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[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You're acting as though Hawke hasn't shown his ability to kill multiple templars throughout the storyline. For all his faults, Hawke is exceptionably good at killing - templars included.

Except that said sister is willingly taking that risk to protect her family from inprisonment or execution and that Hawke has friends in the Templar Order that will must likely keep her safe?

Yes Hawke can kill a SMALL group of Templars with 3  ALLIES*if they soloed against them they''d be dead* but against two WHOLE armies and alone they'd be dead before they could lift they're sword.

I don't care if Bethany is willing to take that risk, because it makes Hawke seem sub-human to abandon her to a system where he knows full well that templars are making mages tranquil despite it being against Chantry law. You seem to think that templars will magically protect her from this, but I wouldn't trust Knight-Captain "mages can't be treated like people and are weapons" Cullen to watch my cat for an afternoon, much less my little mage sister.

There are two templars we see in the scene, not an army of them - and all Hawke does to protect his sister from them is absolutely nothing. I guess the wealth from the Deep Roads meant more than protecting his sister's humanity.

[EmperorSahlertz]

He doesn't abandon her, he lets her make her choice, and he respects it. He can still protect her, but in a limited role. Instead he has to put his trust in Templars like Thrask and Cullen.

[CrimsonZephyr]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

He doesn't abandon her, he lets her make her choice, and he respects it. He can still protect her, but in a limited role. Instead he has to put his trust in Templars like Thrask and Cullen.

Thrask strikes me as an old-timer Templar whose views are no longer represented by the Order as of Meredith's ascension as KC. You know the type, the old soldier with personal and professional integrity lost in the current era of corruption. Unfortunately, he also strikes me as a guy who doesn't really have a lot of power with the Templars and would be overruled a lot. As for his judgement, I also have to call that into question. He trusts Grace, of all people, and holds Bethany, Neutral Good incarnate, hostage. The idiocy of that is too monumental to properly describe.

As for Cullen, it's easy to put him on a pedestal because the Templar Order in Kirkwall is so brutal, but remember that this is the guy who viewed mages as mere things, resources rather than people. That kind of distinction allows for a lot of abuse and he doesn't exactly take a stand until most of the mages in Kirkwall, and quite a lot of Templars, have already been killed. Too little too late.

[Out to Lunch]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You're acting as though Hawke hasn't shown his ability to kill multiple templars throughout the storyline. For all his faults, Hawke is exceptionably good at killing - templars included.

Except that said sister is willingly taking that risk to protect her family from inprisonment or execution and that Hawke has friends in the Templar Order that will must likely keep her safe?

Yes Hawke can kill a SMALL group of Templars with 3  ALLIES*if they soloed against them they''d be dead* but against two WHOLE armies and alone they'd be dead before they could lift they're sword.

I don't care if Bethany is willing to take that risk, because it makes Hawke seem sub-human to abandon her to a system where he knows full well that templars are making mages tranquil despite it being against Chantry law. You seem to think that templars will magically protect her from this, but I wouldn't trust Knight-Captain "mages can't be treated like people and are weapons" Cullen to watch my cat for an afternoon, much less my little mage sister.

There are two templars we see in the scene, not an army of them - and all Hawke does to protect his sister from them is absolutely nothing. I guess the wealth from the Deep Roads meant more than protecting his sister's humanity.

So you're upset that you couldn't play a stupid Hawke and ruin the whole game?

Let's say Hawke and Bethany took out the Templars, what then? One of those guys is the second in command of an order run by a woman with an iron fist. You think she would just let that go? No amount of bribe money could get Hawke out of that situation. The family would have to flee Kirkwall as wanted criminals. If captured they would probably be murdered on the spot, so Hawke's impulsive act just killed the whole family. It also ruined the story bioware wrote because Hawke can't become champion or be there to witness the beginning of the mage rebellion.
 
Hawke did what was best under the circumstances.

[ThePhoenixKing]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

He doesn't abandon her, he lets her make her choice, and he respects it. He can still protect her, but in a limited role. Instead he has to put his trust in Templars like Thrask and Cullen.

Thrask strikes me as an old-timer Templar whose views are no longer represented by the Order as of Meredith's ascension as KC. You know the type, the old soldier with personal and professional integrity lost in the current era of corruption. Unfortunately, he also strikes me as a guy who doesn't really have a lot of power with the Templars and would be overruled a lot. As for his judgement, I also have to call that into question. He trusts Grace, of all people, and holds Bethany, Neutral Good incarnate, hostage. The idiocy of that is too monumental to properly describe.

As for Cullen, it's easy to put him on a pedestal because the Templar Order in Kirkwall is so brutal, but remember that this is the guy who viewed mages as mere things, resources rather than people. That kind of distinction allows for a lot of abuse and he doesn't exactly take a stand until most of the mages in Kirkwall, and quite a lot of Templars, have already been killed. Too little too late.

Very well said. Thrask is definitely one of my favourite NPCs in the game, and despite being foolish enough to take hostages and automatically assume that even a pro-mage Hawke is in Meredith's pocket, I kinda like him. He has this genuine sense of dignity and professionalism to him, and if the Circles were being overseen by people like him instead of Meredith, I'd be more inclined to look upon the system favourably.

As for Cullen, I don't really get why people like him all that much. You're right, he mindlessly obeyed Meredith's orders to have the Circle annulled, he doesn't consider mages as people and he turns a blind eye to all the abuses that occur under Meredith's reign. And even when he does notice them, he doesn't really do anything about it. Ultimately, Cullen is a drone, and drones don't get to be heroes.

On rhe somewhat off-topic topic about Bethany in the Circle, let me just say this. I cannot conceive of a possibility in which Bethany is taken to the Circle that doesn't end with my Hawke storming the Gallows, butchering every templar who opposes her, and then ripping off Meredith's head to use as a chamberpot before freeing her sister. Especially with the Blight defeated and Hawke having been made wealthy from the Deep Roads expedition; it would be a relatively simple matter to sell off all the treasure, rescue Bethany from the Gallows, then hightail it back to Fereldan to rebuild a life there. 

[Shadow Fox]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

He doesn't abandon her, he lets her make her choice, and he respects it. He can still protect her, but in a limited role. Instead he has to put his trust in Templars like Thrask and Cullen.

Thrask strikes me as an old-timer Templar whose views are no longer represented by the Order as of Meredith's ascension as KC. You know the type, the old soldier with personal and professional integrity lost in the current era of corruption. Unfortunately, he also strikes me as a guy who doesn't really have a lot of power with the Templars and would be overruled a lot. As for his judgement, I also have to call that into question. He trusts Grace, of all people, and holds Bethany, Neutral Good incarnate, hostage. The idiocy of that is too monumental to properly describe.

As for Cullen, it's easy to put him on a pedestal because the Templar Order in Kirkwall is so brutal, but remember that this is the guy who viewed mages as mere things, resources rather than people. That kind of distinction allows for a lot of abuse and he doesn't exactly take a stand until most of the mages in Kirkwall, and quite a lot of Templars, have already been killed. Too little too late.

Cullen admits that he used to be more sympathic to the mages until he was captured by them in Awakening.

[IanPolaris]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

He doesn't abandon her, he lets her make her choice, and he respects it. He can still protect her, but in a limited role. Instead he has to put his trust in Templars like Thrask and Cullen.

Thrask strikes me as an old-timer Templar whose views are no longer represented by the Order as of Meredith's ascension as KC. You know the type, the old soldier with personal and professional integrity lost in the current era of corruption. Unfortunately, he also strikes me as a guy who doesn't really have a lot of power with the Templars and would be overruled a lot. As for his judgement, I also have to call that into question. He trusts Grace, of all people, and holds Bethany, Neutral Good incarnate, hostage. The idiocy of that is too monumental to properly describe.

As for Cullen, it's easy to put him on a pedestal because the Templar Order in Kirkwall is so brutal, but remember that this is the guy who viewed mages as mere things, resources rather than people. That kind of distinction allows for a lot of abuse and he doesn't exactly take a stand until most of the mages in Kirkwall, and quite a lot of Templars, have already been killed. Too little too late.

Cullen admits that he used to be more sympathic to the mages until he was captured by them in Awakening.

Indeed, and you know so especially if you played a female mage in DAO.  In that origin Cullen has a hopeless crush on you.  Of course, this also makes my bloodpressure regarding the Chantry spike up even more.  Cullen was and is almost certainly suffering from what we'd call PTSD, and it's the hieght of irresponsibility to put such a person in close proximity with those (even indirectly) that caused it especially in a position of abusable authority.

Cullen simply can't be objective when it comes to mages at least not yet.  He's suffered too much.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

I do wish Bioware had shown more of a transition for him in DA2 regarding his outlook on mages.

I truly think they wanted him to go back to seeing mages as people (albeit slightly more dangerous than normal citizens), but they kinda just pulled it out of nowhere. I think...

[dragonflight288]

I see Cullen as simply this...

Gregoire ordered Cullen away from the Circle in Ferelden because Cullen was being far too harsh of the mages and no longer could be trusted around them. Only a few months after arriving in Kirkwall, Cullen and his Post-traumatic Disorder and his hatred of mages killing all of his friends in the Circle (I'm playing a male mage, so there wasn't a crush. He seemed to respect the mages plight as an observer though) matched Meredith's views of mages. It says this in his Codex entry.

Within months of arriving, he's her second in command.

In other words, she put a man blinded by hatred and has had absolutely no time to emotionally recover in charger of all her templars. Cullen has never had time to emotionally distance himself from the trauma, and only by living under Meredith's cruel and tyrannical regime, very slowly beginning to doubt whether he was following the good of the templars and the people or Meredith's own lunacy, that at the very end, he is forced to accept that Meredith has been wrong all these years.

[Shadow Fox]

IanPolaris wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

He doesn't abandon her, he lets her make her choice, and he respects it. He can still protect her, but in a limited role. Instead he has to put his trust in Templars like Thrask and Cullen.

Thrask strikes me as an old-timer Templar whose views are no longer represented by the Order as of Meredith's ascension as KC. You know the type, the old soldier with personal and professional integrity lost in the current era of corruption. Unfortunately, he also strikes me as a guy who doesn't really have a lot of power with the Templars and would be overruled a lot. As for his judgement, I also have to call that into question. He trusts Grace, of all people, and holds Bethany, Neutral Good incarnate, hostage. The idiocy of that is too monumental to properly describe.

As for Cullen, it's easy to put him on a pedestal because the Templar Order in Kirkwall is so brutal, but remember that this is the guy who viewed mages as mere things, resources rather than people. That kind of distinction allows for a lot of abuse and he doesn't exactly take a stand until most of the mages in Kirkwall, and quite a lot of Templars, have already been killed. Too little too late.

Cullen admits that he used to be more sympathic to the mages until he was captured by them in Awakening.

Indeed, and you know so especially if you played a female mage in DAO.  In that origin Cullen has a hopeless crush on you.  Of course, this also makes my bloodpressure regarding the Chantry spike up even more.  Cullen was and is almost certainly suffering from what we'd call PTSD, and it's the hieght of irresponsibility to put such a person in close proximity with those (even indirectly) that caused it especially in a position of abusable authority.

Cullen simply can't be objective when it comes to mages at least not yet.  He's suffered too much.

-Polaris

And that's why I can't condemm him even after that horrific event he STILL defies Meredith's order to kill the mages that surrendered.That alone tells me that he's a good man.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Ugh GW Bethany's resentment irritated me.

You should be happy you're alive, not snarling at Hawke because he saved your ass.

At least with Carver's snarling it had been there since day one so it was a broken record. Bethany on the other hand...

Actually I saw her resentment as justified:

You've effectively condemmed her to a cursed life*hearing the Archdemon,fighting the effects of the  Taint and being unable to even have a semblence of a normal life because of it* and slow death*via the Taint*.

First time I played the game I didn't use my walkthrough and I didn't take Anders, so both of my siblings died in the game.  My decision for my Hawke end of the game was a gut reaction to Meredith herself.   She should have killed Anders herself right on the spot, then investigated the gallows for more blood mages.  I'm sure by this point Orsino would have destroyed his evidence.  Anders was my love interest and this Hawke did kill him.  Meredith should have locked the Gallows down and waited for instructions from Orlais regarding the ROA.  She is a nutjob and there is no talking to her.

Learning that I could save Bethany being a GW I'd choose her being a Grey Warden every time.  At least being a warden allows her a chance at a normal life living outside of a circle.  She might have the opportunity to even find love as a warden.  Even though love and duty might tear the love interest apart.  At least this way Carver/Bethany have a chance for this.  It was to frightening for me to know of her being in the gallows under Meredith's rule and other questionable Templars.  I think she would have been safe with Cullen as long as she didn't give him any reason to doubt her.  My concern wasn't with Cullen.

As for Carver being a Templar, I can see in his personality that he might walk down the path of abusing mages if given the chance.  Not certain of this, just my gut reaction to him.

This was a very hard decision at first to make her warden.  She may only have 30 years of life, at least she is more free as a warden, than a circle mage.   My family really should have returned to Ferelden after the deep roads so Bethany can become a part of the Ferelden Circle.  I think she would have been safer.  The mages in the Ferelden Circle didn't have it so bad especially during the WH DLC.  Everything in the Ferelden Circle seemed to be going alright.  

If I was allowed the netural option most of my Hawkes would have gone this route.  None of my Hawkes have ever sided with Orsino or just Meredith.  Most of Hawkes do see the need for the Templars.  My Mage Hawke did side with the Templars.  I also did this for my brother because I think he is right on some things and not stupid that is always implied.  I still think he is a douchebag.   For me, making them Wardens is the best option.  This also lets me know I'm not totally alone in the world. 


 

[Rifneno]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

And that's why I can't condemm him even after that horrific event he STILL defies Meredith's order to kill the mages that surrendered.That alone tells me that he's a good man.

I love how people that hold law-abiding Circle mages responsible for apostates can find the compassion to forgive Cullen after he participates in a mass murder. Mage-sided Hawke really should've had an option to tell Cullen he can stuff his "help" and to make his peace with the Maker right alongside Meredith.

[esper]

Rifneno wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

And that's why I can't condemm him even after that horrific event he STILL defies Meredith's order to kill the mages that surrendered.That alone tells me that he's a good man.

I love how people that hold law-abiding Circle mages responsible for apostates can find the compassion to forgive Cullen after he participates in a mass murder. Mage-sided Hawke really should've had an option to tell Cullen he can stuff his "help" and to make his peace with the Maker right alongside Meredith.

Cullen always backs away out of fear in my playthroughs, because if he had tried anything else my Hawke would have sent him flying.
I really can't forgive Cullen his view on mages... I hope he is not a Li compainion in future dragon age games.

[Shadow Fox]

Rifneno wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

And that's why I can't condemm him even after that horrific event he STILL defies Meredith's order to kill the mages that surrendered.That alone tells me that he's a good man.

I love how people that hold law-abiding Circle mages responsible for apostates can find the compassion to forgive Cullen after he participates in a mass murder. Mage-sided Hawke really should've had an option to tell Cullen he can stuff his "help" and to make his peace with the Maker right alongside Meredith.

And I love how you completely ignore that half of the circle turned out to be blood mages and abominations. Pot and kettle much?

That's why I supported the Templars because almost every mage  I encountered in DA 2 ultimately proved the Templars right*and that's not even getting into the fact that the mages I did help with the exception of Ella all betrayed me and proved the Templars right* and that the Circle was temming with abominations and the First Enchanter was not only covering for a crazed murdering bloodmage but practiceing it himself, I tried to think like someone in that situation not as an omnipotent god.

Modifié par Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke, 12 août 2011 - 03:51 .

[dragonflight288]

How about we get a DLC that sets the record straight. Sort of an alternate reality. What would Act 3 be like if Meredith was removed from Knight-Commander.

In fact, let's make a social experiment on it. If the blood mages and abominations decrease, it will show Meredith was responsible for a lot of the problems. If things don't improve....well that would remove a lot of "what if's".

Just before anyone takes that too seriously, I meant that half-sarcastically and the other half seriously.

[Shadow Fox]

dragonflight288 wrote...

How about we get a DLC that sets the record straight. Sort of an alternate reality. What would Act 3 be like if Meredith was removed from Knight-Commander.

In fact, let's make a social experiment on it. If the blood mages and abominations decrease, it will show Meredith was responsible for a lot of the problems. If things don't improve....well that would remove a lot of "what if's".

Just before anyone takes that too seriously, I meant that half-sarcastically and the other half seriously.

Only if Orsino also gets replaced by a first enchanter who doesn't condone blood magic.

[Ryzaki]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
Actually I saw her resentment as justified:

You've effectively condemmed her to a cursed life*hearing the Archdemon,fighting the effects of the  Taint and being unable to even have a semblence of a normal life because of it* and slow death*via the Taint*.

So what she'd better be off dead? 

I don't think so. She's angry because her brother decided to save her life. In that case screw her.She wants to die she can off herself. 

[Dave of Canada]

dragonflight288 wrote...

How about we get a DLC that sets the record straight. Sort of an alternate reality. What would Act 3 be like if Meredith was removed from Knight-Commander.

Responding seriously:
It wouldn't have changed much, Kirkwall was trapped diving straight into hell almost immediately since the start. I'd assume it wouldn't have changed anything if Thomas McNice was the Knight-Commander. We've seen mages pushing since the start, the only difference is that Thomas McNice wouldn't have pushed back as hard.

Maybe this would've made less mages go blood crazy, I can't foresee alternate realities. Though I doubt the mage pushing would've stopped, they yearned for freedom and were ready to do everything to achieve it even when the Circle wasn't considered absolute hell.

In addition to this, Templar under Thomas McNice would've had to still fight opposition from Anders, the Resolutionists, Mage sympathisers and the sudden large number of mages from Starkhaven's Circle burning down.

The alternative ending might've been Knight-Commander Thomas McNice sealing the mages in the Circle until he's told to perform the Rite from the Divine / Andrastian populace of Kirkwall / Thedas (depending on how widespread the news was of the blowing upness) and maybe we'd get Viscount Hawke rubbing his/her temples from frustration.

To have "fixed" the problem, you would have had to remove almost everybody from existence immediately before Act 1. Otherwise, events are set in motion and it's too late. Removing one might solve a small problem, not abolish the large one.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 12 août 2011 - 04:26 .

[Shadow Fox]

Ryzaki wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
Actually I saw her resentment as justified:

You've effectively condemmed her to a cursed life*hearing the Archdemon,fighting the effects of the  Taint and being unable to even have a semblence of a normal life because of it* and slow death*via the Taint*.

So what she'd better be off dead? 

I don't think so. She's angry because her brother decided to save her life. In that case screw her.She wants to die she can off herself. 

What differnce does it make she can't see her family because she's with the Wardens and she has to fight not only for her life but her sanity everyday even Stroud flat out tells you that becoming a GW is NOT a cure for the disease.I'm not condemming Hawke for sending her to the Wardens but I can see why she's angry.

[lokiarchetype]

I thought the decision was pretty straightforward. Do you condone the killing of innocent people or not? If you don't think there is anyway to justify it, then you have little choice but to side with the mages.

If there was evidence that every single mage was guilty, I don't recall seeing it in game, so there's no justification for killing them all. As long as there is a single innocent mage in the Circle, purging it is unethical.
And let's remember that the mages are a civilian population that includes small children and the elderly.

I find it rather concerning that people think there is any moral quandary here. Applying 'the end justifies the means' to taking innocent lives in pursuit of a political agenda is called terrorism.

Modifié par lokiarchetype, 12 août 2011 - 09:40 .

[Rifneno]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

And I love how you completely ignore that half of the circle turned out to be blood mages and abominations. Pot and kettle much?

"Why are you laughing at me? I'm telling you, chemotherapy causes cancer! Every chemotherapy patient I've found has cancer!"

I tried to think like someone in that situation not as an omnipotent god.

Me too. But I'd rather probably die as a good man than probably live as a monster. What's amazing isn't that you embrace the living as a monster, it's that you do it while casting judgment upon the mages who do the same.

dragonflight288 wrote...

How about we get a DLC that sets the record straight. Sort of an alternate reality. What would Act 3 be like if Meredith was removed from Knight-Commander.

Depends, who is KC in her place? Cullen? The mages' lives would still suck, but they'd more than likely suck within Chantry laws. I don't see a rebellion happening there. Exalted March may happen, may not. Karras or Alrik? Probably end the same way as Meredith. Thrask? Hard to say. If he became Knight-Commander, he'd probably have access to those "records that don't exist" showing Kirkwall is mind poison, especially to mages. If he saw them, he'd do everything possible to get the Circle moved out of Kirkwall. I don't know how the Chantry would react to that. If he didn't see them, mages' lives would be much better and a rebellion highly unlikely. But still being in hellmouth, there'd still be a lot more insanity among the mages than usual Circles.

Elthina is another wildcard. Is she really so naive as to think she's being neutral by letting Meredith run amok? Or if she just saving face and she means to be giving Meredith a stamp of approval? How she would react to any of these templars, especially Thrask, is anyone's guess.

But in the end, a non-Meredith KC can't be canon. I don't know how well a non-canon DLC would sell. Darkspawn Chronicles didn't do well if I remember right.

lokiarchetype wrote...

I thought the decision was pretty straightforward. Do you condone the killing of innocent people or not? If you don't think there is anyway to justify it, then you have little choice but to side with the mages.

If there was evidence that every single mage was guilty, I don't recall seeing it in game, so there's no justification for killing them all. As long as there is a single innocent mage in the Circle, purging it is unethical.
And let's remember that the mages are a civilian population that includes small children and the elderly.

I find it rather concerning that people think there is any moral quandary here. Applying 'the end justifies the means' to taking innocent lives in pursuit of a political agenda is called terrorism.

Woah. I've never seen such a display of good ethics from someone with a renegade Shepard avatar. *applauds*

[DPSSOC]

lokiarchetype wrote...
I thought the decision was pretty straightforward. Do you condone the killing of innocent people or not? If you don't think there is anyway to justify it, then you have little choice but to side with the mages.

Which is one thing I don't like about the choice.  Meredith is screaming that there are Blood Mages in the Circle but doesn't offer anything to support the claim.  If they'd given us something, a Senior Enchanter found to be a blood mage who insinuates that there are many many more.  As it stands the only Circle Blood Mages we know about have already fled and many of them we killed.

lokiarchetype wrote...
If there was evidence that every single mage was guilty, I don't recall seeing it in game, so there's no justification for killing them all. As long as there is a single innocent mage in the Circle, purging it is unethical.

You're asking for a lot there aren't you?  I agree that Meredith needed more evidence but proving every last one is unrealistic.  That's like saying police can't take action to stop violent protests until they can prove that every protestor has gone violent, if there's even one who hasn't they just have to twiddle their thumbs.

lokiarchetype wrote...
And let's remember that the mages are a civilian population that includes small children and the elderly.

Which is tragic, but unfortunately the mages don't exist in a vacuum, their actions effect and endanger other innocent people as well.  So if the Circle has become a danger to the city action must be taken and you can't always afford to discriminate.

[Gervaise]

The biggest problem with Kirkwall is the site itself.  Due to its history, it is always going to be a bad place for mages to be.  Why no one in the Chantry, Circle, Templars has thought of this is beyond me.   The Ferelden Circle went bad through the corruption of one senior mage and several disaffected younger ones, and yet was in an area which was spiritually fairly stable (or so I am led to believe but you never know with these things).  The mages in Kirkwall are housed in a former slave prison in a city where unspeakable attrocities were committed by mages.  I think that would class as a high risk situation.
I am assuming that this is the reason this is the eastern powerbase for the Templars.  Instead of doing the senisble thing and removing the mages from the city, instead they increased the number of Templars in order to deal with any problems.  So historically I imagine that the city seems to produce an abonimally high number of blood mages, abominations, etc, and that is why hard line Templars get posted there.
Back in Ferelden, even after the First Enchanter gave the all clear, Cullen was still insisting the Circle should be annulled but was overruled by his superior.  In Kirkwall, Cullen can't seem to make up his mind about the extent to which the action against mages is justified. On one hand he says Meredith is losing it, on another he says mages can't be treated like ordinary people.  He lets her call a RoA when the majority of mages are alive, then sticks up for three when the majority, both guilty and innocent, are dead.  I rather suspect that secretly he approved of the RoA.
Incidentally, having played through the Mage beginning in Origins again, I note from a codex entry from a book within the Circle that the Rite of Tranquility is considered legal for apostate mages.  It quite clearly states that when a mage goes apostate, once the Templars catch up with them, their fate is either to be executed on the spot or made tranquil.
This is why it always seemed a bit odd that Anders  got away with it so often.  Yet, by DA2 we have an apparent Chantry rule that only apprentices can legally be made tranquil, to avoid taking the Harrowing, and once they have successfully completed the Harrowing, they cannot be made tranquil.
So I'm wondering, is this so called law against imposing tranquility, is actually that tranquility can only be undertaken with the consent of the mage before a harrowing and that afterwards it can be imposed as a punishment as determined by the Templars?   You see, at one point Anders says to Hawke, haven't you noticed how many more tranquil there are in the gallows and that these are mages he knows passed their harrowing?  Actually I hadn't because, apart from Feynriel if you fail in your quest and that one serving Meredith, I don't encounter any tranquil in the gallows and the number certainly don't increase each time you visit, although Alain and Grace maintain that several Starkhaven mages have been made tranquil.    If what Anders says is true and large numbers of new tranquil are appearing, then if it was illegal, surely there would be other people who would notice and question this, bearing in mind that many of the mages in the gallows have relatives in the city.  But if it was legal for rebel mages/apostates then people would have no grounds for complaint unless they could prove that the mage hadn't committed any crime.
This throws a new light on Alric.  His suggestion that all mages should be considered as potential apostates and therefore all should be made tranquil was considered too radical.  However, if he was responsible for the number of mages being made tranquil and this was against Chantry law, why did no one question the increased number of tranquil mages appearing in the gallows?   Ella sneaking off to see her mother was a minor crime but technically the moment you leave the Circle, you are an apostate and therefore subject to the law - it would appear that in Ferelden she would have been given the benefit of the doubt but it was a case of Ferelden being lax rather than Kirkwall Templars exceeding their authority.   
In fact if anything, Cullen arriving in Kirkwall helped back up Meredith and other hardliners.  He would recount what happened in Ferelden as the result of Templars being too "soft" with their charges and so reinforces their way of doing things. Clearly that is why Meredith was so keen to promote him.   Thrask incidentally would seem to have gone too far the opposite way.  If you take the aggressive dialogue options advocating being tough with mages when talking  with Sampson outside the rebel camp, he tells you that the mages are openly using blood magic and that Thrask simply turns a blind eye to it.   Basically he has lost touch with why he is a Templar and so it is hardly surprising he allows kidnapping and blackmail to further his cause.

[Rifneno]

DPSSOC wrote...

Which is one thing I don't like about the choice. Meredith is screaming that there are Blood Mages in the Circle but doesn't offer anything to support the claim. If they'd given us something, a Senior Enchanter found to be a blood mage who insinuates that there are many many more. As it stands the only Circle Blood Mages we know about have already fled and many of them we killed.

This assumes that a few blood mages automatically means a magical apocalypse. Which is utterly ridiculous considering one of Hawke's own companions is a blood mage and the biggest law she breaks is wandering through private gardens to admire the flowers.

You're asking for a lot there aren't you? I agree that Meredith needed more evidence but proving every last one is unrealistic. That's like saying police can't take action to stop violent protests until they can prove that every protestor has gone violent, if there's even one who hasn't they just have to twiddle their thumbs.

There's a massive difference between prisoners and rioters. And when there's riots, they don't throw bombs and grenades into the crowds (in any country worth a damn). They use rubber bullets and non-lethal gas grenades. They go to every effort not to kill them, whereas the templars in a rite of annulment go to every effort to kill every last mage.

Which is tragic, but unfortunately the mages don't exist in a vacuum, their actions effect and endanger other innocent people as well. So if the Circle has become a danger to the city action must be taken and you can't always afford to discriminate.

Excuse me while I vomit. ... Anyone remember the Japanese interment camps? During WWII they rounded up all the Japanese-Americans in the US and put them in their own special little Circles. It's almost universally remembered with disgust. A paranoid, racially motivated idiocy that's remembered only a little better than the 86 years of legal slavery. Now if some of the camp's... "guests" escaped and blew up something important, I guess we should have started killing the rest of them right? And please don't give me the "it's not the same thing, mages are dangerous" argument, because it is the same thing. 20th century weapons were, on the whole, far more deadly than Thedas' mages.

DPSSOC wrote...

Which is one thing I don't like about the choice. Meredith is screaming that there are Blood Mages in the Circle but doesn't offer anything to support the claim. If they'd given us something, a Senior Enchanter found to be a blood mage who insinuates that there are many many more. As it stands the only Circle Blood Mages we know about have already fled and many of them we killed.

This assumes that a few blood mages automatically means a magical apocalypse. Which is utterly ridiculous considering one of Hawke's own companions is a blood mage and the biggest law she breaks is wandering through private gardens to admire the flowers.

You're asking for a lot there aren't you? I agree that Meredith needed more evidence but proving every last one is unrealistic. That's like saying police can't take action to stop violent protests until they can prove that every protestor has gone violent, if there's even one who hasn't they just have to twiddle their thumbs.

There's a massive difference between prisoners and rioters. And when there's riots, they don't throw bombs and grenades into the crowds (in any country worth a damn). They use rubber bullets and non-lethal gas grenades. They go to every effort not to kill them, whereas the templars in a rite of annulment go to every effort to kill every last mage.

Which is tragic, but unfortunately the mages don't exist in a vacuum, their actions effect and endanger other innocent people as well. So if the Circle has become a danger to the city action must be taken and you can't always afford to discriminate.

Excuse me while I vomit. ... Anyone remember the Japanese interment camps? During WWII they rounded up all the Japanese-Americans in the US and put them in their own special little Circles. It's almost universally remembered with disgust. A paranoid, racially motivated idiocy that's remembered only a little better than the 86 years of legal slavery. Now if some of the camp's... "guests" escaped and blew up something important, I guess we should have started killing the rest of them right? And please don't give me the "it's not the same thing, mages are dangerous" argument, because it is the same thing. 20th century weapons were, on the whole, far more deadly than Thedas' mages.

Gervaise wrote...

Back in Ferelden, even after the First Enchanter gave the all clear, Cullen was still insisting the Circle should be annulled but was overruled by his superior. In Kirkwall, Cullen can't seem to make up his mind about the extent to which the action against mages is justified. On one hand he says Meredith is losing it, on another he says mages can't be treated like ordinary people. He lets her call a RoA when the majority of mages are alive, then sticks up for three when the majority, both guilty and innocent, are dead. I rather suspect that secretly he approved of the RoA.

I don't think so, I think he was definitely against it but didn't want to defy Meredith. And I say that as someone who hates Cullen.

Incidentally, having played through the Mage beginning in Origins again, I note from a codex entry from a book within the Circle that the Rite of Tranquility is considered legal for apostate mages. It quite clearly states that when a mage goes apostate, once the Templars catch up with them, their fate is either to be executed on the spot or made tranquil.

And they wonder why so many apostates fight to the death and resort to any means necessary, even blood magic and risking possession, to avoid capture. I've said it before, I'll say it again. The Chantry creates the problems it claims to be trying to prevent.

If what Anders says is true and large numbers of new tranquil are appearing, then if it was illegal, surely there would be other people who would notice and question this, bearing in mind that many of the mages in the gallows have relatives in the city. But if it was legal for rebel mages/apostates then people would have no grounds for complaint unless they could prove that the mage hadn't committed any crime.

There's at least one mage in the Gallows complaining Alrik is making her tranquil illegally because she passed her Harrowing. But who are the people going to complain to? Meredith? Elthina? The closest person who might care is a thousand miles away in Orlais.

This throws a new light on Alric. His suggestion that all mages should be considered as potential apostates and therefore all should be made tranquil was considered too radical. However, if he was responsible for the number of mages being made tranquil and this was against Chantry law, why did no one question the increased number of tranquil mages appearing in the gallows? Ella sneaking off to see her mother was a minor crime but technically the moment you leave the Circle, you are an apostate and therefore subject to the law - it would appear that in Ferelden she would have been given the benefit of the doubt but it was a case of Ferelden being lax rather than Kirkwall Templars exceeding their authority.

It doesn't shine a new light on Alrik. He's still a genocidal villain. It only throws a new light on the Chantry for writing such evil laws.

[lucia 123]

What I would like to know is how did Anders manage to escape the circle 7 times and not be made tranquil.  Was it because he had passed his harrowing - therefore it was illegal?    Also - anyone played Legacy and heard Bethany slap him down over the circle? Another  for me.