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[WhiteKnyght]

I've heard so many times how the Chantry wants to prevent another Imperium from rising. Well from what I've seen and heard about Orlais, the origin place of the Chantry and its center of power, they sound just like Tevinter in its Pre-Andraste days.

Orlais has been at war with lots of countries and conquered many places. Some even want to reconquer Ferelden in DAII. Just like how Tevinter conquered most of Thedas during its glory days.

In Orlais, slavery is outlawed yet the nobility still practices it.

The Orlesian nobility are ruled by their vices and no different from the Magisters. Vanity, envy, greed. But at least the Tevinters are honest about themselves instead of hiding behind the Chantry and a veil of sanctimony.


The only difference is that Orlesians don't use magic to get what they want. But arguably they are just as bad. It's ironic. The Orlesian Empire and their Chantry claim to want to prevent the rise of another Tevinter but in their efforts, prejudices, and hypocrisies they have become it themselves.

[Sepewrath]

There not like Tevinter, there smart enough to use religion aka faith as the basis of the power, and established that faith across the entire continent. Makes their reach far and wide, I have a hard time believing that Orlais and the Chantry, even though their suppose to be two separate entities, don't operate in tandem.

[Gabey5]

agreed, they use religion and armies as a tool rather than magic

[dragonflight288]

If you read in the Codex entires why the dragon age was named the dragon age, it was because the Divine was about to name it the Sun Age, after Orlais (and the Chantry's) symbol of international expansion. When suddenly, a large dragon emerged from the mountains. The Divine swiftly named the coming age 'Dragon'. It is rumored that she chose this because the dragon was actually the crest of the Orlesian lord ruling Fereldan at the time. Only the Fereldans under Loghain defeated the Orlesians at River Dane and the High Dragon left the mountains toward the west, not into Fereldan as originally expected but into Orlais and killed hundreds of people before traveling back to the mountains.

Seems to me like the Chantry and Orlais are too intermittantly linked to be unbiased in their dealings with other countries like Fereldan or Tevinter, or Seheron, or any other land not under orlesian rule and without the dogma of the Chantry.

[WhiteKnyght]

Sepewrath wrote...

They're not like Tevinter, they are smart enough to use religion aka faith as the basis of the power, and established that faith across the entire continent. Makes their reach far and wide, I have a hard time believing that Orlais and the Chantry, even though their suppose to be two separate entities, don't operate in tandem.

Same bs, different methods.

Simple as that. The Tevinters used magic and believed that they were gods, and the Chantry believes itself to be the voice and hand of the Maker and anything they say and do is the Maker's will. And both sides are willing to smite, subjugate, and conquer anything that doesn't agree with them or does something they don't approve of.

I don't really see much difference.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 07 août 2011 - 03:42 .

[TEWR]

http://mlkshk.com/r/1MC


I very much agree. I can't stand Orlais, what with their.... frilly Orlaisness. Seriously, they're just a bunch of tyrants. I even doubt Empress Celene is as noble as she claims, as the codexes say she prefers expansionism.

[dragonflight288]

Corypheus does demand that Hawke and company bow as slaves to him mere moments after waking up after a 2000 year long sleep. He outright expects to be in charge of everything because he's Tevinter.

Now take the Chantry. Before Merrill's final quest or Zevran's in Act 3, if we go to Sundermount the Dalish elves tell us that the Templars came by and told them to convert with badly veiled threats. Pretty much demanded the Dalish Elves to submit to the Maker and the rule of the Chantry.

Then we take the badly documented fall of the Dales (both sides has dirty laundry their hiding, although the Dalish may not be aware of theirs as they seem to rely on the oral tradition), in which where missionaries failed at first, then templars came in second with the cleansing fire the chantry usually provides to non-believers. Death and destruction.

The Chantry and the imperial court in Orlais actually share the sun in their crest!

Doesn't sound all that different from Ancient Tevinter at all. In fact, the only difference is religious fanaticism is the weapon of choice and not magic. Both are equally dangerous. One is just flashier.

[WhiteKnyght]

Keep in mind, I'm not saying all Orlesians are bad. But that at the core of power and influence, its no different than any other nation, even Tevinter. The only difference is how they do it and some are just more different than others. But the BS is still the same.

Antiva is a corrupt land practically controlled by Assassins
Orlais is a corrupt land controlled by religion which dictates the actions of pretty much every other nation in the continent by threat of an Exalted March..
Tevinter is a corrupt land controlled by magic

[Gervaise]

Basically politics is a dirty business no matter what you use to cement your power, be it magic, religion, money or whatever. Each nation has a basis for the power which the ruling class adhere to and which subjugates the rest. In Tevinter the ruling elite are the mages, backed by the Black Chantry (so there is an element of religion in it), in Orlais the nobility regard themselves as elected to ruling through the will of the Maker and thus able to do as they please to the rest of the non elect population (chevaliers have the right to rape peasant girls elven or otherwise and to excute any objectors), in Antiva the merchant princes and their band of assassins control affairs, and with the Qun you are again bound by the state into which you are born or placed by the Qun and are expected to accept it. The dwarves are also bound by tradition and a caste system and accident of birth determines where you fall in it. Apart from Antiva where it is possible to rise through the ranks so long as you are willing to kill, most of the principle powers in Thedas have a rigid class system which maintains the status quo. Even Ferelden is to some extent bound by a traditional class system but moving between classes is possible.
So, yes, there is little difference between Tevinter and Orlais in how power holds sway over the populace. It is just in the majority of Thedas people are under the illusion they are free. They are free to remain a peasant but actually very little control over their lives and are at the whim of the ruling classes - where those rulers are good, kind and fair, they are fortunate. If they are not, then Maker help them (and generally he doesn't).

[EmperorSahlertz]

I don't recall Orlesians sacrificing thousands of slaves, just for their own spells to work...

[Jorina Leto]

Orlais is not a magocracy. Therefore no problems with the Chantry.

Modifié par Jorina Leto, 07 août 2011 - 11:55 .

[Rifneno]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't recall Orlesians sacrificing thousands of slaves, just for their own spells to work...

I do.  It was called "The Dales."

Jorina Leto wrote...

Orlais is not a magocracy. Therefore no problems with the Chantry.

Sarcastic irony I hope?

[Herr Uhl]

Rifneno wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't recall Orlesians sacrificing thousands of slaves, just for their own spells to work...

I do.  It was called "The Dales."

What spell was that?

[Rifneno]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't recall Orlesians sacrificing thousands of slaves, just for their own spells to work...

I do.  It was called "The Dales."

What spell was that?

I heard it's how the Divine always gets her hair exactly how she wants it.

[TEWR]

The point is that Orlais and the Chantry tried to prevent a tyrannical empire from rising again, only to become one themselves. The point is you don't need to be a mage to be a tyrant.

Hell Velanna and pre-merging Anders even point out how tyrannical the Chantry is.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The point is that Orlais and the Chantry tried to prevent a tyrannical empire from rising again, only to become one themselves. The point is you don't need to be a mage to be a tyrant.

Hell Velanna and pre-merging Anders even point out how tyrannical the Chantry is.

And bloodthirsty.  The Chantry shoots first, shoots second, and then if someone wants to ask questions, they shoot them.  They wiped out the Dales because...  well, we don't know for sure but most seems to revolve around "they wouldn't follow our religion."  They considered marching on Orzammar at the end of DAO because ONE dwarf got murdered, illegally.  They were probably going to march on Kirkwall because the mages were pissy about being brutally abused.  They marched on the Imperial Chantry because their head priest lol'd at Orlais' head priest kicking the bucket.  I'm sure if the Qunari weren't totalitarian ****s themselves, they would've gotten marched on anyway.  The Divine very nearly ordered a march on her own cathedral to kill the mages who were peacefully protesting by not lighting candles as ordered (yes, seriously).  To quote Legion, their history is a litany of blood.

[TEWR]

Indeed. I remember all of those.


I'll be pissed if Bioware makes the Fall of the Dales the fault of the elves.

[Herr Uhl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'll be pissed if Bioware makes the Fall of the Dales the fault of the elves.

Why? Because it doesn't fit your preconceptions?

[Rifneno]

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'll be pissed if Bioware makes the Fall of the Dales the fault of the elves.

Why? Because it doesn't fit your preconceptions?

Ironic since the great majority of the Chantry supporters do so because of preconceptions they have about it from the extremely false association with real life religions that are far more peaceful.

[WhiteKnyght]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't recall Orlesians sacrificing thousands of slaves, just for their own spells to work...

The Dalish Elves fought alongside Andraste and helped her overthrow the Imperium. But the Orlesians and their Chantry subjugated them simply because they wouldn't worship their maker.

The Orlesians also allow their Chevaliers to commit any crime they wish on lower class civilians. Theft, rape, murder, etc. And they act like its their right simply for wearing a shiny suit of armor.

[Herr Uhl]

Rifneno wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'll be pissed if Bioware makes the Fall of the Dales the fault of the elves.

Why? Because it doesn't fit your preconceptions?

Ironic since the great majority of the Chantry supporters do so because of preconceptions they have about it from the extremely false association with real life religions that are far more peaceful.

I wouldn't be personally affronted. That you take personal offence if proven that your conjectures about scant material aren't true seems odd.

Edit: And you can't say that many of the ones who dislike it uses the religious wars from the real world as fuel.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 07 août 2011 - 01:56 .

[Wulfram]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'll be pissed if Bioware makes the Fall of the Dales the fault of the elves.

Portraying the Elves as nothing more than passive victims does them a disservice.  The Dales were surely a powerful and vibrant state quite capable of making errors and committing injustices.

The start of the war between Dales and Orlais has been fairly clearly depicted as having faults on both sides - there was an escalation of tension over the Dales' lack of tolerance for Chantry missionaries, eventually some elves sacked a human settlement and Orlais responded by declaring war.

Where the Chantry and Orlais bear responsibility, is turning a victory in a war into a genocide.  Though given the Dalish emphasis on avoiding human contact in order to regain immortality, I wonder if, during the early phase of the war when they were winning territory from Orlais, they didn't engage in their own share of ethnic cleansing.

[DarkCamel]

I disagree. First, the Chantry is not Orlais. Note that Chantry witnessed and remained silent when Cailan challenged Loghain about Orlesian assistance against the Darkspawn. There seems to be no open alliance between the Orlesian empire and the Chantry.

Secondly, both the Chantry and Orlais wish they had a fraction of the power Tevinter had when it was at its pre-Andraste power. The Tevinter's ruled over all of the entire surface of Thedas, leaving monuments everywhere. They sacrificed thousands to power their spells. The Orlesians who ruled over Ferelden were merely brutal, and appeared to have left little trace of their occupation besides bad memories.

The Chantry's power in Dragon Age I and II is shown to be far less than their reach. They talk a good game, but unlike Tevinter, do not have the power to carry it out.

Orlais may be a nasty place, and the Chantry does some pretty nasty things. But the Chantry and Orlais, even together, don't hold a candle to Tevinter and they are not even one in the same.

[Rifneno]

Herr Uhl wrote...

I wouldn't be personally affronted. That you take personal offence if proven that your conjectures about scant material aren't true seems odd.

That you think you can accurately analyze someone's mentality from an occasional written message (very important since tone is lost) is as pretentious as it is absurd odd as well.

Edit: And you can't say that many of the ones who dislike it uses the religious wars from the real world as fuel.

That's why I didn't say it.

Wulfram wrote...

Where the Chantry and Orlais bear responsibility, is turning a victory in a war into a genocide.

An excellent summary of the situation.

I also want to add I'm suspicious about how innocent the ancient elves in the Arlathan days were. They got stomped by Tevinter, and Tevinter's enemies usually get the benefit of the doubt. Sundermount being so... haunted I guess, from both sides "unleashing horrors" however... makes me wonder about the elves of old. Not to say that modern elves deserve to be subjugated in the least.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Rifneno wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't recall Orlesians sacrificing thousands of slaves, just for their own spells to work...

I do.  It was called "The Dales."

Yeah... That doesn't even make sense... Are you saying the Orlesians cast a spell, sacrificing thousands of their peasants lives, to defeat the Dales? Because to my knowledge they won that war the old fashioned way. Superior numbers.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The point is that Orlais and the Chantry tried to prevent a tyrannical empire from rising again, only to become one themselves. The point is you don't need to be a mage to be a tyrant.

Hell Velanna and pre-merging Anders even point out how tyrannical the Chantry is.

The Chantry and Orlais don't give two pots of ****** about tyranny (which any malcontent freak will always be quick to shout anyway...). What they do care about is mage supremacy, and how to make sure it won't ever happen again.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 07 août 2011 - 04:05 .