124 réponses à ce sujet

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So basically you dislike Orlais for being a powerful nation, which will consume the lesser nations around it?

No, mostly it's for then using that power to brutalize the people they've conquered, for using religion as an excuse to look for more people to conquer and brutalize and for generally being hypocrits who preach how evil magic is while going about proving that there are many ways to be evil and magic is only occasionally one of them.

[dragonflight288]

The joinning ritual is also one of those "it can be viewed as blood magic" rituals. And Adralla can have tested her spell in a myriad different ways. It may have been entirely based on field testing. She may have taken a lucky guess. We will never know.

I personally wouldn't want to go into battle against a blood mage with a spell to prevent mind domination if it was only passed as "I hope it works because it's never been tested".

So basically you dislike Orlais for being a powerful nation, which will consume the lesser nations around it?

And no, I don't dislike Orlais because it has the heart of the chantry in it. Let me try to be as rationale, without emotions as possible with this as for the reasons I don't like Orlais. And I will attempt to keep the Chantry out of the argument as much as possible. They won't be gone entirely but that's because the Orlesians and the Chantry work together so often, and their interests commonly coincide.

Orlais is an empire where the nobles play petty games, just like any other country, medieval, in-game, or modern. They use bards and assassins to to manipulate events in their favor or to assassinate their political opponents. Again, this applies to every nation. What makes Orlais different is that the royal family only rose to power with the endorsement of the Chantry, and now the nobles were constantly seeking the approval of the current Emperor/Empress.

But their sovereign lord/lady obviously does not have nearly as much power over them as say England's King during the dark ages. King Alistair mentions this when he says that several nobles want their lost province back. Celene is advocating for peace, but Teagan is doubtful of there being any. This shows that the nobles are more than willing to ignore their queen to go out and conquer Fereldan.

Now I'm aware that the nobles in Fereldan did the same thing during Origins when Anora called for the fighting to stop and it took Eamon and a landsmeet to make it happen. But in Fereldan and the Free Marches (which I assume is similar to the other city-states based on Kirkwall), is that even the nobles fall under the law. Aveline's guards raided the Du Pui manor. The Templars went to those Orlesians in Act 3 whose son was actually a complete idiot.

If the templars knew she was shielding her son from them, they would fall under the same justice of the templars as the commoner who allowed her cousin some food and rest. We know this because her husband is concerned about that fact.

There is still corruption like the insane magistrate's son constantly getting off the hook for killing elves.

But in Orlais, nobles and chevaliers are allowed to rape any woman, not just elves in the alienage (which is a horrid act in and of itself) from the middle and lower class. Human, dwarven, elven, it doesn't matter. Then there's the expansionism, constantly working with the Chantry to help spread the Chant of Light to all four corners of the world. Through force of arms and bloodshed.

Of course Orlais would help the Chantry with that, it increases their own power in the world. And if that means helping the Chantry destroy the heathens, like the Dalish elves who helped Andraste in the war against the Imperium...well that just means more land for the nobles to bicker over and more elven slaves to buy and sell. They committed genocide for power.

If you can't tell, I just don't like politics no matter the country. The difference between Orlais's expansionism policies and Calanhad's in Fereldan was that Calanhad originally was fighting for the honor of his fallen Lord. Once the invading force that killed him saw his honor, they were so impressed they swore fealty to Calanhad and things just snowballed. Orlais deliberately conquers others, much like Tevinter once did. Orlais still slaughters thousands of people for their own religous and political power, while Tevinter slaughtered thousands of people for their magical and political power.

Fenris states that the one time an Archon made slavery illegal, he was slaughtered mercilessly by the other magisters. Slavery has been part of Tevinter for so long that they don't know how to act without it.

The Chantry has been part of Orlais from the beginning, and with their long history of expansionism and genocide of anyone who doesn't share their religious beliefs, they don't know how to act without that either. That is shown with evidence with Mother Petrice and the Qunari and the templars threatening the Dalish elves on Sundermount to convert, when all they were doing was waiting for a sister clan to give them some more halla (I heard that in a random comment from one of the elves).

And yes, those examples were the Chantry, but the Chantry and Orlais are so interlinked together that I have a hard time seeing Orlais not doing that either.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The difference would be that Orlais does not actively promote violence against its own people. Tevinter actually promotes it.

DG said that raping a peasant was NOT legal in Orlais. However to defend oneself against a Chevalier wasn't legal either (which would mimic some places in medieval Europe). And I have yet to see how "evil" Orlais is.

[dragonflight288]

Then I propose we agree to disagree. I have given my opinions and reasons for them, and I understand yours. As I stated in another thread (which country do you want to see), I want to play in Orlais for a bit, and see how the country is run for myself. Without firsthand knowledge, all I can do is take a look at the events of the past and how they associate now. And then form my own opinions.

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The difference would be that Orlais does not actively promote violence against its own people. Tevinter actually promotes it.

DG said that raping a peasant was NOT legal in Orlais. However to defend oneself against a Chevalier wasn't legal either (which would mimic some places in medieval Europe). And I have yet to see how "evil" Orlais is.

From the point of view of the victim, "legal" is whatever someone can get away with and never be punished for it.  If the Chevaliers know they can rape whomever they please and never get anything more than a lecture about how it's not nice, then that's pretty much the same as legal.

Orlais does bad things.  People who commit atrocities while complaining about other folks commiting atrocities are hypocrits.  You can be evil without sacrificing thousands of slaves in blood magic rituals.

[EmperorSahlertz]

If a Chevalier is caught raping anyone, by another Chevalier, he will be punished. A Chevalier can only get away with it, because the peasants can't do anything about it themselves.

And for some reasons you think that ALL Orlesian Chevaliers are some raping mosnter, who spent every waking hour of every day, planning how to execute his next flawlessly planned rape..... And even, as generalizing as that is, you take this idea of the Chevaliers, and transfer it unto the rest of Orlais.

[dragonflight288]

We don't think that. We only mention that Chevalier's CAN do that. Just like magisters CAN sacrifice slaves for power. Fenris himself states that there are magisters who don't do that.

[Herr Uhl]

GavrielKay wrote...

From the point of view of the victim, "legal" is whatever someone can get away with and never be punished for it.  If the Chevaliers know they can rape whomever they please and never get anything more than a lecture about how it's not nice, then that's pretty much the same as legal.

Bann Vaughan, is that you?

[dragonflight288]

Good point. Vaughan won't be punished by the city guards so long as he keeps his...activities to the elves. Still despicable and horrid, but he does get away with it unless the city elves rise up against him. And then they get punished for it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

We don't think that. We only mention that Chevalier's CAN do that. Just like magisters CAN sacrifice slaves for power. Fenris himself states that there are magisters who don't do that.

A Magister MUST be willing to sacrifice slaves if he wants power. Just like a Chevalier MUST rape a villager.... Oh wait...

And again: It isn't legal for a Chevalier.

[The Baconer]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
A Magister MUST be willing to sacrifice slaves if he wants power.

No they don't.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Fenris pretty much points out that those Magister who doesn't, are the bottom of the food chain in Tevinter. Right above the normal mages and slaves, that is.

[TEWR]

So then they don't have to, do they? They may not be the most powerful magisters, but they're magisters nonetheless and can enjoy the perks it brings.

[The Baconer]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Fenris pretty much points out that those Magister who doesn't, are the bottom of the food chain in Tevinter. Right above the normal mages and slaves, that is.

A lowly magician killed the entire Imperial court save the Archon, and nearly took the title for himself. No sacrificed slaves required.

[Rifneno]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Bann Vaughan, is that you?

If it is, someone here needs to lay off the necromancy...

[Herr Uhl]

Rifneno wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Bann Vaughan, is that you?

If it is, someone here needs to lay off the necromancy...

Right, so if her brother would have killed the chevalier instead of just attacking him, Orlais would be just as just as Ferelden.

You could say that he gets repaid in karma by Arl Howe when he throws him in a dungeon, but karma is a pretty bad juridical system.

[EnforcerGREG]

The Baconer wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Fenris pretty much points out that those Magister who doesn't, are the bottom of the food chain in Tevinter. Right above the normal mages and slaves, that is.

A lowly magician killed the entire Imperial court save the Archon, and nearly took the title for himself. No sacrificed slaves required.

What codex entry is that?

[The Baconer]

EnforcerGREG wrote...
What codex entry is that?

Backstory for the Lifedrinker amulet in Origins.

[andraip]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The difference would be that Orlais does not actively promote violence against its own people. Tevinter actually promotes it.

DG said that raping a peasant was NOT legal in Orlais. However to defend oneself against a Chevalier wasn't legal either (which would mimic some places in medieval Europe). And I have yet to see how "evil" Orlais is.

Riiiiight

Actually Blood Magic is ILLEGAL in Tevinter, but no one there gives a [llama] about it.

[t0mm06]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Indeed. I remember all of those.


I'll be pissed if Bioware makes the Fall of the Dales the fault of the elves.

i'll agree with this BUT i dont want them to make it %100 the chantrys fault either, from what i've read the elvs were pretty selfish in some repects, like they refused to help fight the second blight AND before anyone say 'yes but can you blame them, look how humans had treated them' yes you can blame them as it was also humans that helped free them, and it was these humans suffering most from the blight. 
so yeh i hope that it does stay that, whilst the fall of the dales is a horrible thing the chantry has done, they make sure you can still see that the elves arnt perfect either

[Rifneno]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Bann Vaughan, is that you?

If it is, someone here needs to lay off the necromancy...

Right, so if her brother would have killed the chevalier instead of just attacking him, Orlais would be just as just as Ferelden.

You could say that he gets repaid in karma by Arl Howe when he throws him in a dungeon, but karma is a pretty bad juridical system.

How the hell did you get that out of a joke about killing Vaughan?

[Herr Uhl]

Rifneno wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Right, so if her brother would have killed the chevalier instead of just attacking him, Orlais would be just as just as Ferelden.

You could say that he gets repaid in karma by Arl Howe when he throws him in a dungeon, but karma is a pretty bad juridical system.

How the hell did you get that out of a joke about killing Vaughan?

Seemed mostly like a dismissal, you killed him, hence the jurudical system of Ferelden is superior to those ghastly Orlesians where the nobility can exploit the commoners.

I'm getting tired of the rape coming up as an Orlesian problem only. It happens whenever someone gets enough influence to be above the law.

[TEWR]

t0mm06 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Indeed. I remember all of those.


I'll be pissed if Bioware makes the Fall of the Dales the fault of the elves.

i'll agree with this BUT i dont want them to make it %100 the chantrys fault either, from what i've read the elvs were pretty selfish in some repects, like they refused to help fight the second blight AND before anyone say 'yes but can you blame them, look how humans had treated them' yes you can blame them as it was also humans that helped free them, and it was these humans suffering most from the blight. 
so yeh i hope that it does stay that, whilst the fall of the dales is a horrible thing the chantry has done, they make sure you can still see that the elves arnt perfect either

Oh I agree that it's stupid of the elves to have not helped out in the 2nd Blight, if that's indeed the case. Somehow, I wouldn't put it past the Chantry to say something to cast the elves in an even worse light.

But if they did actually say "You go be Blight-fighters yourselves", then that's incredibly stupid (it's a ****ing Blight. Everyone should put aside their petty differences and fight the Darkspawn until the Archdemon lies dead. Then they can go back to being pricks to one another).

[Sutekh]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Oh I agree that it's stupid of the elves to have not helped out in the 2nd Blight, if that's indeed the case. Somehow, I wouldn't put it past the Chantry to say something to cast the elves in an even worse light.

But if they did actually say "You go be Blight-fighters yourselves", then that's incredibly stupid (it's a ****ing Blight. Everyone should put aside their petty differences and fight the Darkspawn until the Archdemon lies dead. Then they can go back to being pricks to one another).

It's one version to excuse the Exalted March that kicked the elves out of the Dales. Others are, they were Blood Magic Heathens™ or they fought Orlais over territory and were good enough to have Orlais run sobbing in the Chantry's skirt and have the March started.

There are so many accounts of Dalish and pre-Dalish fighting blights that this version makes little sense if you ask me (but I might be a tiny little bit biased, admittedly).

[Ghost1041]

Two reasons I would chose the Imperium over Orlais. Tevinter wrong in many ways is right about the Qunari, they know that they will eventually return to try and conquer everyone. The Archon can't do it alone enlist today! And the other reason I wouldn't choose Orlais? They are SOOOOOO Orlaisian