Yeah there are always going to be violent conversions, but the point is that those are even possible. The fact that something that is not even a nation, has a standing army that can go wherever it wants and people will lay out the red carpet while they put the boots to the heretics, says a lot about their power.
Tevinter cant send an army marching through Thedas, even when they ruled Thedas, no one liked them lol. But the Chantry, an arm of Orlais has their hands in everything, they play a role in steering the course of civilization, that's some serious power. And yeah I would like to see Nevarra too.
Orlais is another Imperium
Débuté par
WhiteKnyght
, août 07 2011 02:22
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#102
Posté 08 août 2011 - 01:35
EmperorSahlertz
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Oh with out a doubt that adds to the vilification of Orlais. But since we are already having a major dislike of the Chantry (for whatever reasons), Orlais being the seat of the Chantry, doesn't help their reputation.Herr Uhl wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Ironically Nevarra is almost as expansionistic as Orlais, yet they aren't the seat of the Chantry, so they aren't villified.
I think much of the ire is due to the first hand accounts of the Orlesian occupation. Not much is known about Nevarra or how they treat their conquered lands.
#103
Posté 08 août 2011 - 01:42
dragonflight288
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Oh with out a doubt that adds to the vilification of Orlais. But since
we are already having a major dislike of the Chantry (for whatever
reasons), Orlais being the seat of the Chantry, doesn't help their
reputation.
Don't you think it's possible for people too not like Orlais despite the Chantry presence?
#104
Posté 08 août 2011 - 01:46
EmperorSahlertz
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Of course, I was speaking from a general point of view. With Orlais being the mightiest human nation, it is bound to garner dislike (yay for the underdog!). Add to that that it is also the main seat of a religion (which is very modern to hate), and you detract even further from the reputation. Now isolate either of these cases, and you still got enough reasons for hate against Orlais. But add them together, and you got the perfect recipe for simple prejudiced hate, based on almost no information.
#105
Posté 08 août 2011 - 01:50
dragonflight288
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Hmm....nice rebuttal. Made me stop and think for a moment.
"I'm Rocky Balboa! I am the greatest underdog story" lol.
We do have plenty of information on Orlais. Most of it is second hand from people who lived it. And almost all of it is negative. The Chantry simply makes Orlais a bigger target, which is true, but both are guilty of a huge number of trespasses against others for having differing beliefs.
"I'm Rocky Balboa! I am the greatest underdog story" lol.
We do have plenty of information on Orlais. Most of it is second hand from people who lived it. And almost all of it is negative. The Chantry simply makes Orlais a bigger target, which is true, but both are guilty of a huge number of trespasses against others for having differing beliefs.
#106
Posté 08 août 2011 - 02:02
TEWR
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Admittedly, we don't know a whole lot about Orlais, but we know more about Orlais than we do of other nations.
We know Celene shares the same expansionist policies that Emperor Drakon did. Because of that, it's hard to trust her entirely when she says she wants peace between Ferelden and Orlais.
We also know that the University of Orlais has apparently drawn the ire of religious people for what the liberal-minded professors teach.
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Orlais
To be honest, I don't know where the wiki got that last point I made.
We know Celene shares the same expansionist policies that Emperor Drakon did. Because of that, it's hard to trust her entirely when she says she wants peace between Ferelden and Orlais.
We also know that the University of Orlais has apparently drawn the ire of religious people for what the liberal-minded professors teach.
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Orlais
To be honest, I don't know where the wiki got that last point I made.
#107
Posté 08 août 2011 - 02:06
EmperorSahlertz
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True. But so does every nation. The Ferelden (the fan favorite.) decimated various barbarian tribes, which didn't want to join in a nation, or simply didn't want Calenhad as king. Bottom line, people will always find a reason to kill eachother for the slightest differences. Orlais is simply the biggest and easiest target.
#108
Posté 08 août 2011 - 02:08
DarkDragon777
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Yeah, it kind of reminds me of what Miranda said about Illium.
"Illium is 1 bad choice away from becoming another Omega."
"Orlais is one bad choice away from becoming another Imperium."
"Illium is 1 bad choice away from becoming another Omega."
"Orlais is one bad choice away from becoming another Imperium."
#109
Posté 08 août 2011 - 02:25
TEWR
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I'm going to post the entire 3 codexes dealing with Calenhad.
Prior to the crowning of King Calenhad, Ferelden was little more than a collection of independent arlings and teyrnirs that warred on each other constantly over petty matters.
Calenhad was born in 5:20 Exalted as the third son of a Highever merchant on hard times. He was eventually sent to a distant cousin, a poor young knight named Ser Forannan, who made Calenhad his squire and dog-handler. As the tale goes, Ser Forannan and his squire became caught up in one of the wars of unity at the time: Arl Myrddin was a strong but generally disliked man who was making a bid for kingship. Forannan's own lord, a young fool of an arl named Tenedor no older than Calenhad, was besieged by Myrddin's forces at his castle, today known as West Hill. When Myrrdin called Tenedor out to parley, the young arl asked for a volunteer from among the squires, someone who could masquerade as Tenedor in the parley party. Calenhad kneeled (knelt) before Tenedor and asked for the honor.
Much to Tenedor's and Ser Fornnan's dismay, Calenhad immediately identified himself to Arl Myrddin. When asked by the arl why he was here, Calehad explained that he had been asked to take the place of his lord. The arl said that he had planned to kill Tenedor -- was Calenhad willing to die in his lord's place, as well? Calenhad impressed Myrddin and his allies by saying that he was. Myrrdin offered Calenhad a place as his own squire, but Calenhad refused, stating that if Myrddin had planned on betrraying the right of parley, he was no man of honor. Myrddin's allies laughed at that, and Myrrdin himself conceded that Calenhad had a point. He allowed Calenhad to return to the castle safely and launched his final assault.
During the assault, both Tenedor and Forannan were killed, but Calenhad found himself in one-on-one combat with Arl Myrrdin. In front of all of Myrddin's allies, Calenhad defeated the arl and commanded (that) he call off his armies. The arl asked Calenhad who he professed to serve now, if both his knight and his lord were dead, to which Calenhad replied that he would do as his honor bade him to, for he had nothing else.
"You are not a man known for your honor," Calenhad said, "but I believe you wish to be. You allowed me to live once, and so now I do the same for you. Perhaps if more of our people lived by honor, we would learn to trust each other long enough to live together." And with that, Calenhad withdrew his sword.
"I am humbled by your words," Arl Myrrdin told Calenhad, dropping to one knee. To his allies he shouted that he now knew he would never be king, but he knew who should be. With that Myrddin pledged allegiance to Calenhad,whom he named teyrn and ruler of Tenedor's lands.
With the allegiance of Arl Myrddin, Calenhad began his rise to greatness.
Some of Myrddin's allies also pledged allegiance, but most thought him foolhardy: A boy commoner was to lead them and become king? Over the years that followed, however, Calenhad would prove himself worthy of Myrddin's trust. With each victory, he won over more men to his command and his reputation as a man of honor spread. Eventually, during his campaign against the lowland bannorn, he met his most infamous friend and companion, the vaunted warrior Lady Shayna. Calenhad married the famously beautiful daughter of Myrddin, Mairyn, and his firm belief in the ways of the Chantry became the staple of his court. In a time when the Chantry was still new to the lands and courts following Andraste held the majority of the power in Ferelden, Calenhad began to solidify the nation as one in line with the other nations around it. This piety eventually won over to Calenhad those faithful in Ferelden who had been waiting for such a leader.
With Lady Shayna at his side, Calenhad was unstoppable, and by 5:42 Exalted, the war for Ferelden had come down to one final battle against the collected forces of Simeon, Teyrn of Denerim and the most potent nobleman in the land. Calenhad persuaded the Circle of Magi to come to his aid, as well as the Ash Warriors, and in the Battle of White Valley, he famously defeated Teyrn Simeon and united the nation.
During the battle, Simeon nearly killed Calenhad, but Lady Shayna intervened and took the wound for him, slaying Simeon. Calenhad was crowned king in Denerim that year, with Mairyn his Queen, but he spent much of the months that followed nursing Lady Shayna back to health.
King Calenhad's Ferelden was peaceful for a time, with the Chantry spreading quickly under the King's guidance. Everywhere the king and queen went, they were surrounded by cheering crowds. The common folk celebrated Calenhad as one of their own who had achieved the impossible, and trade opened up with many outside lands for the first time in Ferelden's existence. But, as with many such golden ages, it was not to last.
Calenhad's legend tells that Lady Shayna harbored a love for her king that went beyond friendship, a love that she had kept secret out of her sense of duty and honor. When offered a love potion by a witch in disguise--a witch who would later turn out to be the vengeance-seeking sister of Arl Simeon--Lady Shayna gave in to temptation. She used the potion on Calenhad, but Queen Mairyn discovered the two of them together that night, and, broken-hearted, fled Denerim to return to her father. She told Myrddin everything, and he angrily threatened to revoke his support of Calenhad and begin anew the civil war.
It is said that Lady Shayna felt remorseful at her manipulation of her best friend's heart and confessed her use of forbidden magic to the court. Although her life was forfeit, Calenhad forgave Lady Shayna for what she had done and refused to have her executed. Myrddin furiously roused the other arls against Calenhad and Lady Shayna, and it was not long before Ferelden stood on the brink of civil war once again.
Against Calenhad's orders, Lady Shayna went alone to Mairyn to plead for peace and plead her case, only to be found out by Myrddin and slain. Angered but also saddened, Calenhad challenged Myrddin to an honor duel, a fight neither of them wanted but both knew was necessary, and Myrddin was slain. The death of the king's greatest ally, an important arl, was too much for the young kingdom to bear. The other arls would not back down in their claims against Calenhad. The threat of civil war rose once again. Calenhad went to his wife one last time then, although none know what he said to her, and then he simply vanished. He left with Mairyn a proclamation abdicating his throne in favor of the son his queen carried in her belly, who eventually ascended to the throne as King Weylan I, the king credited with establishing the Theirin dynasty lasting to this day. Calenhad would never reappear.
The legend of Calenhad himself only grew over time, as stories and sightings multiplied, even long after the point when Calenhad could possibly still be alive. Some say he disappeared into the Korcari Wilds or went to live with the dwarves or even became a monk in a reclusive Chantry order. The Chantry named Calenhad one of the Anointed in 7:88 Storm. Calenhad's sword, Nemetos, was left with Mairyn and became a symbol of Ferelden kingship over the next century. Rumors of its magical powers grew, and when it was lost in the ambush that killed King Venedrin in 8:24 Blessed, it was seen as a great blow to the Theirin line. Several false swords have appeared since that time, but never has the true sword resurfaced.
-- From The Legend of Calenhad, by Brother Herren, Chantry scribe, 8:10 Blessed.
It seems more like he wanted to unite the country and cease their petty squabbling that resulted in so much bloodshed. With each victory, people swore to serve him gladly. While they were skeptical at first, he quickly won their hearts.
While he militarily expanded Ferelden, the difference between Ferelden and Orlais is that Ferelden didn't keep trying to expand their influence and ignoring what other people wanted. Orlais occupied Nevarra after the Third Blight was ended and didn't leave until Nevarra rose up against them forty years later.
Prior to the crowning of King Calenhad, Ferelden was little more than a collection of independent arlings and teyrnirs that warred on each other constantly over petty matters.
Calenhad was born in 5:20 Exalted as the third son of a Highever merchant on hard times. He was eventually sent to a distant cousin, a poor young knight named Ser Forannan, who made Calenhad his squire and dog-handler. As the tale goes, Ser Forannan and his squire became caught up in one of the wars of unity at the time: Arl Myrddin was a strong but generally disliked man who was making a bid for kingship. Forannan's own lord, a young fool of an arl named Tenedor no older than Calenhad, was besieged by Myrddin's forces at his castle, today known as West Hill. When Myrrdin called Tenedor out to parley, the young arl asked for a volunteer from among the squires, someone who could masquerade as Tenedor in the parley party. Calenhad kneeled (knelt) before Tenedor and asked for the honor.
Much to Tenedor's and Ser Fornnan's dismay, Calenhad immediately identified himself to Arl Myrddin. When asked by the arl why he was here, Calehad explained that he had been asked to take the place of his lord. The arl said that he had planned to kill Tenedor -- was Calenhad willing to die in his lord's place, as well? Calenhad impressed Myrddin and his allies by saying that he was. Myrrdin offered Calenhad a place as his own squire, but Calenhad refused, stating that if Myrddin had planned on betrraying the right of parley, he was no man of honor. Myrddin's allies laughed at that, and Myrrdin himself conceded that Calenhad had a point. He allowed Calenhad to return to the castle safely and launched his final assault.
During the assault, both Tenedor and Forannan were killed, but Calenhad found himself in one-on-one combat with Arl Myrrdin. In front of all of Myrddin's allies, Calenhad defeated the arl and commanded (that) he call off his armies. The arl asked Calenhad who he professed to serve now, if both his knight and his lord were dead, to which Calenhad replied that he would do as his honor bade him to, for he had nothing else.
"You are not a man known for your honor," Calenhad said, "but I believe you wish to be. You allowed me to live once, and so now I do the same for you. Perhaps if more of our people lived by honor, we would learn to trust each other long enough to live together." And with that, Calenhad withdrew his sword.
"I am humbled by your words," Arl Myrrdin told Calenhad, dropping to one knee. To his allies he shouted that he now knew he would never be king, but he knew who should be. With that Myrddin pledged allegiance to Calenhad,whom he named teyrn and ruler of Tenedor's lands.
With the allegiance of Arl Myrddin, Calenhad began his rise to greatness.
Some of Myrddin's allies also pledged allegiance, but most thought him foolhardy: A boy commoner was to lead them and become king? Over the years that followed, however, Calenhad would prove himself worthy of Myrddin's trust. With each victory, he won over more men to his command and his reputation as a man of honor spread. Eventually, during his campaign against the lowland bannorn, he met his most infamous friend and companion, the vaunted warrior Lady Shayna. Calenhad married the famously beautiful daughter of Myrddin, Mairyn, and his firm belief in the ways of the Chantry became the staple of his court. In a time when the Chantry was still new to the lands and courts following Andraste held the majority of the power in Ferelden, Calenhad began to solidify the nation as one in line with the other nations around it. This piety eventually won over to Calenhad those faithful in Ferelden who had been waiting for such a leader.
With Lady Shayna at his side, Calenhad was unstoppable, and by 5:42 Exalted, the war for Ferelden had come down to one final battle against the collected forces of Simeon, Teyrn of Denerim and the most potent nobleman in the land. Calenhad persuaded the Circle of Magi to come to his aid, as well as the Ash Warriors, and in the Battle of White Valley, he famously defeated Teyrn Simeon and united the nation.
During the battle, Simeon nearly killed Calenhad, but Lady Shayna intervened and took the wound for him, slaying Simeon. Calenhad was crowned king in Denerim that year, with Mairyn his Queen, but he spent much of the months that followed nursing Lady Shayna back to health.
King Calenhad's Ferelden was peaceful for a time, with the Chantry spreading quickly under the King's guidance. Everywhere the king and queen went, they were surrounded by cheering crowds. The common folk celebrated Calenhad as one of their own who had achieved the impossible, and trade opened up with many outside lands for the first time in Ferelden's existence. But, as with many such golden ages, it was not to last.
Calenhad's legend tells that Lady Shayna harbored a love for her king that went beyond friendship, a love that she had kept secret out of her sense of duty and honor. When offered a love potion by a witch in disguise--a witch who would later turn out to be the vengeance-seeking sister of Arl Simeon--Lady Shayna gave in to temptation. She used the potion on Calenhad, but Queen Mairyn discovered the two of them together that night, and, broken-hearted, fled Denerim to return to her father. She told Myrddin everything, and he angrily threatened to revoke his support of Calenhad and begin anew the civil war.
It is said that Lady Shayna felt remorseful at her manipulation of her best friend's heart and confessed her use of forbidden magic to the court. Although her life was forfeit, Calenhad forgave Lady Shayna for what she had done and refused to have her executed. Myrddin furiously roused the other arls against Calenhad and Lady Shayna, and it was not long before Ferelden stood on the brink of civil war once again.
Against Calenhad's orders, Lady Shayna went alone to Mairyn to plead for peace and plead her case, only to be found out by Myrddin and slain. Angered but also saddened, Calenhad challenged Myrddin to an honor duel, a fight neither of them wanted but both knew was necessary, and Myrddin was slain. The death of the king's greatest ally, an important arl, was too much for the young kingdom to bear. The other arls would not back down in their claims against Calenhad. The threat of civil war rose once again. Calenhad went to his wife one last time then, although none know what he said to her, and then he simply vanished. He left with Mairyn a proclamation abdicating his throne in favor of the son his queen carried in her belly, who eventually ascended to the throne as King Weylan I, the king credited with establishing the Theirin dynasty lasting to this day. Calenhad would never reappear.
The legend of Calenhad himself only grew over time, as stories and sightings multiplied, even long after the point when Calenhad could possibly still be alive. Some say he disappeared into the Korcari Wilds or went to live with the dwarves or even became a monk in a reclusive Chantry order. The Chantry named Calenhad one of the Anointed in 7:88 Storm. Calenhad's sword, Nemetos, was left with Mairyn and became a symbol of Ferelden kingship over the next century. Rumors of its magical powers grew, and when it was lost in the ambush that killed King Venedrin in 8:24 Blessed, it was seen as a great blow to the Theirin line. Several false swords have appeared since that time, but never has the true sword resurfaced.
-- From The Legend of Calenhad, by Brother Herren, Chantry scribe, 8:10 Blessed.
It seems more like he wanted to unite the country and cease their petty squabbling that resulted in so much bloodshed. With each victory, people swore to serve him gladly. While they were skeptical at first, he quickly won their hearts.
While he militarily expanded Ferelden, the difference between Ferelden and Orlais is that Ferelden didn't keep trying to expand their influence and ignoring what other people wanted. Orlais occupied Nevarra after the Third Blight was ended and didn't leave until Nevarra rose up against them forty years later.
#110
Posté 08 août 2011 - 02:34
TJPags
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Keep in mind something, though - in wanting to "unite his country", Calenhad, just like every other ruler who does that, has to first decide where the borders of the country are. So, in a way, every province or tribe or area that's conquered in the name of "unifying the country" is actually expansionist conquest.
Which is no different than what Orlais did, really.
Which is no different than what Orlais did, really.
#111
Posté 08 août 2011 - 02:38
TEWR
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but eventually, Ferelden was content with what they had. His goal had always been to unite all of Ferelden. Orlais had already been established at this time and was more powerful then they were, so really they couldn't have waged a war against them.
Well... they could've. But it would've been stupid.
Well... they could've. But it would've been stupid.
#112
Posté 08 août 2011 - 02:41
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Sure, absolutely.
But he was the one who decided what constituted Ferelden, and those areas he felt were included, he claimed by force.
Yes, the details are different, but the concept is very much the same.
But he was the one who decided what constituted Ferelden, and those areas he felt were included, he claimed by force.
Yes, the details are different, but the concept is very much the same.
#113
Posté 08 août 2011 - 02:51
Darius Vir
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TJPags wrote...
Sure, absolutely.
But he was the one who decided what constituted Ferelden, and those areas he felt were included, he claimed by force.
Yes, the details are different, but the concept is very much the same.
I don't necessarily disagree with the overall point, but...in some sense, "Ferelden" was already pre-defined by its natural borders.
Frostbacks to the west. Korcari wilds in the south, Waking Sea and Amaranthine Ocean to the north and east respectively. So, it's not completely out of the question for someone to see what would be Ferelden pre-unification and see the potential for a united land. Also, the inhabitants were- I believe- all of related Alamarri stock. With the exceptions of the Avaar and Chasind who are still outside of Ferelden sovereignty, as well as the Dalish.
Again, it's mainly a devil's advocate point. I don't think Calenhad OR the Theirin bloodline were that great.
Modifié par Darius Vir, 08 août 2011 - 05:55 .
#114
Posté 08 août 2011 - 04:45
dragonflight288
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Look at the geography. Wilds to the south. Oceans to the North and East. Huge mountain range to the west, with only a single passage for people to travel to, which leads directly into Orlais.
The natural geography pretty much set the borders. Expanding north wouldn't work, nor would expanding east, and traveling south in the borders is just stupid with all the Chasind Tribes and Flemeth there. And only an idiot would declare war on Orlais while in the middle of uniting everything in this bowl of a country.
The natural geography pretty much set the borders. Expanding north wouldn't work, nor would expanding east, and traveling south in the borders is just stupid with all the Chasind Tribes and Flemeth there. And only an idiot would declare war on Orlais while in the middle of uniting everything in this bowl of a country.
#115
Posté 08 août 2011 - 09:47
elfdwarf
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power and pride will corrupt anyone even chantry
#116
Posté 08 août 2011 - 11:22
Wulfram
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Darius Vir wrote...
I don't necessarily disagree with the overall point, but...in some sense, "Ferelden" was somewhat already pre-defined by its natural borders.
Not predefined enough that Loghian doesn't carry around "An optimistic--some might say fanciful--map in a belt case, with the
borders of Ferelden adjusted to represent Loghain's machinations. Whether he regards it as unfinished or folly is not forthcoming."
Modifié par Wulfram, 08 août 2011 - 11:41 .
#117
Posté 08 août 2011 - 11:26
Herr Uhl
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Wulfram wrote...
Darius Vir wrote...
I don't necessarily disagree with the overall point, but...in some sense, "Ferelden" was somewhat already pre-defined by its natural borders.
Not predefined enough that Loghian doesn't carry around "An optimistic--some might say fanciful--map in a belt case, with the borders of Ferelden adjusted to represent Loghain's machinations. Whether he regards it as unfinished or folly is not forthcoming."
He is also the man who considered Arl Howe to be totally legit.
#118
Posté 08 août 2011 - 04:39
GavrielKay
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EmperorSahlertz wrote...
True. But so does every nation. The Ferelden (the fan favorite.) decimated various barbarian tribes, which didn't want to join in a nation, or simply didn't want Calenhad as king. Bottom line, people will always find a reason to kill eachother for the slightest differences. Orlais is simply the biggest and easiest target.
Orlais did seem to take it further by abusing their conquered lands. Perhaps they abuse their own people too, but that doesn't make it better.
I don't recall stories of Calenhad letting his knights get away with raping whoever they pleased. Not that it wouldn't have happened to some degree, but not so much that he was infamous for it.
Conquered nations are rarely happy about it in the short term, but I think we hear some pretty bad stories about the Chevaliers and Orlais.
#119
Posté 08 août 2011 - 04:49
naledgeborn
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Calenhad did not conquer Fereldan. He united it. As soon as the various Banns, Arls, and Teryns swore fealty one by one he immediately handed back their lands, no questions asked. Orlais did the opposite by placing puppet Orlesian nobles in power.
Ask yourselves, what would an Orlesian noble think of a Fereldan peasant or surf? Then ask yourselves what would a Fereldan noble think of the Fereldan surfs and peasants who's been under his/her's families charge for ages? It is not the same by any means.
Ask yourselves, what would an Orlesian noble think of a Fereldan peasant or surf? Then ask yourselves what would a Fereldan noble think of the Fereldan surfs and peasants who's been under his/her's families charge for ages? It is not the same by any means.
Modifié par naledgeborn, 08 août 2011 - 04:49 .
#120
Posté 08 août 2011 - 08:01
peacemaker
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naledgeborn wrote...
Calenhad did not conquer Fereldan. He united it. As soon as the various Banns, Arls, and Teryns swore fealty one by one he immediately handed back their lands, no questions asked. Orlais did the opposite by placing puppet Orlesian nobles in power.
Perhaps the Orlesians would have done the same if the Fereldans had sworn fealty to the Empire? We don't know.
It should also be noted that the vast majority of information we have on Orlais is from Fereldan texts or Fereldans.
For instance, the history of Ferelden codex entry by Sister Pentrine writes about Orlesian cruelty and then continues to write about the resistance by Maric as "the battle to free our people".
And it's not like the Fereldans themselves are pure-hearted saints.
Calenhad forced the Landsmeet to recognise him as king through intimidation (sorrounding the building with Ash Warriors and Mages)
#121
Posté 09 août 2011 - 01:48
Sylvianus
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I find it really interesting that people blame Orlais about its conquests over other people, while simultaneously defending Tevinter. The beautiful Tevinter.
Tevinter, you know how it started to become an empire throughout Thedas ? By doing exactly what Orlais did. Before, it was just an ambitious country, expansionnist and bloody. It spread across the continent by the blood and brutality. then they forced people to accept its authority by the force of its magic, its armies and its culture. Just like Orlais... Well without the magic..
So if you dislike Orlais, you hate it for that, you must hate Tevinter.
Tevinter, you know how it started to become an empire throughout Thedas ? By doing exactly what Orlais did. Before, it was just an ambitious country, expansionnist and bloody. It spread across the continent by the blood and brutality. then they forced people to accept its authority by the force of its magic, its armies and its culture. Just like Orlais... Well without the magic..
So if you dislike Orlais, you hate it for that, you must hate Tevinter.
For now, it's the most honest reason that I read.Because Orlais is the seat of the Chantry, and therefore the root of all evil in the world. Isn't that obvious?
Modifié par Sylvianus, 09 août 2011 - 01:53 .
#122
Posté 09 août 2011 - 04:23
dragonflight288
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I have never defended Tevinter. Just used it as a model to compare Orlais and the Chantry too.
Both countries have very different tools to subjugate, but both do it. Both slaughter large groups of people for their own power, political, religious and magical. Both are conquerors.
Not speaking out against Tevinter is not the same as defending it. Just the focus is on another country.
Both countries have very different tools to subjugate, but both do it. Both slaughter large groups of people for their own power, political, religious and magical. Both are conquerors.
Not speaking out against Tevinter is not the same as defending it. Just the focus is on another country.
#123
Posté 09 août 2011 - 06:57
peacemaker
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dragonflight288 wrote...
Both countries have very different tools to subjugate, but both do it. Both slaughter large groups of people for their own power, political, religious and magical. Both are conquerors.
Sure, but tevinter then also systematically massacred slaves on the side. I still fail to see where we can compare that to the current rule in Orlais.
Also, Orlais and the Chantry haven't unleashed something like the Darkspawn upon Thedas.
In fact, Orlais has been the key to stop the blights many times. They were ready to help Fereldan forces defeat the horde, but were only blocked due to Fereldan paranoia.
Modifié par peacemaker, 09 août 2011 - 07:08 .
#124
Posté 10 août 2011 - 10:14
Bayz
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naledgeborn wrote...
Ask yourselves, what would an Orlesian noble think of a Fereldan peasant or surf? Then ask yourselves what would a Fereldan noble think of the Fereldan surfs and peasants who's been under his/her's families charge for ages? It is not the same by any means.
Interesting point, elven or human serfs? And even then it depends on the Fereldean\\Orlesian noble. Compare Vaughan to Lady Whatever (the one that raised Leliana, who wasn't even Orlesian)
GavrielKay wrote...
Orlais did seem
to take it further by abusing their conquered lands. Perhaps they abuse
their own people too, but that doesn't make it better.
I don't
recall stories of Calenhad letting his knights get away with raping
whoever they pleased. Not that it wouldn't have happened to some
degree, but not so much that he was infamous for it.
Conquered
nations are rarely happy about it in the short term, but I think we hear
some pretty bad stories about the Chevaliers and Orlais.
Yeah but Fereldean PoV is unreliable to say the least about Orlais. So would be Nevarra's.
Not saying Orlais is nice or anything, is France after all so nothing good could came from there
(Except amazing cathedrals and fashion and apparently female shoes and...)
#125
Posté 11 août 2011 - 02:40
TEWR
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The occupation was a dark blot on Ferelden's history. Our people, who from time immemorial valued their freedom over all else, were forced to bow to Orlesian rule. The Empire declared our elves property and sold them like cattle. Chevaliers routinely plundered freeholds of coin, food, and even women and children, and excused it as "taxation." And for 70 years no Landsmeets were held, for the Imperial throne had declared our ancient laws a form of treason.
King Brandel was one of those who escaped. He tried to organize the other fugitive lords to retake their land, but Brandel was neither clever nor persuasive, and the nobles preferred to take their chances alone. Ferelden might still be little more than a territory of the Empire were it not for the fact that his daughter had all the charisma that her royal father lacked. The Rebel Queen's rule began with a midnight attack on the imperial armory at Lothering. It was swift and successful, and with their pilfered arms the rebels began a campaign against the Orlesians in earnest.
But the turning point of the war came when a young freeholder joined the queen's army. The lad, Loghain Mac Tir, possessed a remarkable talent for strategy, and quickly became the favorite advisor of young Prince Maric. The queen finally died at the hands of Orlesian sympathizers anxious to curry favor with their painted masters, and Maric took her place as the leader of the rebellion. Loghain became Maric's right hand. Maric and Loghain led the rebels in a new campaign against their Orlesian oppressors, culminating in the battle of River Dane, where the last Chevaliers in Denerim were crushed. With the capital once more in the hands of Fereldans, the battle to free our people was finally over. But the battle to rebuild what had been lost had only just begun.
--From Ferelden: Folklore and History, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar
That certainly says a lot about Orlais, calling elves property and selling them. Not sure what The Stolen Throne said on the subject, but I'm sure Loghain would agree that Orlais is definitely a tyrannical empire. Especially since they stole his Mabari and returned her in such a weakened and horrific state that she died not long after.
King Brandel was one of those who escaped. He tried to organize the other fugitive lords to retake their land, but Brandel was neither clever nor persuasive, and the nobles preferred to take their chances alone. Ferelden might still be little more than a territory of the Empire were it not for the fact that his daughter had all the charisma that her royal father lacked. The Rebel Queen's rule began with a midnight attack on the imperial armory at Lothering. It was swift and successful, and with their pilfered arms the rebels began a campaign against the Orlesians in earnest.
But the turning point of the war came when a young freeholder joined the queen's army. The lad, Loghain Mac Tir, possessed a remarkable talent for strategy, and quickly became the favorite advisor of young Prince Maric. The queen finally died at the hands of Orlesian sympathizers anxious to curry favor with their painted masters, and Maric took her place as the leader of the rebellion. Loghain became Maric's right hand. Maric and Loghain led the rebels in a new campaign against their Orlesian oppressors, culminating in the battle of River Dane, where the last Chevaliers in Denerim were crushed. With the capital once more in the hands of Fereldans, the battle to free our people was finally over. But the battle to rebuild what had been lost had only just begun.
--From Ferelden: Folklore and History, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar
That certainly says a lot about Orlais, calling elves property and selling them. Not sure what The Stolen Throne said on the subject, but I'm sure Loghain would agree that Orlais is definitely a tyrannical empire. Especially since they stole his Mabari and returned her in such a weakened and horrific state that she died not long after.
