Promoting thoughts episode five laments the lack of real successor to Neverwinter nights and discusses the impact of community content on a game and how it alone can drive a game forward.
It also invites everyone to help found and form a community a lobby group to try and encourage developers to take risks on more sandbox and community content generated games in the spirit of Neverwinter Nights and Minecraft.
Watch the vide and then get involved, the voice of a community is a powerful thing and can be even more powerful if it all pulls in the same direction.
Comments requests thoughts and feedback welcome.
Episode 5 here
Promoting thought 5 a call for more sandboxes
Débuté par
Kothoses Rothenkisal
, août 07 2011 11:01
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#2
Posté 07 août 2011 - 11:53
Kothoses Rothenkisal
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Whoops ment to put this in the nwn 1 forums but never mind it fits just aswell here.
#3
Posté 07 août 2011 - 01:00
dunniteowl
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Why yes, yes it does. Is there a link to a forum, thread, website or something that details who or what Promoting Thought 5 is in the first place? That'd be handy.
dunniteowl
(promoting Plan 9 as a potential conceptual successor, idea generator to NWN2, dig through the Citadel link in my siggy.)
dunniteowl
(promoting Plan 9 as a potential conceptual successor, idea generator to NWN2, dig through the Citadel link in my siggy.)
Modifié par dunniteowl, 07 août 2011 - 01:09 .
#4
Posté 07 août 2011 - 02:26
kamal_
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Why sell $10 expansions each year when you can sell $50 new games each year. Huge numbers of people happily buy FPS shooter 201x, Sports Game 201x. etc. I'd be surprised to ever see a triple A game that allowed that (it's why indies and Plan 9 are important).
#5
Posté 07 août 2011 - 04:04
M. Rieder
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Oooohhh!!!! is FPS shooter 201x out already? Thanks for the heads up Kamal!
#6
Posté 07 août 2011 - 04:15
kamal_
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They changed a few textures from FPS shooter 201x-1, and you get to play as a new 30-something muscular white guy with close cropped hair. It's now the BEST GAME EVAR.M. Rieder wrote...
Oooohhh!!!! is FPS shooter 201x out already? Thanks for the heads up Kamal!
#8
Posté 07 août 2011 - 04:28
Lugaid of the Red Stripes
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To the OP:
You have to take a look at Plan 9, as mentioned by Dunniteowl above. In there you'll find the design document you're looking for, for the next moddable cRPG.
Overall, what I think the the discussion boils down to is who gets tasked with what element of designing a game. Modern games have gotten too complex for the design studios, and as technology improves, the work needed to put a game together increases with the poly count. The move to online multi-player games, for example, is largely a way to sidestep the problem of designing of competent AI, by outsourcing the 'AI' to other players.
In most games, modders nip away at the edges, creating extra items, character models, or polishing up little annoying bits. NWN/2-style toolsets allow for whole new game worlds and stories, but keep the core engine largely off-limits. In the past, the 'deal' kinda worked out between the developers and the community was that the developers would make the engine to sell to the community, along with an original bit of content to get things started. The community would then make everything else, while the developers worked on a new engine to sell the community.
Now, I get the sense that the accountants figured that it's cheaper to hire artists and writers to make more content than to hire software engineers to make a better engine, and so the developers are being pushed to release more and more DLC instead of new games with new engines. The fallout of this is that the DLC comes into direct competition with community-made content, while the community gets frustrated because they don't get a new and improved engine to work with.
So now the community wants more say-so in the actual design of the engine, even as they worry that the publishers will discourage community-made content in favour of DLC, subscription-based online games, and console games. You can put forward a good argument that players want more community-friendly games, and the developers might want to make more community-friendly games, but ultimately such a project won't make any sense to the publishers, simply because they don't know how to monetize community activity yet, how to make money off of it. The idea behind Plan-9 is to cut out the professionals entirely, and produce the engine as open-license software. Another strategy might be to court a corporate that's not a traditional game-publisher, but has a sense of how to manage communities for profit (think Amazon, Netflix, Google, Valve/Steam?). One of them could hire a design studio to put the engine together, sell it for a modest price, and then reap what they can from the resultant community.
You have to take a look at Plan 9, as mentioned by Dunniteowl above. In there you'll find the design document you're looking for, for the next moddable cRPG.
Overall, what I think the the discussion boils down to is who gets tasked with what element of designing a game. Modern games have gotten too complex for the design studios, and as technology improves, the work needed to put a game together increases with the poly count. The move to online multi-player games, for example, is largely a way to sidestep the problem of designing of competent AI, by outsourcing the 'AI' to other players.
In most games, modders nip away at the edges, creating extra items, character models, or polishing up little annoying bits. NWN/2-style toolsets allow for whole new game worlds and stories, but keep the core engine largely off-limits. In the past, the 'deal' kinda worked out between the developers and the community was that the developers would make the engine to sell to the community, along with an original bit of content to get things started. The community would then make everything else, while the developers worked on a new engine to sell the community.
Now, I get the sense that the accountants figured that it's cheaper to hire artists and writers to make more content than to hire software engineers to make a better engine, and so the developers are being pushed to release more and more DLC instead of new games with new engines. The fallout of this is that the DLC comes into direct competition with community-made content, while the community gets frustrated because they don't get a new and improved engine to work with.
So now the community wants more say-so in the actual design of the engine, even as they worry that the publishers will discourage community-made content in favour of DLC, subscription-based online games, and console games. You can put forward a good argument that players want more community-friendly games, and the developers might want to make more community-friendly games, but ultimately such a project won't make any sense to the publishers, simply because they don't know how to monetize community activity yet, how to make money off of it. The idea behind Plan-9 is to cut out the professionals entirely, and produce the engine as open-license software. Another strategy might be to court a corporate that's not a traditional game-publisher, but has a sense of how to manage communities for profit (think Amazon, Netflix, Google, Valve/Steam?). One of them could hire a design studio to put the engine together, sell it for a modest price, and then reap what they can from the resultant community.
#10
Posté 07 août 2011 - 05:56
Kothoses Rothenkisal
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@ Dunnite Owl.
Website will come "if" there is enough interest in what I am doing, at the moment its just a series of video blogs that are designed to A promote discussion and B emphasise community as a resource for and in games development rather than a drain on resources that "some" companies see them as. Its an entirely hobbyist thing that I do alone at the moment I do them purely for the sake of it and the fact that I believe very strongly in the messages I put out in them and wanted to see just how many other people feel the same way.
Promoting thought 5 is the 5th episode of Promoting Thought
This Plan 9 thing looks very interesting, I have to head out but will have detailed look at it when I get back. Gods bless indie developers and all who sail with them!
Website will come "if" there is enough interest in what I am doing, at the moment its just a series of video blogs that are designed to A promote discussion and B emphasise community as a resource for and in games development rather than a drain on resources that "some" companies see them as. Its an entirely hobbyist thing that I do alone at the moment I do them purely for the sake of it and the fact that I believe very strongly in the messages I put out in them and wanted to see just how many other people feel the same way.
Promoting thought 5 is the 5th episode of Promoting Thought
This Plan 9 thing looks very interesting, I have to head out but will have detailed look at it when I get back. Gods bless indie developers and all who sail with them!
Modifié par Kothoses Rothenkisal, 07 août 2011 - 05:58 .
#11
Posté 07 août 2011 - 10:36
MokahTGS
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Well community based games like you are speaking of in Ep. 5 is generally the games I am drawn to. Just look at my sig and you can see that NWN/NWN2 makes up the majority of the games that I play. I also play Minecraft, Terraria, Oblivion, and am looking into NWO.
All to say that yes, this is a concept in gaming that I support and wish that more game companies would realize that this is a largely untapped market.
I have always said that the first company that fully realizes a game system that allows for true community building as its core design mechanic will win my gameing dollar 'till the end of time. So far, none of them have done it.
I would frequent a website built around this concept.
All to say that yes, this is a concept in gaming that I support and wish that more game companies would realize that this is a largely untapped market.
I have always said that the first company that fully realizes a game system that allows for true community building as its core design mechanic will win my gameing dollar 'till the end of time. So far, none of them have done it.
I would frequent a website built around this concept.
#12
Posté 08 août 2011 - 04:34
I_Raps
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kamal_ wrote...
They changed a few textures from FPS shooter 201x-1, and you get to play as a new 30-something muscular white guy with close cropped hair. It's now the BEST GAME EVAR.
I never touch these things until someone puts out the naked-for-all-practical-purposes anatomically-impossible-chick hack. Keep me abreast, will you?
#13
Posté 09 août 2011 - 01:10
Kothoses Rothenkisal
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Ok so having spent a couple of hours looking around the citadel site.
1, It looks like a massive imitative, but it is hard to tell, the links to the "official site" take me to one of those multi advert placeholders, and the information in the forums is a little haphazard and hard for a new comer to navigate.
2, there is no easy way to access the plan 9 information, I have spent a good 2 or 3 hours trawling the forum and all I know is that there is a guy from EA and a couple of the awesome Codi people working on an undefined project.
3, its amazing how much information you have there, astounding even, and yet hardly anyone I know has heard of you guys, this perplexed me because from what I can tell you guys are doing good work.
So, can anyone point me to where I can find a breakdown of what Plan 9 is? also who handles your publicity? there looks to be a massive infrastructure there but the tangled web of forums makes it hard to find.
Please please please dont take my above comments as a flame, because from what little I have managed to dissect information wise, this is a project that really sounds awesome and something I totally would want to see about supporting in some way or another but before I can do that I need more information
1, It looks like a massive imitative, but it is hard to tell, the links to the "official site" take me to one of those multi advert placeholders, and the information in the forums is a little haphazard and hard for a new comer to navigate.
2, there is no easy way to access the plan 9 information, I have spent a good 2 or 3 hours trawling the forum and all I know is that there is a guy from EA and a couple of the awesome Codi people working on an undefined project.
3, its amazing how much information you have there, astounding even, and yet hardly anyone I know has heard of you guys, this perplexed me because from what I can tell you guys are doing good work.
So, can anyone point me to where I can find a breakdown of what Plan 9 is? also who handles your publicity? there looks to be a massive infrastructure there but the tangled web of forums makes it hard to find.
Please please please dont take my above comments as a flame, because from what little I have managed to dissect information wise, this is a project that really sounds awesome and something I totally would want to see about supporting in some way or another but before I can do that I need more information
#14
Posté 09 août 2011 - 01:16
Kothoses Rothenkisal
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MokahTGS wrote...
Well community based games like you are speaking of in Ep. 5 is generally the games I am drawn to. Just look at my sig and you can see that NWN/NWN2 makes up the majority of the games that I play. I also play Minecraft, Terraria, Oblivion, and am looking into NWO.
All to say that yes, this is a concept in gaming that I support and wish that more game companies would realize that this is a largely untapped market.
I have always said that the first company that fully realizes a game system that allows for true community building as its core design mechanic will win my gameing dollar 'till the end of time. So far, none of them have done it.
I would frequent a website built around this concept.
Your sig reads like a who's who of major RPG releases.
I know exactly what you mean though, its why I cried inside when I heard that Cryptics Neverwinter was going to be based on the CO / STO technology
#15
Posté 09 août 2011 - 02:40
dunniteowl
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My main computer is not yet back online, though the parts are sitting there, waiting for me to finish putting a roof on my house in 100F + degree heat. When I get it back up and online, I will happily synopsize and collate much of the information. I don't take it personally, the site needs a revamp and I've had many more pressing issues. In the meantime, just do your best. We also have some stuff on SourceForge, but, again, without the main computer, I can't really guide you to that aspect of it from there. I've also been out of touch due to these RL issues, so I have to sort of reconnect with some of the other members as well.
I do think it's an awesome, though incredibly ambitious, all volunteer concept. The site wasn't really designed by me, nor was it really intended to contain the amount of information it does, so it's gotten a bit unwieldy over the years and the accretion of all that stuff. Of course, it was my idea, so I'd think it was awesome. I'm just glad others seem to think so as well.
dno
I do think it's an awesome, though incredibly ambitious, all volunteer concept. The site wasn't really designed by me, nor was it really intended to contain the amount of information it does, so it's gotten a bit unwieldy over the years and the accretion of all that stuff. Of course, it was my idea, so I'd think it was awesome. I'm just glad others seem to think so as well.
dno
#16
Posté 09 août 2011 - 05:46
Kothoses Rothenkisal
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dunniteowl wrote...
My main computer is not yet back online, though the parts are sitting there, waiting for me to finish putting a roof on my house in 100F + degree heat. When I get it back up and online, I will happily synopsize and collate much of the information. I don't take it personally, the site needs a revamp and I've had many more pressing issues. In the meantime, just do your best. We also have some stuff on SourceForge, but, again, without the main computer, I can't really guide you to that aspect of it from there. I've also been out of touch due to these RL issues, so I have to sort of reconnect with some of the other members as well.
I do think it's an awesome, though incredibly ambitious, all volunteer concept. The site wasn't really designed by me, nor was it really intended to contain the amount of information it does, so it's gotten a bit unwieldy over the years and the accretion of all that stuff. Of course, it was my idea, so I'd think it was awesome. I'm just glad others seem to think so as well.
dno
Thanks for the reply mate, you are right it does look quite massive and I will look up the source forge links too. The reason I am asking is when I come to do my followup video I would like to feature it. I mean it wont reach a huge audience the videos get between 300 and 1100 views but thats not bad considering I have only been doing these for just over a week so it might help raise a little more awareness and get you a few more volunteers especially since I know quiet a few people who might actually have the skills you are looking for.
When you get your new PC back online, give me a shout I might be able to help you organise the information there are little better so its easier to access. Plus I know a few people who might be able to help get word out to a much wider audience for you.
Good luck with the roof issues aswell dude that sounds horrible and I hope things settle back to normal for you as soon as possible.
Modifié par Kothoses Rothenkisal, 09 août 2011 - 05:47 .
#17
Posté 09 août 2011 - 03:37
nicethugbert
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Game companies know that community is here. But, they want to construct and manage the community to maximize profits. It seems that they have decided that games such as the NWN series are not the most profitable. I suspect that they see profit in following a business model similar to that used by movies. They want to go the block buster route where they make the majority of their profit on initial release. The public may be bringing this down upon themselves with their preference for newness. Why make a game with 8 expansions when you can make 3 games with three expansions thereby capitalizing on the newness factor of each "game" in the series?
I think in order for us to get the game we want we will have to express through constructive criticism to game companies how their offerings fall short. Or, well have to wait on the open source community to make the tools and platform we want. If an open source game achieves wide spread success on a low budget, then game companies will use that as a foil to claim that their product is better.
I think in order for us to get the game we want we will have to express through constructive criticism to game companies how their offerings fall short. Or, well have to wait on the open source community to make the tools and platform we want. If an open source game achieves wide spread success on a low budget, then game companies will use that as a foil to claim that their product is better.
#18
Posté 09 août 2011 - 03:57
dunniteowl
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Look forward to collaborating. And I believe NTB is correct in that, if an open source toolset/gaming platform achieves any amount of success on what amounts to a non-existant budget, then "professional" gaming development could adopt and make the claim that theirs is better because, because... (insert catchy cliche-like phraseology here.)
dno
dno
#19
Posté 09 août 2011 - 04:18
foil-
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dunniteowl wrote...
My main computer is not yet back online, though the parts are sitting there, waiting for me to finish putting a roof on my house in 100F + degree heat.
dno
Do it at night. Sheesh, I thought that should have been obvious for you!
Redoing the shingles or a full-on new roof?
Disclaimer: Don't work at night. Dangerous. Unless you can find some child labour, then business as usual.
Modifié par foil-, 09 août 2011 - 04:19 .
#20
Posté 09 août 2011 - 04:37
kamal_
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^^^ My 6 Int Half Orc barbarian is saving his gold up so he can spelljam to the sun. At night.
#21
Posté 09 août 2011 - 08:12
dunniteowl
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I have lights. I had to strip it down to the boarding and am now finished repapering (underlayment) and am starting shingling. I've never done it before, but working at night, once I've got the edges done shouldn't be too bad. However, I also have to figure out how to seam up against the valley, the dormer, the hip portion of my roof. It's a pretty complex roof. And I also have to put in three skylights, cover the chimney stack and several roof vents and attic fans. None of which I've ever done.
It's not rocket science, but I have to figure it all out as I am doing it. It's exhausting and some of it does have to be done in the light of day. And there's a portion of the day where I have to do the domestic stuff and get all that house stuff done.
dno
It's not rocket science, but I have to figure it all out as I am doing it. It's exhausting and some of it does have to be done in the light of day. And there's a portion of the day where I have to do the domestic stuff and get all that house stuff done.
dno
#22
Posté 09 août 2011 - 08:47
painofdungeoneternal
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I heard the gnomes that powered the old bioware forums were laid off since some hackers were stealing passwords, you might want to hire them. ( prolly work for your cooking even )
#23
Posté 10 août 2011 - 04:34
Kothoses Rothenkisal
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Failing gnomes, go for the Wendersnaven that is an untapped exploitable workforce waiting to happen
#24
Posté 10 août 2011 - 04:40
Kothoses Rothenkisal
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nicethugbert wrote...
Game companies know that community
is here. But, they want to construct and manage the community to
maximize profits. It seems that they have decided that games such as
the NWN series are not the most profitable. I suspect that they see
profit in following a business model similar to that used by movies.
They want to go the block buster route where they make the majority of
their profit on initial release. The public may be bringing this down
upon themselves with their preference for newness. Why make a game with
8 expansions when you can make 3 games with three expansions thereby
capitalizing on the newness factor of each "game" in the series?
I
think in order for us to get the game we want we will have to express
through constructive criticism to game companies how their offerings
fall short. Or, well have to wait on the open source community to make
the tools and platform we want. If an open source game achieves wide
spread success on a low budget, then game companies will use that as a
foil to claim that their product is better.
dunniteowl wrote...
Look forward to collaborating. And I believe NTB is correct in that, if an open source toolset/gaming platform achieves any amount of success on what amounts to a non-existant budget, then "professional" gaming development could adopt and make the claim that theirs is better because, because... (insert catchy cliche-like phraseology here.)
dno
While you both may well have a very valid point, one can look at the success of Minecraft (Which is perhaps the biggest indiegaming success story of recent times ) and then look at what the so called triple A studios are doing to try and go after that audience.......
The sound of crickets and silence is profound here. There are plenty of ways companies could monetise this a small fee for use of the login servers and regular expansions providing new content for builders to use is the first one that springs to mind. Certainly there are options if the monetisation was a problem and there are answers if popularity is the question.
Which leaves me wondering if perhaps there is just a willingness amongst large and medium developers to simply ignore the community content market. Cryptic are the only ones that have embraced it and far from holding them us an evangelical saviours of the market its clear they did so more in an effort to cover up for their games short comings in the case of STO.
There has to be a way to reach the ears of larger developement studios, Bioware shipped a full dev toolkit with DA:0 Sadly it was not as popular as either of the NWN toolsets due to complexity and more importantly lack of multiplayer support. If Dragon Age 2 had NWN type multiplayer support most of us would still be playing it still buying DLC with new assets in and more, in my opinion
#25
Posté 10 août 2011 - 05:11
0100010
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foil- wrote...
dunniteowl wrote...
My main computer is not yet back online, though the parts are sitting there, waiting for me to finish putting a roof on my house in 100F + degree heat.
dno
Do it at night. Sheesh, I thought that should have been obvious for you!
Redoing the shingles or a full-on new roof?
Disclaimer: Don't work at night. Dangerous. Unless you can find some child labour, then business as usual.
Ha.. dunniteowl lives in Texas (at least I assume that is still the case) . Last week it was 111-113 during the day.. it was (and is still) 100+ at night.
