443 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

lucia 123 wrote...

What I would like to know is how did Anders manage to escape the circle 7 times and not be made tranquil.  Was it because he had passed his harrowing - therefore it was illegal?    Also - anyone played Legacy and heard Bethany slap him down over the circle? Another  for me.

Yes, it's illegal to make a Harrowed mage Tranquil, and Anders was definitely Harrowed.

[EmperorSahlertz]

It's illegal to make a mage illegal based on pure suspecion. It isn't illegal to make a harrowed mage tranquil, if said mage breaks certain laws. It can be used as punishment, and preemptive action.

[esper]

No it is illegal to tranquil a harrowed mage. If a harrowed mage doesn something that deems them unsaveable they are killed.

[CrimsonZephyr]

esper wrote...

No it is illegal to tranquil a harrowed mage. If a harrowed mage doesn something that deems them unsaveable they are killed.

Or sent to Aeonar.

[esper]

I had forgot about Aeonar, sorry. I guess it depends on the crime.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Xilizhra wrote...

lucia 123 wrote...

What I would like to know is how did Anders manage to escape the circle 7 times and not be made tranquil.  Was it because he had passed his harrowing - therefore it was illegal?    Also - anyone played Legacy and heard Bethany slap him down over the circle? Another  for me.

Yes, it's illegal to make a Harrowed mage Tranquil, and Anders was definitely Harrowed.

I believe that Anders is trying to rescue Karl before he is made Tranquil.  I got the impression that Karl informed Anders when he was still in the Ferelden Circle or at the Vigil,  and they have been communicating for a long time, that mages in Kirkwall were being made tranquil against their will and the law of the Chantry.   Anders says that he got to Karl to late.  What we don't know about Karl and the game doesn't give us an indication that the Templars could have had valid reason in making Karl tranquil.  Anders/Justice just assumed he was made tranquil against his will. 

I really believe when Thrask says in the "On The Loose" quest that Alrik was a hard liner just like Meredith, that  it was Meredith that actually put Alrik up to sending those papers to the Divine to make this a law within the chantry that all mages be made tranquil for the common good of all humanity.  Anders, Hawke and company stop this communication. 

By chantry law, the run away apostates should have been made Tranquil or a hearing given on their fate.  Thrask as a templar realizes this, I don't believe that he is as soft as many think because of his own daughter being a mage.   Thrask says he should have taken his own daughter back to the gallows for her own safety.   I do believe that he is a man who does his duty in bringing mages in for their own safety and the common good of the people.  

Once a mage is discovered using blood magic then they should be killed out right.  Many of the Templars are trying to do their sworn duty in accordance with Chantry law.  Which I believe Thrask was trying to do.  When Grace wouldn't restrain herself, Thrask should have smited her and killed her on the spot.   Thrask was trying to help her and because she had learned blood magic and was possessed by a demon, you can't communicate with her and she doesn't seem to realize that Thrask is trying to help her or she doesn't care because of her use of blood magic.  Thrask is trying to get Meredith removed as Knight Commander of Kirkwall Templars.  He should have contacted a Seeker of the Chantry and had her investigated.   

I also got the impression Grace was controlling Thrask when the kidnapping happen with Hawke's family member or love interest.  I don't believe Thrask would have done this without the involvement of blood magic.   

Edit,  I just realized I got the name of the Templar wrong in the quest to bring Grace and Company in.  I can't remember his name.  It's not Alrik but the other templar that you can choose to help Thrask with at the cave entrance.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 12 août 2011 - 07:18 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Why would Meredith put Alrik up to suggesting the Tranquil Solution, and then deny him?

[dragonflight288]

His character description pretty much stated the templars would have considered him a maleficar if he didn't have such disgust and hatred fro blood magic. That was the saving grace was he was already well-known for hating forbidden magics.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Alrik a Maleficar? What? Why?

[Xilizhra]

He's an utter sadist, implied rapist, and has no regard for anyone other than himself. He'd leap on blood magic if he was a mage.

[dragonflight288]

His character description pretty much stated the templars would have considered him a maleficar if he didn't have such disgust and hatred fro blood magic. That was the saving grace was he was already well-known for hating forbidden magics.

Whoops. I was responding to another comment and didn't see this was on the eleventh page.

And yes, if Alrik were a mage, I would see him becoming a blood mage.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Oh.. Okay. Had me a bit confused there. But yes, he certainly did seem a bit psychotic.. Which is one of the traits that seems to be attracted to blood magic.

[dragonflight288]

And corrupt officials with any sort of power. Mage Fraternity to political office, to officer in the templars. Good eggs and bad eggs with all sides.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Yeah.. Its damn hard to make a good omelet these days

[dragonflight288]

Well yeah. Make a mage-egg omelet and you get blood mages and abominations. Make a templar-egg omelet and you get corruption, abuse, and in some cases apathy.

But if we take both kinds of eggs and boil them together, we get a Thrask-kabob of insanity from both eggs. Shame.

[Rifneno]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

I believe that Anders is trying to rescue Karl before he is made Tranquil.  I got the impression that Karl informed Anders when he was still in the Ferelden Circle or at the Vigil,  and they have been communicating for a long time, that mages in Kirkwall were being made tranquil against their will and the law of the Chantry.   Anders says that he got to Karl to late.  What we don't know about Karl and the game doesn't give us an indication that the Templars could have had valid reason in making Karl tranquil.  Anders/Justice just assumed he was made tranquil against his will.

They definitely did not have valid reason in making him tranquil. He says to Anders, "The templars knew I... had to be made an example of." Also, if you kill the templar lieutenant first and loot his body while the rest of the fighting is still going on (once all templars are down, it automatically kicks to cut-scene and then out of the Chantry) you'll find a letter on his body telling you that Alrik had him made tranquil illegally.

[Xilizhra]

Rifneno wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

I believe that Anders is trying to rescue Karl before he is made Tranquil.  I got the impression that Karl informed Anders when he was still in the Ferelden Circle or at the Vigil,  and they have been communicating for a long time, that mages in Kirkwall were being made tranquil against their will and the law of the Chantry.   Anders says that he got to Karl to late.  What we don't know about Karl and the game doesn't give us an indication that the Templars could have had valid reason in making Karl tranquil.  Anders/Justice just assumed he was made tranquil against his will.

They definitely did not have valid reason in making him tranquil. He says to Anders, "The templars knew I... had to be made an example of." Also, if you kill the templar lieutenant first and loot his body while the rest of the fighting is still going on (once all templars are down, it automatically kicks to cut-scene and then out of the Chantry) you'll find a letter on his body telling you that Alrik had him made tranquil illegally.

And that the lieutenant you just killed tried to fight it and was bullied by Alrik into stopping. Rather sad.

[DPSSOC]

Rifneno wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Which is one thing I don't like about the choice. Meredith is screaming that there are Blood Mages in the Circle but doesn't offer anything to support the claim. If they'd given us something, a Senior Enchanter found to be a blood mage who insinuates that there are many many more. As it stands the only Circle Blood Mages we know about have already fled and many of them we killed.

This assumes that a few blood mages automatically means a magical apocalypse. Which is utterly ridiculous considering one of Hawke's own companions is a blood mage and the biggest law she breaks is wandering through private gardens to admire the flowers.

A fair point, however it doesn't have to be "magical apocalypse" as much as "considerable threat to public safety."  There's no justification ever given for Meredith's accusations or her response (imo anyway) which makes actually siding with her at that point difficult to understand for any sane human being.

Rifneno wrote...

You're asking for a lot there aren't you? I agree that Meredith needed more evidence but proving every last one is unrealistic. That's like saying police can't take action to stop violent protests until they can prove that every protestor has gone violent, if there's even one who hasn't they just have to twiddle their thumbs.

There's a massive difference between prisoners and rioters. And when there's riots, they don't throw bombs and grenades into the crowds (in any country worth a damn). They use rubber bullets and non-lethal gas grenades. They go to every effort not to kill them, whereas the templars in a rite of annulment go to every effort to kill every last mage.

Yes today our response to rioters is much more humane than Thedas.  Go back 50 years not so much, go back more than 100 and we're pretty much on the same page.  I do agree that the response is excessive but a response was required and unfortunately the middle ages didn't have a lot to offer in non-lethal crowd control.

Rifneno wrote...

Which is tragic, but unfortunately the mages don't exist in a vacuum, their actions effect and endanger other innocent people as well. So if the Circle has become a danger to the city action must be taken and you can't always afford to discriminate.

Excuse me while I vomit. ... Anyone remember the Japanese interment camps? During WWII they rounded up all the Japanese-Americans in the US and put them in their own special little Circles. It's almost universally remembered with disgust. A paranoid, racially motivated idiocy that's remembered only a little better than the 86 years of legal slavery. Now if some of the camp's... "guests" escaped and blew up something important, I guess we should have started killing the rest of them right?

Please note I did say if.  When the Japanese-Americans (Canadians as well) were rounded up they presented no real danger to the public, yes there was some risk of spies but little danger of them launching an assault from within.  The Rite of Annulment is intended, or seems to be intended, as a means of dealing with the eventuality of a mage Circle becoming a danger to the people.  Now whether or not this was the case in Kirkwall (I'm kind of on the fence myself) wasn't the issue I was trying to address; simply that, when a danger to the public does exist, you must act, regardless of the presence innocents.

[Dave of Canada]

*no specific individual targeted, just in general*

I don't understand why you're all determined to calling people monsters for siding with Templar because you're incapable of understanding why we side with them. I don't understand why you don't side with mages, that doesn't mean you're idiots / monsters / whatever.

Get absolutely sick of the same 5 individuals going "You support rape / slavery / racism / sexism / ect".

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 août 2011 - 02:19 .

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Rifneno wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

I believe that Anders is trying to rescue Karl before he is made Tranquil.  I got the impression that Karl informed Anders when he was still in the Ferelden Circle or at the Vigil,  and they have been communicating for a long time, that mages in Kirkwall were being made tranquil against their will and the law of the Chantry.   Anders says that he got to Karl to late.  What we don't know about Karl and the game doesn't give us an indication that the Templars could have had valid reason in making Karl tranquil.  Anders/Justice just assumed he was made tranquil against his will.

They definitely did not have valid reason in making him tranquil. He says to Anders, "The templars knew I... had to be made an example of." Also, if you kill the templar lieutenant first and loot his body while the rest of the fighting is still going on (once all templars are down, it automatically kicks to cut-scene and then out of the Chantry) you'll find a letter on his body telling you that Alrik had him made tranquil illegally.

Thanks, my game has a habit of cutting to scenes before I can loot the bodies of the Templars during Anders quest.  I can't pick up the loot to gain this letter.  So thanks for the information.

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

*no specific individual targeted, just in general*

I don't understand why you're all determined to calling people monsters for siding with Templar because you're incapable of understanding why we side with them. I don't understand why you don't side with mages, that doesn't mean you're idiots / monsters / whatever.

Get absolutely sick of the same 5 individuals going "You support rape / slavery / racism / sexism / ect".

I can't really see why a person would side with them. You're electing to participate in a full scale slaughter, and more death will only thin the Veil further, which will make problems worse for Kirkwall down the line.

With the mages, you just want them to escape, so you're not forced into killing anyone by siding with them (the game later on has other plans, but that's irrelevant to the roleplaying part).

That said, I don't persecute anyone for going the Templar route. It's just the route that makes no sense to me.

[Rifneno]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Thanks, my game has a habit of cutting to scenes before I can loot the bodies of the Templars during Anders quest.  I can't pick up the loot to gain this letter.  So thanks for the information.

No problem. Here's the entirety of the letter if you're interested:
----------
Ser Bardel,

I have told you a hundred times not to bother the knight-commander with your pathetic questions. She's a busy woman and has no time to nurse you through your crisis of conscience. You are under my command. If you take issues with my orders, you bring them to me, or I will see you stripped of your knighthood!

The mage Karl is dangerous and we must take steps to deal with him and any friends who are assisting his rebellion. I expect this done by next week. If I must see to it personally, I will also find out exactly why you failed to carry out your sacred duties.

The Maker has given us a divine task, Bardel. We cannot fail Him.

Ser Alrik

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

That said, I don't persecute anyone for going the Templar route. It's just the route that makes no sense to me.

Ditto, of course. It's a game. I don't know why so many people take it like they're personally being attacked. They're people playing a video game, it's the characters being condemned.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

@ Rifneno

Thanks for the information. I've never been able to pick up this letter. I really didn't know why Karl was made tranquil.  So it was done illegally?  But, I guess on the flip side Karl and Anders were helping with the mage underground and this had to be their reason to use Karl as an example.  With Anders becoming a warden...was going to make Anders alittle harder to capture.

Wasn't Karl...Anders' mentor back in Ferelden?  It seems to me the templars seperated Karl and Anders on purpose.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 13 août 2011 - 03:23 .

[Ryzaki]

Dave of Canada wrote...

*no specific individual targeted, just in general*

I don't understand why you're all determined to calling people monsters for siding with Templar because you're incapable of understanding why we side with them. I don't understand why you don't side with mages, that doesn't mean you're idiots / monsters / whatever.

Get absolutely sick of the same 5 individuals going "You support rape / slavery / racism / sexism / ect".

Agreed. It's gotten to the point where I just don't debate it anymore. It doesn't go anywhere fast. 

It's not even as fun as debating ME decisions. Too much mudslinging and lowblows and getting worked up over pixels. 

[Dave of Canada]

I'm sure some individuals are calling the characters monsters, I understand that. Though there's quite a few posts which call out the players as being absolute monsters. I've been called racist, sexist, absolute monster and it wasn't targetted toward the character.

Such as one poster saying that he's absolutely disgusted that anybody would side with the Templar, saying we're the reason humanity is failing and such.

... or the other case of saying that they made Alain black to make it so Templar supporters are racists and would side with the Templar to kill Alain.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 août 2011 - 03:29 .