443 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

I think the situation could have been made grey, if Act 2 dealt with the resistance and the inevitable radicalization within (aka, rise of the resolutionists. That should have been explored), like I so many times whined about.

[TEWR]

I think Orsino's Harvester moment should've only happened for pro-templar people, and the Harvester itself should've found a new way to appear in that area for pro-mage people that didn't result in Orsino killing himself. The only reason they added that boss fight in the game was because they wanted another boss fight.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I think Orsino's Harvester moment should've only happened for pro-templar people, and the Harvester itself should've found a new way to appear in that area for pro-mage people that didn't result in Orsino killing himself. The only reason they added that boss fight in the game was because they wanted another boss fight.

Harvester and the idol should have been removed entirely, imo.

[Dave of Canada]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Harvester and the idol should have been removed entirely, imo.

If not, have Orsino get the idol and use that in addition to blood magic to create his Harvester form. Would make more sense in terms of the established GoA Harvester canon.

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think the situation could have been made grey, if Act 2 dealt with the resistance and the inevitable radicalization within (aka, rise of the resolutionists. That should have been explored), like I so many times whined about.

Oh yeah. An Act 2 where you actively worked for or against the resistance would have been cool. It seems like part of the point of the story was that the Seekers were under the false impression that Hawke purposefully influenced the fall of the Circles. If Hawke had worked for or against the resistance, the Seekers' assumptions would have been kind of true.

Although, its easy enough to say that part of the story should have been changed, too.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think the situation could have been made grey, if Act 2 dealt with the resistance and the inevitable radicalization within (aka, rise of the resolutionists. That should have been explored), like I so many times whined about.

Were it me, I would've made Act 1 show increasing tensions between the Mages and Templars. I would've had Hawke able to meet with Meredith and Orsino, and hear their take on the situation. Characterize them. Show Meredith's incredible fanaticism and zeal, and show Orsino's care for his charges. I would've changed up how some of the Mage-Templar quests in Act 1 were handled, so that they make sense later on in the game (Decimus and Grace, I'm looking at you! Should've done what I proposed in the cinematics thread in this here spoiler section)

In Act 2, I would've shown the Mages growing increasingly bolder, Meredith meeting with the Arishok and conversing about mages (they seem to share like-minded views on how to deal with mages) and connected the Saarebas to the Mage-Templar conflict. I would've had an entire quest line of about 14 side quests (at most) that dealt with either assisting the Mage Underground (by the time of the 14th, you're now its leader) or crushing it.

I used to say it could be done secretly or blatantly and affect Anders staying in the party, but I don't think that would work out well.

the lyrium idol is a bit iffy for me. There are ways I feel it could've been implemented much better for Meredith, but I also feel that it should've stayed at Bartrand's. I could go in depth about what I'd do with the idol if I wanted to.

Anyway, in Act 3, choices in Act 1 could affect what happened in Act 3. I would've shown more of the almost destructive tensions the two factions are having. I would've explored other types of gray areas that could relate to the Mages and Templars (what those are I'm drawing a blank on at the moment, as I'm really tired). 

There's just a lot that needs to be done to DAII to make it actually gray.

[Morroian]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I think Orsino's Harvester moment should've only happened for pro-templar people, and the Harvester itself should've found a new way to appear in that area for pro-mage people that didn't result in Orsino killing himself. The only reason they added that boss fight in the game was because they wanted another boss fight.

They should have done what they originally planned to, have Hawke challenge Orsino when he mentions Quentin. The large majority of people would have fought Orsino knowing he knew about Quentin. 

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I think Orsino's Harvester moment should've only happened for pro-templar people, and the Harvester itself should've found a new way to appear in that area for pro-mage people that didn't result in Orsino killing himself. The only reason they added that boss fight in the game was because they wanted another boss fight.

Harvester and the idol should have been removed entirely, imo.

Lyrium idol I'm iffy on, but the Harvester makes sense for pro-templar characters. Pro-mage people could've seen a Pride Demon tear through the Veil (literally tearing open the boundaries between the two realms) and possessing a mage (NOT Orsino. Dead mage, live mage, so long as it's not Orsino) and casting the Harvester ritual. Since it's a form of blood magic and demons are experts in the arcane arts that are forgotten, it makes sense for a Demon to know what to do.


edit: for some reason, imagining a pride demon slowly tear the Veil apart in that moment makes me laugh

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 août 2011 - 05:10 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Dave
Also possible. Would have been preferrable to what we had.

phaonica wrote...

Oh yeah. An Act 2 where you actively worked for or against the resistance would have been cool. It seems like part of the point of the story was that the Seekers were under the false impression that Hawke purposefully influenced the fall of the Circles. If Hawke had worked for or against the resistance, the Seekers' assumptions would have been kind of true.

Although, its easy enough to say that part of the story should have been changed, too.

I keep thinking about what could have been, and I don't know why.
Just a few seconds ago, I created a Resolutionist character in my head that we interact with, that would have assassinated Viscount Dumar at the end of Act 2.

[Out to Lunch]

Morroian wrote...

They should have done what they originally planned to, have Hawke challenge Orsino when he mentions Quentin. The large majority of people would have fought Orsino knowing he knew about Quentin. 

Are you sure about that? We don't know that he was guilty of doing anything that Hawke didn't do. Hawke gives bloodmage Merrill a free pass and brings her to Kirkwall potentially endangering the entire city. Nothing bad happened but it could have...Hawke's handwave got lucky, Orsino's handwave didn't. Which I think was the point. The mage issue is very complex.

I did think we should have been able to leave harvester Orsino to take care of that area and move on instead of fighting him. Let Meridith have him.

Modifié par Out to Lunch, 16 août 2011 - 05:22 .

[phaonica]

Out to Lunch wrote...

Are you sure about that? We don't know that he was guilty of doing anything that Hawke didn't do. Hawke gives bloodmage Merrill a free pass and brings her to Kirkwall potentially endangering the entire city.

Because Hawke is railroaded into it and can't tell Merril to get lost or turn her in. I don't want to be held morally responsible for decisions that the game made for me...

[Morroian]

Out to Lunch wrote...

Morroian wrote...

They should have done what they originally planned to, have Hawke challenge Orsino when he mentions Quentin. The large majority of people would have fought Orsino knowing he knew about Quentin. 

Are you sure about that? We don't know that he was guilty of doing anything that Hawke didn't do. Hawke gives bloodmage Merrill a free pass and brings her to Kirkwall potentially endangering the entire city. Nothing bad happened but it could have...Hawke's handwave got lucky, Orsino's handwave didn't. Which I think was the point. The mage issue is very complex.

Orsino clearly knew what Quentin was doing. Merrill is not remotely comparable, she's not murdering people and in fact takes sensible precautions when dealing with the mirror.

[Rifneno]

Morroian wrote...

Orsino clearly knew what Quentin was doing. Merrill is not remotely comparable, she's not murdering people and in fact takes sensible precautions when dealing with the mirror.

Right.  That's why he says right after he mentions his connection to Quentin out of the blue (i.e. he has no reason to lie) that he didn't know he was insane at first and that the reason he didn't turn him in when he did find out is because Meredith the Impaler would've used it as an excuse to crush the Circle (and considering she's currently murdering the Circle for another crime that another apostate did...  pretty hard to argue).  I feel bad for any poor schmoe you're on a jury for if that's your idea of clear cut guilt.

[Morroian]

Rifneno wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Orsino clearly knew what Quentin was doing. Merrill is not remotely comparable, she's not murdering people and in fact takes sensible precautions when dealing with the mirror.

Right.  That's why he says right after he mentions his connection to Quentin out of the blue (i.e. he has no reason to lie) that he didn't know he was insane at first and that the reason he didn't turn him in when he did find out is because Meredith the Impaler would've used it as an excuse to crush the Circle (and considering she's currently murdering the Circle for another crime that another apostate did...  pretty hard to argue).  I feel bad for any poor schmoe you're on a jury for if that's your idea of clear cut guilt.

This isn't a jury, I'm free to hold an opinion, no-one mentioned anything about clear cut guilt in terms of modern law. He'd been corresponding with Quentin, he referred to Quentin's work as being horrific or words along those lines.

[Rifneno]

Morroian wrote...

This isn't a jury, I'm free to hold an opinion, no-one mentioned anything about clear cut guilt in terms of modern law. He'd been corresponding with Quentin, he referred to Quentin's work as being horrific or words along those lines.

Yeah yeah. Meredith is sending out death squads to murder unarmed commoners for feeding a starved and tortured mage cousin on the run (you know, from the starving and torturings?), but despite the fact templar supporters are the minority we hear about that maybe once for every ten mentions of Quentin/Orsino. Now is that because the mages aren't committing worse crimes... or because people are too focused on it because it involved Leandra? Yeah, that one. So let me take this opportunity to say: I don't give a nug's ass about the fact Hawke's mother was one of the innocent victims. An innocent victim is an innocent victim. Objectivity. It's a wonderful thing. Now then...

My dear friend,

I have obtained the books you requested. I'll leave them at our usual hiding spot. Please collect them as soon as possible. I would hate to see them in the wrong hands!

Your last letter was fascinating! You have proven me wrong, once again, by doing the impossible. I shouldn't have doubted your resolve, and I hope you will keep me apprised of further progress.

Your friend and colleague,
O

I don't see the word "horrific" there... So what are we going on here to conclude that Orsino was encouraging Quentin with full knowledge of his actions? Considering most necromancers use corpses that are already dead (and it's hard to go two streets without finding a hacked up body, especially with Hawke in town) it's not exactly a forgone conclusion that he was killing women and stitching them together to make a zombie wife. Or are we condemning him because he didn't risk the lives of everyone in the Circle by telling the templars? You know, the ones who Emeric couldn't get to act even though he's the one who told Hawke where Quentin's lair was? Because if that's the case, I have to go back to the whole "people other than Leandra count too" thing.

[Xilizhra]

Perhaps more people are saying that Hawke would be angry about it because it involves Leandra.

Though I'm almost certain the letter was written before Quentin went crazy, because that's also when he was an academic necromancer, and either teaching Gascard or about to, and presumably when he discovered the Harvester thing. After his wife died, he abandoned everything to focus on bringing her back, and I don't think he'd have collaborated with anyone on that.

[Morroian]

Rifneno wrote...

Morroian wrote...

This isn't a jury, I'm free to hold an opinion, no-one mentioned anything about clear cut guilt in terms of modern law. He'd been corresponding with Quentin, he referred to Quentin's work as being horrific or words along those lines.

Yeah yeah. Meredith is sending out death squads to murder unarmed commoners for feeding a starved and tortured mage cousin on the run (you know, from the starving and torturings?), but despite the fact templar supporters are the minority we hear about that maybe once for every ten mentions of Quentin/Orsino. Now is that because the mages aren't committing worse crimes... or because people are too focused on it because it involved Leandra? Yeah, that one. So let me take this opportunity to say: I don't give a nug's ass about the fact Hawke's mother was one of the innocent victims. An innocent victim is an innocent victim. Objectivity. It's a wonderful thing. Now then...

Really so what, I was just talking about Hawke's motivation for fighting him at the end if it had come to that. OK you can role play a Hawke who won't go for revenge but I dare say the majority would.

Rifneno wrote...

I don't see the word "horrific" there...

Its an end game dialogue option just before he turns into the harvester. I just had it come up in a playthrough I finished a few days ago.

[Xilizhra]

Really so what, I was just talking about Hawke's motivation for fighting him at the end if it had come to that. OK you can role play a Hawke who won't go for revenge but I dare say the majority would.

Mine wouldn't. There's far more important things going on.

[dragonflight288]

Were it me, I would've made Act 1 show increasing tensions between the
Mages and Templars. I would've had Hawke able to meet with Meredith and
Orsino, and hear their take on the situation. Characterize them. Show
Meredith's incredible fanaticism and zeal, and show Orsino's care for
his charges. I would've changed up how some of the Mage-Templar quests
in Act 1 were handled, so that they make sense later on in the game
(Decimus and Grace, I'm looking at you! Should've done what I proposed
in the cinematics thread in this here spoiler section)

In Act 2, I
would've shown the Mages growing increasingly bolder, Meredith meeting
with the Arishok and conversing about mages (they seem to share
like-minded views on how to deal with mages) and connected the Saarebas
to the Mage-Templar conflict. I would've had an entire quest line of
about 14 side quests (at most) that dealt with either assisting the Mage
Underground (by the time of the 14th, you're now its leader) or
crushing it.

I used to say it could be done secretly or blatantly
and affect Anders staying in the party, but I don't think that would
work out well.

the lyrium idol is a bit iffy for me. There are
ways I feel it could've been implemented much better for Meredith, but I
also feel that it should've stayed at Bartrand's. I could go in depth
about what I'd do with the idol if I wanted to.

Anyway, in Act 3,
choices in Act 1 could affect what happened in Act 3. I would've shown
more of the almost destructive tensions the two factions are having. I
would've explored other types of gray areas that could relate to the
Mages and Templars (what those are I'm drawing a blank on at the moment,
as I'm really tired). 

There's just a lot that needs to be done to DAII to make it actually gray.

I really like this. It would certainly make the game a lot better and make far more sense.

[GavrielKay]

phaonica wrote...
In the interest of making the choice more gray, what kind of argument might *have* made you question that maybe all mages should be locked up? Do you think it might be an issue that can't be made gray?

The trouble for me was that we have no idea what's going on in the circle itself beyond a possible letter from Bethany and a fair few accounts of abuse by Templars.  There is no reason presented to consider the circle itself guilty of anything. 

They could have shown us other circle mages collaborating with Anders to blow up the Chantry.  Show us circle mages practicing blood magic in secret.  Give us a quest where a circle mage is caught dealing with a demon for revenge on her Templar jailors. 

There's all these hundreds of people whose fates Hawke is supposed to decide based on a bunch of thugs and lunatics that aren't in the circle.  No number of apostates and maleficar outside the circle can give us an idea of how to judge the hundreds of mages inside the circle.

Also, to be gray, I'd have liked to see more reasonable Templars.  Have Meredith be stern but sane, Cullen more recovered from his ordeal and understanding that mages are people too.  Thrask should have been able to work with mages to make things better in the open - as the whole Tempplar order would have to be more humane for me to be able to think about siding with them.

The circle mages would have to be actively doing bad things minus the Templars goading them into it.

[dragonflight288]

That works too. Could easily be incorporated into Etheral's idea.

[phaonica]

GavrielKay wrote...

The trouble for me was that we have no idea what's going on in the circle itself beyond a possible letter from Bethany and a fair few accounts of abuse by Templars.  There is no reason presented to consider the circle itself guilty of anything. 

Fair enough. I was just curious as to whether those of us discussing this, who chose the mage side of the conflict at the end, could have ever, for any reason, been convinced to turn against the mages during the course of the game. To me an important part of what makes DA fun is for the choices to be grey, and I'm sure the devs watch a lot of the active threads, so I think that disussing what might have been a more fun conflict (in this case what might have made the choice more gray) might be of interest to them.

Modifié par phaonica, 16 août 2011 - 06:52 .

[dragonflight288]

The only way I can be convinced to turn on the mages and side with the templars was if I saw indisputable proof in-game before having to make a choice that the Circle is full of blood magic, abominations, and criminals, not a bunch of people simply trying to live their lives to the best of their ability as limited by the templars.

And I'm not talking about apostates either. I mean in the circle itself.

[GavrielKay]

Exactly. The Right of Annulment is supposed to be about the circle itself being irredeemable. That there is almost no chance of innocent mages still surviving in the midst of utter chaos: abominations and maleficar in the circle itself. Suspicion of a few practicing blood mages just doesn't seem to fulfill that requirement.

Anything short of utter chaos that is about to burst out into the street and start affecting civilians should not be enough to call an RoA. The Templars are supposed to be able to handle a few blood mages in the circles without annihilating the whole lot.

The situation in Kirkwall where Meredith just feels stymied in her efforts to stomp out dissension shouldn't be nearly enough. And claiming to be appeasing the lynch mob is even worse.

I'd have to see the circle itself in a shambles with almost no chance of an innocent mage being affected before I'd participate in the RoA.

Also, like Dragon said, the chaos shouldn't be the result of calling the RoA but present before then. If you abuse a mage until they break, it's the abuser who ought to be annuled.

[dragonflight288]

Nice argument. And what do you think about the Divine who about called an Exalted March on her own cathedral because the mages were peacefully protesting the Chantry by not using magic to light candles.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 17 août 2011 - 02:27 .