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[Giggles_Manically]

I once said that I could understand where Cerberus and TIM were coming from.
Did not know that one person could be so many bad things at once!

[Rifneno]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

@ Rifneno

Thanks for the information. I've never been able to pick up this letter. I really didn't know why Karl was made tranquil.  So it was done illegally?  But, I guess on the flip side Karl and Anders were helping with the mage underground and this had to be their reason to use Karl as an example.  With Anders becoming a warden...was going to make Anders alittle harder to capture.

Wasn't Karl...Anders' mentor back in Ferelden?  It seems to me the templars seperated Karl and Anders on purpose.

More than that. It doesn't come out unless you're playing a male Hawke and friendly with Anders, but Karl was his lover.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why would Meredith put Alrik up to suggesting the Tranquil Solution, and then deny him?

Well, my thought is that Meredith is in a position of power and it might have looked better coming from someone else than herself.  I think if she had sent the letter herself, her superiors and the Divine especially would have begun to question her ability in being Knight Commander of the Kirkwall Circle.   Meredith wants it all.  Her position as commander of Kirkwall's Circle and also being the Viscount which Hawke stops on all accounts.   She wants all mages made tranquil so her time isn't divided between the two offices.  If the Divine had approved this making it law that all mages be made tranquil then Meredith could have devoted her time being the Viscount only.  She would have had people like Alrik keeping the cirlce in line the way she herself ruled the gallows.

The Divine knew something was up with the Kirkwall Circle for many reasons.  The Divine could send Seekers in to investigate Meredith to see if she needed to be placed into retirement from lyrium addiction. 

The Grand Cleric states the Chantry would never have allowed this because it went against the teachings of Andraste or something to this effect.  The Grand Cleric also doesn't want the Seekers and the power that the Divine welds to enter Kirkwall for the good of everyone.

I don't think it was Meredith that denied Alrik.  I might be wrong on this but isn't there another note/letter/codex entry that says the Chantry would not do such a thing or even consider this?   

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Rifneno wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

@ Rifneno

Thanks for the information. I've never been able to pick up this letter. I really didn't know why Karl was made tranquil.  So it was done illegally?  But, I guess on the flip side Karl and Anders were helping with the mage underground and this had to be their reason to use Karl as an example.  With Anders becoming a warden...was going to make Anders alittle harder to capture.

Wasn't Karl...Anders' mentor back in Ferelden?  It seems to me the templars seperated Karl and Anders on purpose.

More than that. It doesn't come out unless you're playing a male Hawke and friendly with Anders, but Karl was his lover.

I knew that, I didn't want to say it! 

[Rifneno]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

More than that. It doesn't come out unless you're playing a male Hawke and friendly with Anders, but Karl was his lover.

I knew that, I didn't want to say it! 

Well it does cast a different light on things.  People care a lot more about lovers than mentors (well, unless they live like Isabela or Zevran).  Which means the Chantry & templars hurt Anders more.  A lot more.  A lot of people give Meredith some sympathy while she's channeling the spirit of Joseph Stalin because her sister went abomination and that had to screw her up.  Nobody ever mentions what the Chantry did to Anders when they stole his boyfriend's soul for ****s and giggles.  Kind of a double standard, isn't it?

[Xilizhra]

Rifneno wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

More than that. It doesn't come out unless you're playing a male Hawke and friendly with Anders, but Karl was his lover.

I knew that, I didn't want to say it! 

Well it does cast a different light on things.  People care a lot more about lovers than mentors (well, unless they live like Isabela or Zevran).  Which means the Chantry & templars hurt Anders more.  A lot more.  A lot of people give Meredith some sympathy while she's channeling the spirit of Joseph Stalin because her sister went abomination and that had to screw her up.  Nobody ever mentions what the Chantry did to Anders when they stole his boyfriend's soul for ****s and giggles.  Kind of a double standard, isn't it?

Possibly because they assume everyone knows it already...

Oh well. I sympathize with both. I actually sympathize with Meredith more than I do Elthina, to an extent.

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

Possibly because they assume everyone knows it already...

Oh well. I sympathize with both. I actually sympathize with Meredith more than I do Elthina, to an extent.

Then you've got more faith in people than I do. I agree about Elthina though. She bears more blame than anyone else in Kirkwall. Everyone else who was part of making things worse had some mitigating factor to their mental state. Past trauma, insanity idols, pissed off spirits, whatever. Elthina was the only one totally in her right mind, and totally still so full of fail that it probably shoots out like a firehose when she gets a papercut.

[Shadow Fox]

Rifneno wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

More than that. It doesn't come out unless you're playing a male Hawke and friendly with Anders, but Karl was his lover.

I knew that, I didn't want to say it! 

Well it does cast a different light on things.  People care a lot more about lovers than mentors (well, unless they live like Isabela or Zevran).  Which means the Chantry & templars hurt Anders more.  A lot more.  A lot of people give Meredith some sympathy while she's channeling the spirit of Joseph Stalin because her sister went abomination and that had to screw her up.  Nobody ever mentions what the Chantry did to Anders when they stole his boyfriend's soul for ****s and giggles.  Kind of a double standard, isn't it?

Not really considering Alrik was a rouge Templar operating without they're juristricton.

[Xilizhra]

Rifneno wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Possibly because they assume everyone knows it already...

Oh well. I sympathize with both. I actually sympathize with Meredith more than I do Elthina, to an extent.

Then you've got more faith in people than I do. I agree about Elthina though. She bears more blame than anyone else in Kirkwall. Everyone else who was part of making things worse had some mitigating factor to their mental state. Past trauma, insanity idols, pissed off spirits, whatever. Elthina was the only one totally in her right mind, and totally still so full of fail that it probably shoots out like a firehose when she gets a papercut.

I find it hard to believe that Elthina is a bad person exactly, but her incompetence at holding a position of as much power as she has is astonishing. She's great with people but a horrible politician, and those people should only hold high religious office in places where religions have no political authority.

[Jon abcd]

Can't we all just pull a BW and blame all inexplicable stupidity, insanity, and strange behavior in Kirkwall on Corypheus?

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

I find it hard to believe that Elthina is a bad person exactly, but her incompetence at holding a position of as much power as she has is astonishing. She's great with people but a horrible politician, and those people should only hold high religious office in places where religions have no political authority.

I find it very easy to believe she was a bad person. I'm fairly convinced her whole neutrality act is just that: an act. She has to know she can't be neutral. Her staying out of it is, by default, siding with Meredith. But it'll save her from looking like the demon she's supporting. People think she's Mother Theresa and not Eva Braun while still knocking boots with Hitler.

[Xilizhra]

Rifneno wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I find it hard to believe that Elthina is a bad person exactly, but her incompetence at holding a position of as much power as she has is astonishing. She's great with people but a horrible politician, and those people should only hold high religious office in places where religions have no political authority.

I find it very easy to believe she was a bad person. I'm fairly convinced her whole neutrality act is just that: an act. She has to know she can't be neutral. Her staying out of it is, by default, siding with Meredith. But it'll save her from looking like the demon she's supporting. People think she's Mother Theresa and not Eva Braun while still knocking boots with Hitler.

I'm curious as to what you'd think of Sebastian in this context, then.

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm curious as to what you'd think of Sebastian in this context, then.

I only bother to analyze sentient creatures.

[Xilizhra]

Rifneno wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm curious as to what you'd think of Sebastian in this context, then.

I only bother to analyze sentient creatures.

Fun fact: I killed Anders once in an attempt to utilize Sebastian's army for the mages. However, I decided against doing that in the future because I doubted his reliability.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

@ Refneno

Nope, I don't see it as an act. I think she was just trying to stop the Divine from calling an Exalted March on Kirkwall and the innocent citizens in Kirkwall were going to be killed if this occurred. I do think she was lax in her duties by not acting when Meredith was allowing Templars their cruelty to the mages such as whipping, and raping them and of course the real whopper allowing them to be made tranquil against their will and Chantry law.  Like the Grand Cleric didn't know that was going on.  I'd assume a grand cleric would have to sign off on that one.

I also think she should have sent Meredith off to retirement when she started having shouting matches with Orsino in the town square. The Grand Cleric does even say that Meredith was hounding and being cruel to Orsino and the mages, yet she doesn't do anything about it. My impression anyway.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 13 août 2011 - 04:44 .

[dragonflight288]

Elthina: Orsino is not an unreasonable man. I'm certain a compromise can be reached.

Me: ......okay? What about Meredith? Is she so reasonable as to look for a compromise? Ummm....no. She isn't.

Essentially by that standard she was saying, even if she isn't completely aware of it, that Orsino and the mages needed to step down and let Meredith do whatever.

[Shadow Fox]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

@ Refneno

Nope, I don't see it as an act. I think she was just trying to stop the Divine from calling an Exalted March on Kirkwall and the innocent citizens in Kirkwall were going to be killed if this occurred. I do think she was lax in her duties by not acting when Meredith was allowing Templars their cruelty to the mages such as whipping, and raping them and of course the real whopper allowing them to be made tranquil against their will and Chantry law.  Like the Grand Cleric didn't know that was going on.  I'd assume a grand cleric would have to sign off on that one.

I also think she should have sent Meredith off to retirement when she started having shouting matches with Orsino in the town square. The Grand Cleric does even say that Meredith was hounding and being cruel to Orsino and the mages, yet she doesn't do anything about it. My impression anyway.

Except that Meredith herself didn't know what was going on with her Templars half the time either.

[dragonflight288]

Of course she wouldn't. She was too busy meddling in City-State politics to do her actual job.

[The Baconer]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Of course she wouldn't. She was too busy meddling in City-State politics to do her actual job.

oh snap.

[Shadow Fox]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Of course she wouldn't. She was too busy meddling in City-State politics to do her actual job.

And Orsino's too busy covering for a bloodmage to do his.

[Xilizhra]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Of course she wouldn't. She was too busy meddling in City-State politics to do her actual job.

And Orsino's too busy covering for a bloodmage to do his.

Keeping the Circle alive is his job.

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

Keeping the Circle alive is his job.

He's doing a rather poor job at it, all things considered. Trying to cause tension isn't really helping either.

[Xilizhra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Keeping the Circle alive is his job.

He's doing a rather poor job at it, all things considered. Trying to cause tension isn't really helping either.

He couldn't have anticipated Anders. If Irving was in charge, the Circle would have to be renamed the Tranquil Shopping Mall.

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Keeping the Circle alive is his job.

He's doing a rather poor job at it, all things considered. Trying to cause tension isn't really helping either.

I'd hardly cause his speech anything tension inducing when the nobility follow Hawke like lemmings. If he's pro-mage and pro-Orsino, they say "You were right to side with the first enchanter! Meredith's a looney!" (paraphrasing).

But if Hawke's pro-Templar, they change their tune. They're lemmings. Hawke's the only reason they side with any faction.

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

He couldn't have anticipated Anders.

Considering everything brewing and where it was leading, I doubt Anders would've made a difference.

If Irving was in charge, the Circle would have to be renamed the Tranquil Shopping Mall.

Which would've been a rather nice place, I'd be able to go shopping and the tranquil store owners wouldn't judge me upon buying [opposite gender]'s clothing. They don't believe me that it's for [character], it's always Champion this and Champion that.

That and it would've have led to the entire Circle being slaughtered.