Cerberus, with its handful of corporate fronts and industry magnate donors is the only group in the entire galaxy that could bankroll a project like this? 4 billion credits is a drop in the bucket of the galactic economy.

For Miranda to be the only person attempting it, she must have had unique insight and advantage on all the thousands or millions of other medical researchers in the galaxy...now what could that edge possibly have been? Hmm, I wonder. The books and the game pretty much spell it out for you: Reaper technology.

It's possible that other species may have tried, possibly even succeeded, as well but just haven't advertised it all over the galaxy. While Miranda does have that genius thing going on, I have a hard time believing the Salarian STG wouldn't have people like her in abundance. Reaper tech would be a good solution, though it may just be a human thing. No two species are the same, so it may well be that the entire process has a much higher percentage of succes (even if that would still be below favorable odds) with humans than with any other species. And would any of the non-human races waste billions of credits just to see if it's possible to resurrect a human being? They might not even consider it due to the humans relatively short life span.

[marshalleck]

That FemShep has a jawline that puts Bruce Campbell to shame. But KevShep is onto something; the glowing scars aren't normal, and I don't think they're entirely "artistic license." They're a hint.

Modifié par marshalleck, 07 août 2011 - 07:46 .

[SandTrout]

Ok, I may have missed something, but was it ever confirmed that the SR-2 project was directly linked to Lazarus?

As I understood the course of events, Lazarus and SR-2 were parallel, but separate projects. Note that it was Joker who introduced you to the new Normandy, and Miranda was could have been briefed by TIM while the new paint-job was being applied. Considering that Miranda would actually trust whatever TIM told/sent her, it would make sense that she would be able to make herself intimately familiar with the SR2 very quickly.

Minuteman station is probably under the nominal control of a Cerberus front, and is likely a staging/fallback point for a number of cells so that resources may be shared when necessary. Considering that the only two survivors of the Lazarus cell were people that TIM could trust explicitly not to leak information, it would make sense for him to allow the reveal and merger of the Lazarus and SR-2 cells.

[Praetor Knight]

marshalleck wrote...

That FemShep has a jawline that puts Bruce Campbell to shame.

 
Nice catch!

[marshalleck]

It's said somewhere in game (I forget where) that SR-2 construction, and EDI, were both funded as a component of Lazarus cell even though they had separate physical facilities from the medical station Shepard was at.

Modifié par marshalleck, 07 août 2011 - 07:55 .

[SandTrout]

It's possible that Reaper tech may have been involved in Shepard's revival, but I am not buying it as a confirmed fact yet. I would categorize it as a 'reasonable conclusion'.

I personally think that if Reaper tech was involved in Lazarus, that it played more of a conceptual basis, similar to how the Thanix was not a direct copy of Sovereign's weapons so much as an attempt to achieve the functional concept.

[marshalleck]

SandTrout wrote...

I personally think that if Reaper tech was involved in Lazarus, that it played more of a conceptual basis, similar to how the Thanix was not a direct copy of Sovereign's weapons so much as an attempt to achieve the functional concept.

Which is fine.  It's still providing groundwork for the Reaper nanites from Object Rho to get started on. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 07 août 2011 - 08:01 .

[robarcool]

I am not denying your theory, but what you are saying is that my point is totally invalid. Fine. You can think that way. I meant to say that people couldn't divert so much resources to conquering death because perhaps so strong a need might not be felt in the past. That's all.

[marshalleck]

People are power-hungry. Aliens in ME are just humans in funny looking suits; the first game goes out of its way to tell you this. Remember Kaidan's comment about them being saints and sinners just like the rest of us?

What greater power is there than conquering death? I just cannot accept that if any individuals or groups in ME thought it even a remote possibility with the right application of ingenuity and technology, that they would just turn it down. Especially on financial grounds. Bringing people back from the dead would be the most significant advance ever for all of the biological and medical sciences. They would be dedicated to pursuing it, no matter the cost.

Modifié par marshalleck, 07 août 2011 - 08:07 .

[SandTrout]

@Mashalleck,

Perhaps they were pursuing it. Lazarus may have piggybacked of any number of other medical advances from other species. Those kinds advances are rarely independent of external contribution. Lazarus has the benefit of a viable subject, unlimited budget, and singular goal. Most other research would be required to provide marketable breakthroughs periodically, work largely on theoretical premise or lab-animals, and work within their applied budget.

Also, death is likely only conqured under relatively specific circumstances (death by asphyxiation and vacuum exposure). The individual technologies, with few exceptions, were likely adapted from existing surgical implants that likely are able to bring someone back from clinical death within a certain period of time.

Shepard was only different b/c of the extent of damage and amount of time after the cease in heart function involved. He/she only remained viable because his/her body was placed into stasis reasonably quickly, and other environmental factors before stasis was applied were conductive in the overall preservation of Shepard's body.

For example, Lazarus would likely not be able to revive Sidonus after Garrus's headshot due to the nature of the damage done to the brain.

[Savber100]

SandTrout wrote...

 
Shepard was only different b/c of the extent of damage and amount of time after the cease in heart function involved. He/she only remained viable because his/her body was placed into stasis reasonably quickly, and other environmental factors before stasis was applied were conductive in the overall preservation of Shepard's body.

For example, Lazarus would likely not be able to revive Sidonus after Garrus's headshot due to the nature of the damage done to the brain.

Wrong. In Redemption, it told us that it took nearly a month to find PIECES of Shepards' remains. The body was so shattered that you couldn't tell if it was male or female. Shepard's body burned up and then HIT the ground afterwards. That's pretty much mean this isn't your typical body perserved and resurrected scenario. Miranda and her team had to piece together the remnants of Shepard's body and I seriously doubt that any alien race could have the tech to do that besides our beloved Reapers. 

So if anything, the Lazurus Project didn't really have the most ideal subject. 

Modifié par Savber100, 07 août 2011 - 08:42 .

[marshalleck]

SandTrout wrote...

Also, death is likely only conqured under relatively specific circumstances (death by asphyxiation and vacuum exposure).

Which surely can't be a rare cause of death for beings which routinely travel, work, or live in space.

Modifié par marshalleck, 07 août 2011 - 08:43 .

[SandTrout]

marshalleck wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

Also, death is likely only conqured under relatively specific circumstances (death by asphyxiation and vacuum exposure).

Which surely can't be a rare cause of death for beings which routinely travel, work, or live in space.

Most of the time, those victims would be retrieved either very quickly or not at all, though.

[SandTrout]

Savber100 wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

 
Shepard was only different b/c of the extent of damage and amount of time after the cease in heart function involved. He/she only remained viable because his/her body was placed into stasis reasonably quickly, and other environmental factors before stasis was applied were conductive in the overall preservation of Shepard's body.

For example, Lazarus would likely not be able to revive Sidonus after Garrus's headshot due to the nature of the damage done to the brain.

Wrong. In Redemption, it told us that it took nearly a month to find PIECES of Shepards' remains. The body was so shattered that you couldn't tell if it was male or female. Shepard's body burned up and then HIT the ground afterwards. That's pretty much mean this isn't your typical body perserved and resurrected scenario. Miranda and her team had to piece together the remnants of Shepard's body and I seriously doubt that any alien race could have the tech to do that besides our beloved Reapers. 

So if anything, the Lazurus Project didn't really have the most ideal subject.

I may just be tired, but I did not see anything you wrote that contradicts anything that I did. I acknowledge that Lazarus was a major achievement due to the time of death involved. I was just pointing out that most of the major tech involved, with replacement implants being the most vital, IMO, probably already existed.