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Mage v. Templar Ending (Spoilers) - Still Can't Decide


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#1
London

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This past month I came back to DA2 to play a 2nd playthrough.  After finishing both kinds of storylines, I'm having a hard time figuring out which storyline is "better" to me.

My first Rogue Hawke sided with the mages, and was one of those people who was very loyal to family & friends.  I was unable to side with the Templars as I was romancing Anders and Bethany was in the Circle.  Going through the story in this way felt appropriate.

The consequences though weren't as I'd hoped.  It seems that going through this path, I was able to stand up for the mages and make Bethany/Anders happy, but as a result we all became outcasts.  This path kind of ruined Aveline's life, as now she is also on the run from Kirkwall (I hope at least Donnic came with her).  Also at the time I thought Sebastian was coming across as belligerent, but I can see how he felt Hawke betrayed him when he asked if Hawke would have cared if he was in the Chantry when Anders blew it up.  If Sebastian was in the Chantry, and Hawke allowed Anders to live, there would have been no justice for his death.  Also Aveline seemed to still want to bring Anders to account for his crimes for what he'd done, but instead I was leading him out of Kirkwall to avoid punishment.  Would my Hawke had done differently if Bethany or someone else was killed in the Chantry?  I'm having a hard time reconciling that.

My second Rogue Hawke was sympathetic to the mages, and loved Bethany, but sided with the Templars.  When he met Leliana, she commented that if Kirkwall fell to mages, the rest of Thedas would follow.  He had this primarily in mind when it came to siding with the crazy Meredith.  He also had in mind all of the nobles begging him to run for Vicount, but all the advice from Alistair and others that he'd need Templar support to accomplish this.  He felt if he did become Vicount, he'd be able to influence Mage-friendly changes, such as allowing family visits at the very least.

The end-trip while siding with Meredith felt really horrible.  I was part of the army going on the agressive, condemning innocent, law-abiding Circle mages to their deaths just so Meredith could make a political statement.  I already killed Anders in retribution, but that was not enough.  Though I made up with Bethany in the end and protected her, I participated in an assault that killed many of her friends.  I tried to justify this that I could keep a closer eye on Meredith so that I could prevent the worst injustices (saving some mages here and there, saving Bethany) but I allowed Bethany's life to be at risk in the time frame I was not with her. 

Though this felt horrible, I felt the ending was also a mixed bag.  I found it troubling that my Hawke became a symbol for oppression of mages.  I was hoping that by becoming Vicount, and working with Cullen (who I am assuming would have stepped in as Knight-Commander) and Aveline (who'd still happily be Captain of the Guard) I would have enough influence to encourage positive changes for the mages, while still keeping the general populace in check.  I know a lot of the nobles/templars in the game mentioned having children who were mages, who'd probably embrace rules that would allow those family relationships to be more in tact.  Also with the Chantry completely destroyed, my Vicount would have more liberty to encourage these types of changes since the Chantry influence would temporarily be limited as they had to rebuild.

In my "fairy-tale" vision of this ending, Bethany could start dating Sebastian (after Legacy), she could become an Enchanter in the Circle that was less oppressive/hostile, and Kirkwall could have been viewed as a positive, if moderate, place to be a mage.  I'd then give Isabela her Ship and everyone would be happy not to have to leave their home. 

It just seems that the Templar route felt like overall the "Happier ending" unless you were in love with Anders.  But I still felt bad getting to the ending on that path.

Modifié par SebastianDA, 07 août 2011 - 04:20 .


#2
GavrielKay

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SebastianDA wrote...
I was hoping that by becoming Vicount, and working with Cullen (who I am assuming would have stepped in as Knight-Commander) and Aveline (who'd still happily be Captain of the Guard) I would have enough influence to encourage positive changes for the mages, while still keeping the general populace in check.


I don't think it is possible to talk the Chantry into "positive" changes for the mages.  Especially once word gets out that it was a mage who destroyed the Chantry.  If you want to play it that way, then go for it.  But realistically, the Chantry hasnt listened to anyone in nearly 1000 years, they're not likely to start just because Hawke says so.

#3
EmperorSahlertz

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They havn't listened cause there had been no reason to listen. There are reason to listen now, and they are pressing.

#4
Rifneno

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SebastianDA wrote...

Though this felt horrible, I felt the ending was also a mixed bag.  I found it troubling that my Hawke became a symbol for oppression of mages.  I was hoping that by becoming Vicount, and working with Cullen (who I am assuming would have stepped in as Knight-Commander) and Aveline (who'd still happily be Captain of the Guard) I would have enough influence to encourage positive changes for the mages, while still keeping the general populace in check.


:blink:  How did you think murdering a ton of mages wouldn't make you a symbol of their persecution?  Aveline has nothing to do with mages except for turning in apostates, and Cullen was a total hardliner just not a monster like Meredith.  Any influence would be minimal at best.

Did you know that General Custer publicly opposed the government's anti-Indian policies?  In fact he nearly lost his post because of his testimony about abuses on Indian reservations.  But everyone remembers him, and rightfully so, as the guy who killed them by the tribeful.  The lesson here is that you can forget about being viewed favorably by a minorty after butchering an assload of them.  Mass murder tends to trump all else.

#5
Out to Lunch

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I felt railroaded into siding with the mages every time except one because of the RoA. If it had been Orsino or some of his mages that decided to start the uprising after the bombing, I probably would have sided with the templars by default. Those mages are not ready to be out in the world without some survival training. Having them on the loose, terrified seems like a disaster. But I just don't feel comfortable supporting the murder of innocents, especially when there is no 'for the greater good' to it. Kirkwall was not in danger until Meredith involked the RoA so the idea that sometimes you have to sacrifice some to save more didn't apply.

On a side note, the one templar playthrough I did was as a blood mage. I figured if I was going to go that route I might as well get some morbid pleasure from it. Having all the templars taking a knee to a blood mage may not impact the story but I got off on it.

#6
dragonflight288

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Hmm. The Templar ending I think makes more sense if you play as a mage, so Meredith would have more reason to suspect you of influencing things.

Personally, when you play through the mage ending, (after the latest update on the xbox 360) I got to fight along several mages who weren't using blood magic and weren't abominations in the city and the docks, and they didn't attack me. Rather they were cheering once the battle was over that the Champion was helping them.

those mages were never in the gallows so when many mages escape the slaughter and spread news that the templars could be defied, it just seems more realistic to me.

#7
EmperorSahlertz

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I don't think the ending in DA2 is supposed to make you feel comfortable, no matter which side you pick, to be honest...

#8
WhiteKnyght

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Side with the Mages.

Sure they can be dangerous, but the profiling and persecution of every mage for actions they have no involvement with is just horrible.

Think of it this way. The Templars are like the ****s and Meredith is Hitler.

#9
LobselVith8

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SebastianDA wrote...

It just seems that the Templar route felt like overall the "Happier ending" unless you were in love with Anders.  But I still felt bad getting to the ending on that path.


Murdering hundreds of men, women, and children who are innocent of Anders' actions is the happier ending? Image IPB

#10
IanPolaris

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LobselVith8 wrote...

SebastianDA wrote...

It just seems that the Templar route felt like overall the "Happier ending" unless you were in love with Anders.  But I still felt bad getting to the ending on that path.


Murdering hundreds of men, women, and children who are innocent of Anders' actions is the happier ending? Image IPB


Of course it is.  Mages aren't really people after all.  Just ask many of the above posters and thus shouldn't be regarded as "real" human beings.  Slaughter away for the good of Thedas.  Templars HO!

-Polaris

#11
Rifneno

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IanPolaris wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

SebastianDA wrote...

It just seems that the Templar route felt like overall the "Happier ending" unless you were in love with Anders.  But I still felt bad getting to the ending on that path.


Murdering hundreds of men, women, and children who are innocent of Anders' actions is the happier ending? Image IPB


Of course it is.  Mages aren't really people after all.  Just ask many of the above posters and thus shouldn't be regarded as "real" human beings.  Slaughter away for the good of Thedas.  Templars HO!

-Polaris


Plus, you can't save any if you side with them.  But if you kill a whole bunch of them, you can take surrender from 3 (who will probably be made tranquil).  Hail, Knight-Commander Stalin!

#12
Erani

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I tried to side with the Templars once but just couldn't do it. It just...doesn't make any sense to me.:bandit:

#13
kyles3

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Out to Lunch wrote...

I felt railroaded into siding with the mages every time except one because of the RoA. If it had been Orsino or some of his mages that decided to start the uprising after the bombing, I probably would have sided with the templars by default. Those mages are not ready to be out in the world without some survival training. Having them on the loose, terrified seems like a disaster. But I just don't feel comfortable supporting the murder of innocents, especially when there is no 'for the greater good' to it. Kirkwall was not in danger until Meredith involked the RoA so the idea that sometimes you have to sacrifice some to save more didn't apply.


This is something I think the writers bungled pretty badly if they were going for what I think they were going for. Having Meredith call for the Rite before you're given the choice to side with her removes any and all moral ambiguity from the decision. Choosing to participate in the slaughter of innocents is not a "grey" choice, it's joining the black hats.

Not that there's anything wrong with joining the black hats, if that's the sort of character you were playing. But otherwise the game's Big Choice is a no-brainer. When Meredith calls for the Rite, it is no longer reasonable to side with the templars. At that point one side becomes good and the other evil, and that seemed to be something the game had been trying to avoid.

#14
EmperorSahlertz

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None of the sides are clearly good or evil, otherwise we wouldn't have this discussion.

#15
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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Depends on one's opinion of "happy ending". Becoming Viscount doesn't appeal to me, since I'd become the ruler of a pretty useless dump of a town anyway. And I can't really bring myself to side with the templars no matter how batsh*t crazy some of the mages are, because in doing so I would continue to support a miserably failed system riddled with unforgivable incompetance and the rule of Lawful stupid. Thus, I personally find it a "happier ending", for me at least, to help everyone's chickens come home to roost. And let everyone reap what they have sown.

And of course, going on the run means leaving Kirkwall behind for good, something I've been wanting to do since Act 1. Couldn't stand another minute in the cesspool. Sailing off with isabella and Anders sounds like a pretty awesome ending to me. :)

#16
KotorEffect3

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I always side with the mages period. The circle didn't blow up the chantry, Anders did. I think Meredith was just looking for an excuse to invoke the Right of Anulment and the Chantry blowing up gave that excuse to her. I never did like Greagor in DAO but I have found new respect for him because he never abused his power like Meredith did and he actualy gave the Fereldan circle some leeway.

#17
Dave of Canada

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Erani wrote...

I tried to side with the Templars once but just couldn't do it. It just...doesn't make any sense to me.:bandit:


I feel the same when siding with mages.

#18
IanPolaris

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

None of the sides are clearly good or evil, otherwise we wouldn't have this discussion.


You are one of those that refuse to admit that the mages have any moral standing whatsoever so I guess this would be hard for you to grok so I will try to explain it.

Meredith called for the slaighter of a group of people that had nothing to do with the destruction of the Cathedral while ignoring the obviously guilty party in front of her.

Whatever you feel about mages, that is morally indefensible.  If you join the templars at that point, you are joining the black hats.

-Polaris

Edit:  Dave of Canada, the reply applies to you too.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 08 août 2011 - 12:01 .


#19
IanPolaris

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[dp]

#20
EmperorSahlertz

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No I'm not.

#21
KotorEffect3

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IanPolaris wrote...

Meredith called for the slaighter of a group of people that had nothing to do with the destruction of the Cathedral while ignoring the obviously guilty party in front of her.

Whatever you feel about mages, that is morally indefensible.  If you join the templars at that point, you are joining the black hats.

-Polaris

Edit:  Dave of Canada, the reply applies to you too.



That is how I view it.  One mage was responsible for what happened and he was standing right there in front of her.  Meredith could have executed Anders on the spot and I doubt anyone would have objected but instead she decided she wanted slaughter every other mage that had NOTHING  to do with the Chantry blowing up.  Even her own Templars thought she was going to far.

#22
IanPolaris

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No I'm not.


Could have fooled me.  I seem to rememeber someone very much like you defending Cullen's statement that mages were weapons and not people and couldn't be treated as people.

I guess it was someone else?

-Polaris

#23
CrimsonZephyr

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Oh here we go again...

#24
IanPolaris

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CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Oh here we go again...


Either mages are human beings (and elves) with human rights or they aren't.  This isn't going away.

-Polaris

#25
EmperorSahlertz

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IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No I'm not.


Could have fooled me.  I seem to rememeber someone very much like you defending Cullen's statement that mages were weapons and not people and couldn't be treated as people.

I guess it was someone else?

-Polaris

Nope, that is me. I'm still not the one joinning the black hats though.