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[Dave of Canada]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

They're lemmings. Hawke's the only reason they side with any faction.

Just curious, what do they say when you don't take sides?

[TEWR]

I forget. I think they talk about Hawke being Viscount, though they'll talk about that a little depending on whatever faction you choose

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 août 2011 - 05:34 .

[LobselVith8]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

@ Rifneno

Thanks for the information. I've never been able to pick up this letter. I really didn't know why Karl was made tranquil.  So it was done illegally?  But, I guess on the flip side Karl and Anders were helping with the mage underground and this had to be their reason to use Karl as an example.  With Anders becoming a warden...was going to make Anders alittle harder to capture.

Wasn't Karl...Anders' mentor back in Ferelden?  It seems to me the templars seperated Karl and Anders on purpose.

I don't think Anders was part of the underground until Karl died, because we only hear about it in Act II. Karl's crime seems to be writing letters to his former lover, which doesn't qualify as the "extraordinary circumstance" that would have lead to a Harrowed mage being made tranquil, especially given Alrik's track record for Circle mages complaining that they are being made tranquil illegally, and seeing him threaten a child mage with tranquility and implied rape.

[Dave of Canada]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Karl's crime seems to be writing letters to his former lover

And planning to bust out of the Circle alongside Anders.

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Karl's crime seems to be writing letters to his former lover

And planning to bust out of the Circle alongside Anders.

We know that happened when Karl was already tranquil, and we see from the example of Anders that escaping from a Circle isn't enough to warrant the Rite of Tranquility (who escaped several times before he was made a Grey Warden).

[Dave of Canada]

LobselVith8 wrote...

We know that happened when Karl was already tranquil,

Though we know they were planning to break out, we don't know when he was made tranquil. It's entirely possible that Karl was discovered and made tranquil (iirc, the "branding" looks a lot fresher on Karl?) and used to lure Anders or that he was made Tranquil on the spot after being discovered.

and we see from the example of Anders that escaping from a Circle isn't enough to warrant the Rite of Tranquility (who escaped several times before he was made a Grey Warden).

They were considering it and we're probably dealing with the nicest Circle.

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Though we know they were planning to break out, we don't know when he was made tranquil. It's entirely possible that Karl was discovered and made tranquil (iirc, the "branding" looks a lot fresher on Karl?) and used to lure Anders or that he was made Tranquil on the spot after being discovered.

The branding looks the same as it does on the other tranquil mages, and Anders acknowledges that he lost communication with Karl for a while before the rescue attempt.

Dave of Canada wrote...

They were considering it and we're probably dealing with the nicest Circle.

Anders says the templars might label him as a maleficar and kill him, not that they were considering making him tranquil.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Anders was also being followed in Awakening by one Templar who seemed to be rather obsessed with him. Rylock seemed to be something of a cowboy cop, so her hunt for Anders might not have been one sanctioned by the Tower after he joined the Wardens.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Karl's crime seems to be writing letters to his former lover

And planning to bust out of the Circle alongside Anders.

We know that happened when Karl was already tranquil, and we see from the example of Anders that escaping from a Circle isn't enough to warrant the Rite of Tranquility (who escaped several times before he was made a Grey Warden).

The First Enchanter of Ferelden held his hand over Anders, for whatever reason, and prevented him from being made Tranquil. The Templars would then brand him a Maleficar, becasue that would give them free reigns to execute Anders, since the First Enchanter wouldn't be able to protect him anymore.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The First Enchanter of Ferelden held his hand over Anders, for whatever reason, and prevented him from being made Tranquil. The Templars would then brand him a Maleficar, becasue that would give them free reigns to execute Anders, since the First Enchanter wouldn't be able to protect him anymore.

Being made tranquil is never mentioned as an option for Anders, either in-game or by the developers.

[EmperorSahlertz]

No, but IIRC they do say that Irving held his hand over Anders, even though Anders hated him, and if you then add the knowledge, that to use the Rite on a mage require both the signatures of the Knight-Commander, and the First Enchanter....

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 13 août 2011 - 04:06 .

[lokiarchetype]

Dave of Canada wrote...

*no specific individual targeted, just in general*

I don't understand why you're all determined to calling people monsters for siding with Templar because you're incapable of understanding why we side with them. I don't understand why you don't side with mages, that doesn't mean you're idiots / monsters / whatever.

Get absolutely sick of the same 5 individuals going "You support rape / slavery / racism / sexism / ect".

Why assume its because of a lack of capability to understand?

There's a wide gap between 'understandable' and 'justifiable'.  All actions have reasons and thus can all be understood.  
That's completely separate from justifiable or ethical, though.

Is siding with the templars understandable?  Yes.  Maintaining order, keeping the greater populace secure, 'The Greater Good', 'needs of the many over the needs of the few'.

Is it justifiable?  No.  You're still spilling innocent blood.  You're still indiscriminantly killing civilians of which not all are guilty. 

When this happens in real life it is grotesque and abhorrent, so I'm not surprised people have a strong reaction to it, especially when one considers the current world politicial climate where many tyrannical regimes have recently been/are currently being overthrown and many civilians are being killed in the process in the name of 'keeping order'.

Modifié par lokiarchetype, 13 août 2011 - 06:41 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

It is compeltely justifiable. Some just don't agree with the justification. If a terrorist has hijacked an airliner full of turrists, some finds it justifiable to shoot down the plane, and prevent whatever plan the terrorist has, others find it injustifiable. People are different, and thus have different opinions. If you side against pro-mages though, you are a monster apparently.

[Xilizhra]

I don't believe in monsters. But I believe that the act is monstrous.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

LobselVith8 wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

@ Rifneno

Thanks for the information. I've never been able to pick up this letter. I really didn't know why Karl was made tranquil.  So it was done illegally?  But, I guess on the flip side Karl and Anders were helping with the mage underground and this had to be their reason to use Karl as an example.  With Anders becoming a warden...was going to make Anders alittle harder to capture.

Wasn't Karl...Anders' mentor back in Ferelden?  It seems to me the templars seperated Karl and Anders on purpose.

I don't think Anders was part of the underground until Karl died, because we only hear about it in Act II. Karl's crime seems to be writing letters to his former lover, which doesn't qualify as the "extraordinary circumstance" that would have lead to a Harrowed mage being made tranquil, especially given Alrik's track record for Circle mages complaining that they are being made tranquil illegally, and seeing him threaten a child mage with tranquility and implied rape.

I got the impression that Anders was in the mage underground way before DA2.  Him being in Amaranthine is a good indication that he was, especially if you do the quest from the chantry board to kill the bloodmages in Amaranthine, you get a disapproval from him if you do.  Also his short story from the pdf file you can download and read from the DA2 page. 

The templar Rowland (I think this is the templars name) infiltrates the Grey Wardens to get at Anders in Amaranthine.  Especially once the warden is gone, who would have protected Anders if he was made a Warden.  I would think any warden commander would protect any mage who is a warden against the chantry.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Anders was also being followed in Awakening by one Templar who seemed to be rather obsessed with him. Rylock seemed to be something of a cowboy cop, so her hunt for Anders might not have been one sanctioned by the Tower after he joined the Wardens.

The more I play through that quest, the more it rubs me the wrong way, especially with the warden being involved.  I see Rylock acting on orders from the Chantry.  She does state that Anders will also betray the Grey Wardens which he did when he left the Grey Wardens.  Yet he had reasons too, with the infiltrator from his pdf story.  The Chantry was going after him even though he was a warden. 

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

More than that. It doesn't come out unless you're playing a male Hawke and friendly with Anders, but Karl was his lover.

I knew that, I didn't want to say it! 

Well it does cast a different light on things.  People care a lot more about lovers than mentors (well, unless they live like Isabela or Zevran).  Which means the Chantry & templars hurt Anders more.  A lot more.  A lot of people give Meredith some sympathy while she's channeling the spirit of Joseph Stalin because her sister went abomination and that had to screw her up.  Nobody ever mentions what the Chantry did to Anders when they stole his boyfriend's soul for ****s and giggles.  Kind of a double standard, isn't it?

Not really considering Alrik was a rouge Templar operating without they're juristricton.

I didn't see it this way.  I'd say Alrik was acting on orders from Meredith.

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It is compeltely justifiable. Some just don't agree with the justification. If a terrorist has hijacked an airliner full of turrists, some finds it justifiable to shoot down the plane, and prevent whatever plan the terrorist has, others find it injustifiable. People are different, and thus have different opinions. If you side against pro-mages though, you are a monster apparently.

But a terrorist didn't hihack the circle.  The only crime we have any actual knowledge of at the time Meredith demands that Hawke choose is Anders' destroying the Chantry.  And that one crime for which we have an actual ciminal and actual proof that it happened - Meredith just walks away from.  The circle isn't hiding the guilty party among their ranks.

The circle mages are innocent of everything that we actually know about at that point.  They are not the apostates who've been running around Kirkwall throwing themselves on Hawk's sword.  They are not Quentin.  The hundreds of mages still inside the circle when Meredith calls for the RoA and wants Hawke to help are innocent of everything we know of to that point.

So, you're really killing all those mages because Meredith wants to.  Even the other Templars (including Cullen, who can't be called a mage sympathizer by any stretch) don't think the RoA is necessary.  Elthina didn't think so either.  Only Meredith thinks it's necessary and only Meredith tells you that's the best way to keep peace in Kirkwall.

That's pretty thin justification given her mental state.

[Huntress]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It is compeltely justifiable. Some just don't agree with the justification. If a terrorist has hijacked an airliner full of turrists, some finds it justifiable to shoot down the plane, and prevent whatever plan the terrorist has, others find it injustifiable. People are different, and thus have different opinions. If you side against pro-mages though, you are a monster apparently.

Not one hijack the circle.. well yes The Templars hijack the circle of mages and in act 3! the mages are confined to the CELLS. talk to the templar in the gallows he will tell you why there is no mages walking around.

Siding with the templars and killing mages that are sitting in their cells when Anders destroy the chantry is a monstrous act, yes, the mages in the circle are innocents of what happen and none of them took part of it.
BUT to anyone who side with the templars they are JUST mages and thats why they have to die, right? Is not enough to have them prisioners for the rest of their live, they have to die because the nut case Meredith dictated so.

[Dave of Canada]

GavrielKay wrote...
The hundreds of mages still inside the circle when Meredith calls for the RoA and wants Hawke to help are innocent of everything we know of to that point.

Glad you're capable of knowing this, considering I've been attacked by quite a few enemies called "Circle Mages" by the time we've reached that point. In addition to this, I've seen blood mages everywhere and Orsino refusing to allow any search of the tower for blood magic. Said Blood Mages didn't show up out of nowhere.

The Circle Mages may hide behind innocence, though I'm quite certain there's a lot of them who've been corrupted. The innocent were necessary sacrifice to cut the weeds, I didn't allow Circle Bethany to live either. Had she lived, she'd be made tranquil or worse (assuming she was innocent, which my Hawke doesn't know she is).

Protecting Kirkwall is the Champion's duty, regardless of how much blood must be on your hands.

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...
The hundreds of mages still inside the circle when Meredith calls for the RoA and wants Hawke to help are innocent of everything we know of to that point.

Glad you're capable of knowing this, considering I've been attacked by quite a few enemies called "Circle Mages" by the time we've reached that point. In addition to this, I've seen blood mages everywhere and Orsino refusing to allow any search of the tower for blood magic. Said Blood Mages didn't show up out of nowhere.

The Circle Mages may hide behind innocence, though I'm quite certain there's a lot of them who've been corrupted. The innocent were necessary sacrifice to cut the weeds, I didn't allow Circle Bethany to live either. Had she lived, she'd be made tranquil or worse (assuming she was innocent, which my Hawke doesn't know she is).

Protecting Kirkwall is the Champion's duty, regardless of how much blood must be on your hands.

If even one mage was innocent, then following Meredith is morally rephrensible as is collective punishment.  Bottom line.

-Polaris

[Dave of Canada]

IanPolaris wrote...

If even one mage was innocent, then following Meredith is morally rephrensible as is collective punishment.  Bottom line.

-Polaris

If even one mage was a blood mage, then following Orsino is negligent.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 août 2011 - 08:00 .

[Xilizhra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

If even one mage was innocent, then following Meredith is morally rephrensible as is collective punishment.  Bottom line.

-Polaris

If even one mage was a blood mage, then following Orsino is negligent.

Orsino who ultimately said that Meredith could, in fact, search the tower?

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

Orsino who ultimately said that Meredith could, in fact, search the tower?

After being cornered and surrounded by an army? Too little, too late.

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

If even one mage was innocent, then following Meredith is morally rephrensible as is collective punishment.  Bottom line.

-Polaris

If even one mage was a blood mage, then following Orsino is negligent.

Wrong.  The mages were locked in the tower not by Orsino's orders but by MEREDITH's.  An innocent mage would have no way to know that the First Enchanter should not be followed since the Chantry itself says that circle mages should follow their superiers.

In short, you're wrong.

-Polaris