147 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

"Nothing's impossible when you don't care what's possible!"

[Golden Owl]

Sepewrath wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

So long as Ash ties her hair back for combat...I always thought Miranda looks ridiculous on so many levels...clothes, heels, hair...the whole image is just 'NO'.

You know who else went into combat in heels, with a catsuit and her hair not tied back? The Black Widow and all she does is get into fist fights with the Hulk, so I think Miranda could manage and I think Ashley could manage to not die because of hair.

Sorry...who?....

Reality has to play at least a small part at some point....I keep my hair tied back just around the house so it doesn't get in my face, let alone the idea of going into combat with it down...As for heels, tried them, in day to day they are a joke, let alone once again combat.....It looks completely ridiculous.

[Sepewrath]

Golden Owl wrote...
Sorry...who?....

Reality has to play at least a small part at some point....I keep my hair tied back just around the house so it doesn't get in my face, let alone the idea of going into combat with it down...As for heels, tried them, in day to day they are a joke, let alone once again combat.....It looks completely ridiculous.

Just google search The Black Widow and the Hulk if you need to lol. And no reality doesn't need to come into play, because its a video game, its suppose to stand in contrast to reality. Because if reality came into play, one Shepard wouldn't have been brought back to life, two Shepard would have died in ME1, three we wouldn't be fighting giant death machines from beyond the stars.

There wouldn't be romances and if it did get to the point of the Reapers arriving, they would clearly win, with the most basic of battle strategies and so on. If reality or how ridiculous it is, doesn't matter for the other 99.99% of this series, than it doesn't matter that someone is wearing heels or has long hair. Either its all fair game or none of it is.

[Swift Justice]

personaly i thought she was ok before but the new look is CRAZY HOT. though you are right about the impractical outfitt despite its hotness it doesn'y makesense, and while i am a fan of crazy hot i am also a fan of making sense, i say we comprimise. Bioware please create a super hot yet practical battle armor, i will be for ever in your debt. (I gues im already in debted to you for making all of my favorite games EVER but ill be more in your debt forthis.

[lost.long.ago]

Sepewrath wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...
Sorry...who?....

Reality has to play at least a small part at some point....I keep my hair tied back just around the house so it doesn't get in my face, let alone the idea of going into combat with it down...As for heels, tried them, in day to day they are a joke, let alone once again combat.....It looks completely ridiculous.

Just google search The Black Widow and the Hulk if you need to lol. And no reality doesn't need to come into play, because its a video game, its suppose to stand in contrast to reality. Because if reality came into play, one Shepard wouldn't have been brought back to life, two Shepard would have died in ME1, three we wouldn't be fighting giant death machines from beyond the stars.

There wouldn't be romances and if it did get to the point of the Reapers arriving, they would clearly win, with the most basic of battle strategies and so on. If reality or how ridiculous it is, doesn't matter for the other 99.99% of this series, than it doesn't matter that someone is wearing heels or has long hair. Either its all fair game or none of it is.

Eh, I disagree in the fact that people tend to be hatin' if it's not at least plausible in the scenario created by the game.  The reason we don't reject the story of ME is that is vaguely possible-ish in a future time... not likely, but possible.  I dislike character's who run around in heels for the same reason as Golden Owl, and am totally boycotting...  yeah... no...

[Archereon]

Based on a new screenshot, Ashely actually does wear armor in combat.

[Quole]

chairslayer wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

ashley's always been ugly.

lol this

*EDIT* But then again, I really don't care! I nuked her ass back on Virmire LOL:O

lol

[CptData]

I loved her old outfit (aka Phoenix armor) and I love her new oufit.

'nuff said.

*puts down gun*

[SinnersDestiny]

Fidget6 wrote...

I don't understand why people are making such an issue about Ashley. Her hair grew and she got new armor, who cares? What's so "demeaning" about that? Apparently girls with long hair are sl.uts now. <_<

Apparently some people don't understand that is has nothing to do with having her hair down, per se (although I do think that the hair style she is portraying is to girlie for her, she has never been that girlie, she was always a tomboy), but has everything to do with the fact that she now looks like your average female in a game: a plastic, fake, barbie doll sex object. I didn't like Ashley before now, (I thought she could be very aggressive and ****y at times, I don't like that) but atleast I had respect for her because she seemed like an actual woman who was not just there to pander to guys.


Now I have no respect for her because she is just like every other female in games. I guess the only females I can think of in a game, which I respect now, are Chell from Portal and Shale from Dragon Age. I do respect Samara, however, she is one of those rare characters  that have huge sex appeal and a skimpy outfit that I do respect. Ashley's new look IS demeaning. Because it gives her a porn star look that portrays her as nothing more than something for guys to look at. Even if it isn't true. No one will care about her personality. As per usual for females in games. Males in games have so much variation. Not all are attractive or meant for eye candy. Why can't females be the same too? Why do they ALWAYS have to look like sex objects?

Sashimi_taco wrote…

I think that if ashely is going to wear her hair down and be wearing that outfit, Kaidan should be shirtless on the normandy working on some mechanical stuff every time I go to talk to him. Also he has to be wearing tight pants so i can check out his butt.

I agree. It's only fair if they are going the"sex object" route.

Modifié par SinnersDestiny, 23 octobre 2011 - 02:55 .

[Nashiktal]

Following up on Sinner's points, the movie guy had a few words to say on the industry that is painfully evident with ashley's change.

http://www.escapistm...19-Gender-Games

[Pockles]

I like Ashley's new design. I'm happy so long as she gets that hair out of her face and puts on some armor before going into battle.

[Nashiktal]

Pockles wrote...

I like Ashley's new design. I'm happy so long as she gets that hair out of her face and puts on some armor before going into battle.

So exactly like her old look? 

[Iakus]

Nashiktal wrote...

Pockles wrote...

I like Ashley's new design. I'm happy so long as she gets that hair out of her face and puts on some armor before going into battle.

So exactly like her old look? 

Kind of.  Picture was really blurry so couldn't make out details.  But it looked like her hair was tied back in a braid and her armor looked black or really dark blue with a white Spectre logo on the front.

Edit:  Casual outfit is still laughably ridiculous, of course.  Honestly what was wrong with dark T-Shirt and cargo pants?

Modifié par iakus, 24 octobre 2011 - 04:16 .

[Quething]

Waitwait. Is someone trying to argue the Black Widow as justification for sexualizing Ashley?

Because comics fans don't object to the way female superheroes are portrayed, at all, right. Everyone agrees that's perfectly great, and dignity has no place for women in comics, so it should totally have no place for women in video games either. I guess I must have dreamed that whole MJ maquette debacle.

As for the topic title: No. No you are not.

Modifié par Quething, 24 octobre 2011 - 04:18 .

[Nashiktal]

Excuse my ignorance, but what is the MJ maquette debacle?

[V-rex]

I'll repeat my previous point:
I'm fine with Ashley's new outfit as long as she only wears it on the Normandy away from combat. It's stylish and sexy and it looks good on her and frankly I see no problem with her wearing it casually.

However for actual combat situations, I would rather Ashley go into it with heavy armor like everyone else. Garrus does it, Kaidan does it, Vega does it... I don't see why Ashley should be stuck wearing spandex in battle just because she's a woman. I want to see Ashley go into battle and wear the same basic combat armor as everyone else.
Fortunatley that blurry ass screenshot seems to imply that's about to happen. So yay, best of both worlds, stylish and sexy on Normandy, heavy badass armor when in combat.

I can live with that.

P.S person who used comic book example for why it's okay to have female characters running around in spandex and high heels in a combat situation... no. I'd say more but Quething said it for me.

[Quething]

Nashiktal wrote...

Excuse my ignorance, but what is the MJ maquette debacle?

You know that hypersexualized Liara statue everyone's been arguing about? Comic book characters get those all the time, and they're all like that. (Well, the women are. The men all get heroic, action-y poses.) And those of us who like superheroes and also respect women always roll our eyes, complain, refuse to buy them, and move on.

A few years ago, though, Marvel put out a statue of Mary-Jane Watson (Spider-Man's wife). It was typically gross; she was leaning over in a physically impossible position, washing her husband's laundry, wearing a pearl necklace and cutoff jeans with a thong sticking out, shoving her ass in the air, etc etc. By comic maquette standards it was perfectly normal. But somebody who wasn't a comic fan, who wasn't completely inured to this stuff, saw it. And went "oh my God that's... really gross." And she showed it to her friends, and they went "oh my God, that's really gross." And all the fans who were completely used to this stuff went "oh yeah, it's all still really gross, isn't it?"

And it ate the whole comic-fandom internet.

Marvel whined about it mightily. Mean ol' feminists being mean to them on the intertubes.

[Iakus]

V-rex wrote...

I'll repeat my previous point:
I'm fine with Ashley's new outfit as long as she only wears it on the Normandy away from combat. It's stylish and sexy and it looks good on her and frankly I see no problem with her wearing it casually.

However for actual combat situations, I would rather Ashley go into it with heavy armor like everyone else. Garrus does it, Kaidan does it, Vega does it... I don't see why Ashley should be stuck wearing spandex in battle just because she's a woman. I want to see Ashley go into battle and wear the same basic combat armor as everyone else.
Fortunatley that blurry ass screenshot seems to imply that's about to happen. So yay, best of both worlds, stylish and sexy on Normandy, heavy badass armor when in combat.

I can live with that.

I can live with it too.  But after seeing a full profile of the casual outfit, gotta say, pretty wince-worthy.  Not the loose hair, that's perfectly fine on the Normandy.  The actual outfit.  Still, at least she won't wear it while being shot at.

[SinnersDestiny]

elektrego wrote...


So every wowan that likes to dress up, deserves it to be compared to a porn star and they do so only to be eye candy for the guys and are not actual women, but fake plastic dolls.
Now here is a "healthy" attitude towards women for once. /sarcasm

It amazes me that people, who attack the superficiality of the buisness (on which I partially agree) are not that deep, when it comes to "criticizing" character development soley based on character design.
I am glad for you that you finally have a reason to hate Ashley "objectively", since you seem to have no problem in Samara's case, when the character actually cancels the bad design out for you.

And a little bit of info about Ashley from another post of mine:

I don't care for a more feminine look myself, but there is plenty of
evidence that contrary to what some people insist on, Ashley does care
about looks - she compliments her sister's figure, [the way it looks in the kind of clothing, she likes to wear,] when you talk about
the self-defense training, she compliments Liara, when you talk about
her age; you don't make such comments, unless you notice these things
and you don't notice these things, if you don't care!
So I can see
her wanting to be a little more feminine, now that she is no longer the
simple soldier, who has to work her ass off and still gets all the
crappy assignments. In the romance scene she says, she spent her whole
life fighting to get what she wants and she had to bury a lot of things,
to get it done. I think she didn't allow her herself to be more than
that simple soldier, but now that she has achieved something beyond her
wildest dreams, becoming an officer and apparenty even a spectre, these
things she had to bury are starting to surface.

I know, I am making assumptions, but so is everybody else. (and so is to say, that in the famous quote "nice solid armor" automatically means heavy armor with ceramic, ablative plating, when some designs in ME1 contradict that notion.)
All I am trying to show is, that the potential for Ashley wanting to be more feminine herself is already shown in ME1. Bioware didn't have to go that route, but it's a valid character development, if we like it or not. But than again, we have to wait and see, what she will be actually be like in ME3. As long as the people, who don't like it as armor get their alternative, I don't see any indication for her character to be changed for the worse, especially since there are some ugly things going on in the video game industry regarding the design of female characters.
Don't confuse the way you see the character, with the complete potential of a character. I know Mass Effect sometimes doesn't make it easy, when it restricts some of the information about a character to certain dialogue situations.
I have no problem, if someone sticks to critizing purely the design and the intention behind it. And I admit that the route they took is probably inspired by that problem, but yeah, the armors in ME1 were already quite shapely and sexy, too and call me crazy, but I actually don't think her "casual outfit" is that much different from some of the armor choices in ME1 and much better than Miranda's or Samara's outfit in ME2 for example.

As for my post probably being "b*tchy and agressive" in your eyes, well quite frankly, so is yours (porn star? really?), but then again, it  sometimes takes some time for us to smell our own farts, I am guilty of that myself sometimes.

People are rarely sex objects by themselves based on what they look like, it is the people, who interact with and talk about them in a certain way, that lets us see them in that lights, so yeah I do care about the character, no matter what she looks like. if you reject the character soley based on the design, than you are really not much better than the person, wo likes it soley based on the design.

This is going to be my last post on the subject, unless you can counter anything I said regarding the character Ashley Williams from an in-game perspective, without going to the meta-level of the gaming industry as a whole, you can just ignore me. As I said, I agree on that problem, but it is a problem with the whole game (well at least ME2, no conlcusive judgement about ME3 can be made at this point) and not the character.

Oh, and I know that this thread is specifically about Ashley's look, but some people just can't help themselves making it about the character.

If anything Mass Effect has always contradicted the "oversexed" design of some female characters (Asari, Miranda) by actually making them rather strong and independent, an aspect that has always "softened" the way, I look at the design.

As for the question in the title:
I would prefer a different look, but I don't think it's ugly either, but then again. I hardly find anything ugly, I give anything/anyone a chance.

And again, it seems that my point has gone through one ear and out the other. Which actually worries me. It's scary. Where exactly did I say that women dressing up and wanting to look good is a bad thing? No, I didn't say that because I do it myself.  I fully condone women wanting to do that. That is not the problem anyway. It has nothing to do with what my point was actually about.


Do you see the majority of woman who dress up to look good, casually walking down the street, wearing a skintight catsuit and layers of makeup? Do you see them looking like Miranda or Samara? No. You don't. And the ones that do are labeled "****s". Well, it certanally is a very bad taste in clothes anyway.

What Ashley is wearing is purely a male fantasy. She is not dressing like that "to look good and to feel good in herself". I can imagine someone "dresing up" like that in the bedroom though. Which is totally fine.


What this is, is the blatent sexulisation of a female character for the sole reason of men to have eye candy. Now,  I tolerate it with characters that are designed that way in the first place. Which is why I tolerate Samara and try to appreciate her for who she is, not what she wears. I collect comics, I game. I see it a lot. It annoys me that this is the ONLY portrail of women, apart from a few rare characters. I hope it will change in the future. I just have to keep hoping. But that is not the real problem here.

My real gripe with what they have done to Ashley is this: They have taken a previous character who was one of the only few who was not rediculously sexed up and still looks good, and I am sure she feels good about herself, and was one of the very few variations of women in games, I will repeat that because it is very important; one of the VERY FEW VARIATIONS, and sexed her up into a typical male fantasy. One which you see in every other game or comic around. Ashley may be a little girlie (as you can see by her pink armour) but she would NEVER be like that. It's too much, and your average woman wouldn't dress like that either. She WAS "your average woman". Not anymore.  She is another Miranda. And I find it very out of character for her. I am sort of girlie too, and still kind of a tomboy. It can easily be done without looking like barbie doll, plastering lots of make up on (she had great make up on before) and wearing skintight clothing. I hope she actually gets decent armour like the first game. Not some pathetic excuse for armour.

I really hope you are male, because if you are female, I am dissapoint. Every woman knows that this plastic skintight thing is not the only "look" you can have, and especially in order to look good and feel good. And what this look gives off is "objectify me". I am sure people who didn't like Ashley before now are saying "oh, I should have saved her!" or some such nonsence. Which only goes to show that if she looked like that before, they would have cared. That means that they only care about what she looks like. Not her personality. That is indeed objectifying.

On another note, this "strong and independant woman" thing is also being used to objectify. Miranda and Samara are VERY good examples of this. It is not meant to actually portray women as strong and independant, for women. It's just about sex, like a fetish for guys. Just take a look at Tomb Raider or Bayonetta. Dominatrix, comes to mind. I also couldn't care less about "strong and independant". I want there to be ALL types of women being portrayed. Not just this notion that ALL women would appreciate being strong, or maybe even independant. And then having it distorted into a male fantasy. The new Tomb Raider game looks right up my alley. She isn't strong and a Dominatrix like previous TR games, she seems real, cute, nice and also not as sexulised as before. So far, I like this version of TR a lot more.

As I said, I really do hope you are a guy, otherwise, you are totally oblivious.

Oh and another thing. Being pretty and feminine does not equate to dressing like that. That is actually an insult. You can be pretty and feminine WITHOUT having to go with that excuse for "femininity". Unless I want to send out the wrong signals and be treated only as an object, I will dress in my own feminine way. Tyvm. As to being aggressive, I am only being aggressive because this really gets under my skin. And for good reason. It really is horrible how we women are portrayed in the media, as just something pretty for guys to look at. Objectification in fantasy isn't bad (or if it is consensual irl, I got no complaints about what people consensually do in the bedroom), but when done to this scale in the media, where it is the only option for portraying women, and socially acceptable to boot, it is just down right demeaning. And considering the lack of females (lack is a huge understatement) in games who are actually respectful and not made as a sexual fantasy for males, (as I assure you, females would love to portray our gender differently, and in many different ways) I am very sad and dissapointed that one of the few amazing portrayals of a female character has bit the dust for mere over the top fanservice, which isn't needed for a female character to be great.

I can get too passionate. I am usually very nice. Too nice, infact. Which is why I don't take well to characters who are aggressive and ****y to others. Example: The way Tali treats Legion and the Geth in general. Or the way Ashley treats other species. So sorry about that. This whole thing just annoys me not no end.

Modifié par SinnersDestiny, 24 octobre 2011 - 08:17 .

[who would know]

It is especially weird that this male fantasy makeover has been thrust
upon a character that was the original Mass Effect's living, breathing,
fiery antithesis to Liara's doe-eyed "wish fulfillment".

SinnersDestiny wrote...

And what this look gives off is "objectify me". I am sure people who didn't like Ashley before now are saying "oh, I should have saved her!" or some such nonsence.

Yeah, it's happened. So much for "chars are designed to be loved by some players but not all". I don't think so, somehow.

Modifié par who would know, 24 octobre 2011 - 05:15 .

[DoNotIngest]

Didn't read more than the OP. Just sayin'.

While there hasn't been more than a couple of seconds of Ashley actually speaking, she's really giving off the uncanny valley vibe to me. Though I think the wave of hair over her eye is only adding to it. Really, she looks very different than the original Ashley, and I'm not talking about letting her hair down or the three gallons of makeup.

Being honest, I never really used her in ME1, and won't get a chance to in ME3 given certain nuclear physics. But I'm fairly happy that I decided to keep Kaidan around for ME3 now that Ashley's been... Well... *Looks at heels* Mirandafied. I likely won't use either of the original ME human squadmates much in ME3, so at least Kaidan can stand around looking slightly more buff and disciplined, rather than a completely different person, as is my opinion on Ashley's new look.

[Nashiktal]

Yeah when they first showed kaiden and ashley side by side nearly choked on my water. Kaiden looked like a tank, and ashley was down to a rubber suit.

Well at least bioware listened to our complaints. All we can do is wait and hope for some better pics or videos.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 24 octobre 2011 - 06:27 .

[Pockles]

Nashiktal wrote...

Pockles wrote...
I like Ashley's new design. I'm happy so long as she gets that hair out of her face and puts on some armor before going into battle.

So exactly like her old look? 

Only when she's fighting. There will be plenty of moments when she isn't, and her casual outfit would only be appropriate then.