124 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvianus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

http://mlkshk.com/r/1MC


I very much agree. I can't stand Orlais, what with their.... frilly Orlaisness. Seriously, they're just a bunch of tyrants. I even doubt Empress Celene is as noble as she claims, as the codexes say she prefers expansionism.

That's not very relevant to say that, when the world of Dragon Age is full of Emperors, Kings, dictators that are only concerned about their own interests and those of their kingdom, sometimes to the detriment of the others, rarely that of their people.

There are no good countries and bad countries, only the strong and weak, sometimes with fair cause or not. Tevinter is more specific in the sense that it can be bad as humanly as supernaturally, with the magic. (Blood Magic)

Modifié par Sylvianus, 07 août 2011 - 04:13 .

[naledgeborn]

Not to mention that Chevalier are permitted to rape any low to mid class woman they want. And for a country that's all about singing the chant Orlais sure does have a large number of noble born blood mages. Baroness, Du Pui, ect. Always found that a little suspect. It's a place where privilege is law. And it's why Loghain is alive and kicking darkspawn ass in my canon.

[dragonflight288]

Need I remind anyone that before the Dragon Age was named, Orlais was on the verge of conquering nearly all of Thedas south of Tevinter and the Qunari lands. The Divine was about to name the coming age the "Sun Age" in honor of Orlais's expansion and strength. When a Dragon emerged from the mountains, she swiftly named the coming age the Dragon Age. The codex entry says she most likely did this because the current Orlesian ruler of Feralden had a family crest with a dragon. She was supporting an Orlesian victory.

Only Loghain defeated the Orlesians at River Dane and the High Dragon travelled West instead of East, and killed hundreds of Orlesian citizens.

The Chantry is not unbiased when dealing with nations under its influence. They actually are strong supporters of Orlais. And nearly every country in the world dismisses Fereldan as a ******-hole full of nothing but rabid dogs, and the only reason it's worth anything is because Andraste was born and buried there.

[EmperorSahlertz]

So? How does this relate to Orlais being a new Tevinter?

[Sylvianus]

naledgeborn wrote...

Not to mention that Chevalier are permitted to rape any low to mid class woman they want. And for a country that's all about singing the chant Orlais sure does have a large number of noble born blood mages. Baroness, Du Pui, ect. Always found that a little suspect. It's a place where privilege is law. And it's why Loghain is alive and kicking darkspawn ass in my canon.

I almost always killed  Loghain, even if I love him. Damn it.

But well, I become the king of Ferelden, I must pratice the King's justice, given his betrayal of the kingdom and Cailan to whom he had sworn allegiance, while he almost defeated the kingdom  face to darkspawn with his evil cunning.  He also sold Fereldians citizens (elves) to foreign slavers. Unacceptable.

He also tortured some nobles. Unable to save him in light of all these crimes unforgivable for New king uncompromising like me !

The only time I save Loghain, it's when I play a dwarf ruthless, only involved in the fight against darkspawn as a warden.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 07 août 2011 - 04:53 .

[dragonflight288]

So? How does this relate to Orlais being a new Tevinter?

The Tevinter used magic as justification to conquer and rule the world. Orlais, which holds the seat of power for the Chantry, constantly sought to conquer other countries, and regularly did so. The Chantry preaches that when the Chant of Light is sung from all corners of the world, the Maker will return. There is a history of the Chantry supporting Orlais when conquering other nations.

And since Orlais is the seat of power for the Chantry, anywhere Orlais went, so too did the chantry. It was another form of tyranny. Only the methods and motivations changed. Orlais is another Tevinter because of the Chantry preaching, the Chantry may also be considered a tyrannical new-Tevinter because of it's bloody history regarding preaching and the endorsing of Orlais conquering all the nations.

My only point is that Orlais and the Chantry use each other to gain political and religious power over others, whereas the ancient Tevinter used magic and the Old Gods. Same B.S. Different methods.

[EmperorSahlertz]

How you obtain power and uses it won't ever change. That Orlais is a strong nation, like Tevinter was/is, does NOT make it another Tevinter. In Tevinter any magister could sacrifice a thousand slaves just to enchant his broom to sweep automatically, and no one would look twice at him. Orlais simply is not like taht, hence why it isn't another Tevinter.

That is not to say that Orlais doesn't have its own list of shortcommings and bad sides, but to call it another Tevinter is simply anti-Chantry/Orlais propaganda.

[WhiteKnyght]

Also let's not forget how Divine Justinia uses Leliana as her own covert assassin for situations that would hurt the Chantry's image if brought to light.

And how The Chantry has the Templars use blood magic to track apostates via phylacteries.(David Gaider confirmed in an interview that it IS blood magic.)

[dragonflight288]

One doesn't need spells to traumatize and destroy livelihoods. Chevalier's are given a great deal of liberty with anyone they have their eye on. Nobles use bards in their political games, not caring how many people may be killed by the game. There seems to be a high number of Orlesian nobles who are blood mages (The baroness, Du Pui, can't think of any other nobles beyond Tevinter and Hawke who are also mages) The Empress has very little influence if DA2 King Alistair has anything to say about it (some Orlesians want to retake their lost province and Empress Orlais is hopeful for peace. Doesn't inspire confidence in her ability to command them).

Granted, I'm not defending Tevinter. The abuses are different because the countries have different tools to use.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Also let's not forget how Divine Justinia uses Leliana as her own covert assassin for situations that would hurt the Chantry's image if brought to light.

And how The Chantry has the Templars use blood magic to track apostates via phylacteries.(David Gaider confirmed in an interview that it IS blood magic.)

He confirmed it could be VIEWED as blood magic...

dragonflight288 wrote...

One doesn't need spells to traumatize and destroy livelihoods. Chevalier's are given a great deal of liberty with anyone they have their eye on. Nobles use bards in their political games, not caring how many people may be killed by the game. There seems to be a high number of Orlesian nobles who are blood mages (The baroness, Du Pui, can't think of any other nobles beyond Tevinter and Hawke who are also mages) The Empress has very little influence if DA2 King Alistair has anything to say about it (some Orlesians want to retake their lost province and Empress Orlais is hopeful for peace. Doesn't inspire confidence in her ability to command them).

Granted, I'm not defending Tevinter. The abuses are different because the countries have different tools to use.

Until the day we see the general Orlesian noble (mind you that the two we have met, weren't either in Orlais) slay a undred of his peasants in an effort to empower his own abilities, I will never call Orlais for another Tevinter.
Orlais is an empire, but it is not another Imperium.

[dragonflight288]

Who only work with the chantry to slaughter everyone who disagrees with their religious views.

[TEWR]

saying it can be viewed as blood magic doesn't mean that it isn't blood magic emp. The Chantry chooses to not view it as blood magic, while I'm sure mages (and specifically blood mages) view it as such.

[dragonflight288]

The Joining for the Grey Wardens is also a form of blood magic. But if that wasn't done, the blights wouldn't be stopped and all life would be eradicated.

The Litany of Adralla stops the mind control of blood magic. But the codex entry states that Adralla was a mage from Tevinter who fled for her life because of her/his research into ending blood magic domination. That likely needed blood magic controlling the minds of others as a way to test out the spell.

[andraip]

Yep, the Chantry + Orlais are as bad as the Tevinter Imperium, there just not as honest about it.

For me it's the same if someone is killed by magic or by a blade, dead is dead. I don't know why someone could possibly think that beeing killed with a blade or an arrow is better then beeing killed by a fireball.

[Sylvianus]

Until now Orlais lacks the ability to bury a whole kingdom in darkness like Arlathann.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 07 août 2011 - 05:36 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

saying it can be viewed as blood magic doesn't mean that it isn't blood magic emp. The Chantry chooses to not view it as blood magic, while I'm sure mages (and specifically blood mages) view it as such.

Saying that something can be viewed as such, also means that it isn't neccesarily waht it is viewed as. See how that works? When blood is invovled it will always be a grey area. I believe that blood must be the source of power for the spell to be blood magic, others believe that blood simply has to be involved.

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Joining for the Grey Wardens is also a form of blood magic. But if that wasn't done, the blights wouldn't be stopped and all life would be eradicated.

The Litany of Adralla stops the mind control of blood magic. But the codex entry states that Adralla was a mage from Tevinter who fled for her life because of her/his research into ending blood magic domination. That likely needed blood magic controlling the minds of others as a way to test out the spell.

The joinning ritual is also one of those "it can be viewed as blood magic" rituals. And Adralla can have tested her spell in a myriad different ways. It may have been entirely based on field testing. She may have taken a lucky guess. We will never know.

[Medhia Nox]

Is it really a shock that people in power abuse it?

The Imperium sucks - the Orlesians suck - this sucks, that sucks, everything just sucks sucks.

[Sylvianus]

We know nothing about the ritual of the Wardens, we know nothing about their practice. The only thing we know is that it concerns only the blood to fight the darkspawn. This is pure assumption to say that it's blood magic..

If David Gaider would mean that it is, he would have simply said " it's blood magic. "

Modifié par Sylvianus, 07 août 2011 - 05:51 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Don't bother Sylvianus. They will never cease to try and redeem blood magic by saying stuff like: "Oh but the Grey Wardens couldn't exist without it!" and "But the Chantry uses it themselves" and "I'm totally pulling facts out of my arse, but you better beleive them as gospel!" It is just the way things work in these kind of discussions.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 07 août 2011 - 05:46 .

[Sylvianus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Don't bother Sylvianus. They will never cease to try and redeem blood magic by saying stuff like: "Oh but the Grey Wardens couldn't exist without it!" and "But the Chantry uses it themselves" and "I'm totally pulling facts out of my arse, but you better beleive them as gospel!" It is just the way things work in these kind of discussions.

Therefore, I rarely invest myself in such discussions.

Too passionate to really discern what is said, without all the time take away from their meaning for the sake of his own vision.

[peacemaker]

So Orlais trying to invade and annex territory into the Empire. How is that different from, lets say, Calenhad travelling around Ferelden conquering land so he could make himself king?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Because Orlais is the seat of the Chantry, and therefore the root of all evil in the world. Isn't that obvious?

[TEWR]

On the worship of dragons

Let us suggest, for the moment, that a high dragon is simply an animal. A cunning animal, to be sure, but in possession of no true self-awareness or sentience. There has not, after all, been a single recorded case of a dragon attempting to communicate or performing any act that could not likewise be attributed to a clever beast.

How, then, does one explain the existence of so-called "dragon cults" throughout history?

One dragon cult might be explainable, especially in light of the reverence of the Old Gods in the ancient Tevinter Imperium. In the wake of the first Blight, many desperate imperial citizens turned to the worship of real dragons to replace the Old Gods who had failed them. A dragon, after all, was a god-figure that they could see: It was there, as real as the archdemon itself, and, as evidence makes clear, did offer a degree of protection to its cultists.

Other dragon cults could be explained in light of the first. Some cult members might have survived and spread the word. The worship of the Old Gods was as widespread as the Imperium itself--certainly such secrets could have made their way into many hands. But there have been reports of dragon cults even in places where the Imperium never touched, among folks who had never heard of the Old Gods or had any reason to. How does one explain them?

Members of a dragon cult live in the same lair as a high dragon, nurturing and protecting its defenseless young. In exchange, the high dragon seem to permit those cultists to kill a small number of those young in order to feast on draconic blood. That blood is said to have a number of strange long-term effects, including bestowing greater strength and endurance, as well as an increased desire to kill. It may breed insanity as well. Nevarran dragon-hunters have said these cultists are incredibly powerful opponents. The changes in the cultists are a form of blood magic, surely, but how did the symbiotic relationship between the cult and the high dragon form in the first place? How did the cultists know to drink the dragon's blood? How did the high dragon convince them to care for its young, or know that they would?

Is there more to draconic intelligence than we have heretofore guessed at? No member of a dragon cult has ever been taken alive, and what accounts exist from the days of the Nevarran hunters record only mad rants and impossible tales of godhood. With dragons only recently reappearing and still incredibly rare, we may never know the truth, but the question remains.

--From Flame and Scale, by Brother Florian, Chantry scholar, 9:28 Dragon.



A Chantry scholar calls the Reaver's consumption of magically prepared ritualized blood definitely blood magic, so logic dictates that the same thing applies to the Joining, which is also a form of consumption of magically prepared ritualized blood.

That same scholar says the changes the Reavers undergo is part of what makes it blood magic. Once again, the same thing applies to the Joining.

Blood magic is about more than just using blood. It's about gaining abilities from blood.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 07 août 2011 - 06:01 .

[Rifneno]

peacemaker wrote...

So Orlais trying to invade and annex territory into the Empire. How is that different from, lets say, Calenhad travelling around Ferelden conquering land so he could make himself king?

The same reason America's enslaving black people is different than Tevinter's enslaving of elves everybody:  They're still doing it.  Hundreds of years past vs present.  In addition, Calenhad was one incident.  Orlais has a long pattern of killing everyone who won't bow to them.

But I do commend you on coming up with an intelligent counterpoint, rather than studdering "b-b-b-but, MAGIC!" like the people who think the tool is more important than the deed it's used for.

[EmperorSahlertz]

So basically you dislike Orlais for being a powerful nation, which will consume the lesser nations around it?