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Mage v. Templar Ending (Spoilers) - Still Can't Decide


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#51
IanPolaris

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Dave of Canada wrote...

Sepewrath wrote...

Problem with that kind of logic is anyone can use it to justify their actions, AKA Anders. He was doing it for the good of all mages, if he has to kill everyone in a church, Qunari destroy an entire city, the slaughter of the Elves, its all for the greater good. You have to remember, whats good, whose innocent, its all very subjective.


And I can understand where they come from, too.

My (canon) Hawke hates Anders not because of what he did, just that he disagrees with it and it's against his own goals and objectives (keeping the peace, trying to loosen mage restrictions by changing it from the inside). Fighting the Templar wouldn't serve much purpose with his goals, therefore he believes killing the mages will ease it and he'll still hopefully be capable of controlling the situation before it goes out of hand (mage rebellion shows he failed).

Same thing with the Qunari, I mostly agreed with the Arishok. When he questioned what I'd do in his shoes, I pretty much supported him rather than putting my shoes on his feet because that's what my Hawke would do in his position.


Otherwise moral people talk themselves into evil and immoral things every day.  That was the lesson of Nuremberg.  Somethings are just evil, however you try to justify them.  Killing an entire group of people (men, women and childern) for something they clearly didn't do (the guilty party is right there and admits it) is one of those things.

-Polaris

#52
Sepewrath

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IanPolaris wrote...

The point is if BW wanted a REAL "choice" that was "really" morally neutral, then Hawke should have had the option to play Pontios Pilate and walk away from both sides. Not heroic, but at least arguably morally justifiable.

-Polaris

That's not morally justifiable either, your the Champion, yet you walk away like a coward and leave the city and everyone in it to fall to this war between Templar's and Mages?

@Dave of Canada

Well I would hope you can understand, because if everyone thought like you, I hope you would enjoy living in a world of perpetual war. Because that's all that kind of thinking would get you and when the dust finally settles and the world is a broken mess, with nothing left for anyone, then you'll be left wondering what happened to that greater good part.

#53
IanPolaris

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Sepewrath wrote...
That's not morally justifiable either, your the Champion, yet you walk away like a coward and leave the city and everyone in it to fall to this war between Templar's and Mages?


I don't fully agree.  The complaint I have is either back a group of mages who I have reason (esp if not a mage myself) not to trust and really DO seem to have a bloodmagic problem OR back open genocide (which is clearly evil) on a group of people for an act they did not commit.

It seems to me that a morally neutral Hawke should be able to wash his hands of both sides and either walk away or command the Captain of the Guard to put the city under Martial Law and defend the city against BOTH groups.

-Polaris

#54
Dave of Canada

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Sepewrath wrote...

Well I would hope you can understand, because if everyone thought like you, I hope you would enjoy living in a world of perpetual war.


That's the thing, they don't. Not everybody thinks the same and some people have to do decisions that other people people will not do.

Probably why I love Loghain so much.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 08 août 2011 - 01:14 .


#55
Sepewrath

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No way the guard could try and fight both groups, I don't think they could fight either. But Hawke is the Champion, the people look to them as their savior, to just walk away and leave them to their fate, is no better than picking a side. In all three decisions your dooming a group to die, but in that neutral decision, your dooming a group who has absolutely nothing to do with this situation at all to die.

#56
EmperorSahlertz

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Why would the guard defend the city from the Templars? The City isn't under any kind of threat from the Templars. The mages on the other hand...

#57
Erani

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Murder is only murder if it is an unlawful killing... Just saying.. (the annulment was legal)


This also is not clear to me. Meredith had already requested the R.O.A from the Divine before the Grand Cleric died (which I'm not even sure she was supposed to do) so yes normally once the G.C dies, Meredith could assume her authority and order the R.O.A but she had already asked a higher authority (the divine). So either 1) the divine hasn't given an answer regarding the annulment or 2) she said no, since the mages are still alive before Anders blows up the Chantry.
If 1) then even with the grand cleric dead, Meredith still has to wait for an answer from the Divine.
If 2) Then the divine said NO ANNULMENT, and even with the power of grand cleric Meredith's annulment is illegal since obviously the Divine has more power than a Grand Cleric.
So, yeah I'm not even sure the annulment was legal.-_-

#58
IanPolaris

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why would the guard defend the city from the Templars? The City isn't under any kind of threat from the Templars. The mages on the other hand...


Really?  Must have been some imposters then that made themselves momumentally unwelcome in the sewers (to the point where they were attacked on sight) and had DEATH SQUADS that killed people in low-town for any/no reason.

-Polaris

#59
IanPolaris

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Erani wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Murder is only murder if it is an unlawful killing... Just saying.. (the annulment was legal)


This also is not clear to me. Meredith had already requested the R.O.A from the Divine before the Grand Cleric died (which I'm not even sure she was supposed to do) so yes normally once the G.C dies, Meredith could assume her authority and order the R.O.A but she had already asked a higher authority (the divine). So either 1) the divine hasn't given an answer regarding the annulment or 2) she said no, since the mages are still alive before Anders blows up the Chantry.
If 1) then even with the grand cleric dead, Meredith still has to wait for an answer from the Divine.
If 2) Then the divine said NO ANNULMENT, and even with the power of grand cleric Meredith's annulment is illegal since obviously the Divine has more power than a Grand Cleric.
So, yeah I'm not even sure the annulment was legal.-_-


DG has answered this.  I am of the firm opinion that he did a massive posterior-pull, but the official answer is that the annulment is legal (which should tell you everything about the Chantry you need to know) in spite of the cogent points you cite above.  Apparently a Knight Commander can slaughter all mages before breakfest without consequence as long as he or she remembers to have the Grand-Cleric killed first....again per DG not me.

-Polaris

#60
EmperorSahlertz

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IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why would the guard defend the city from the Templars? The City isn't under any kind of threat from the Templars. The mages on the other hand...


Really?  Must have been some imposters then that made themselves momumentally unwelcome in the sewers (to the point where they were attacked on sight) and had DEATH SQUADS that killed people in low-town for any/no reason.

-Polaris

Was anyone but the Carta and Coeterie welcome in the sewers? And they had reasons to attack, that one woman (which obviously constitutes as a threat to the entire city) in Lowtown.

#61
dragonflight288

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Was anyone but the Carta and Coeterie welcome in the sewers? And they had reasons to attack, that one woman (which obviously constitutes as a threat to the entire city) in Lowtown.


There were native Kirkwallers who felt displaced by the large number of Fereldans and wanted them all dead or driven out. They blamed the Fereldans for all their problems.

#62
Erani

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IanPolaris wrote...

DG has answered this.  I am of the firm opinion that he did a massive posterior-pull, but the official answer is that the annulment is legal (which should tell you everything about the Chantry you need to know) in spite of the cogent points you cite above.  Apparently a Knight Commander can slaughter all mages before breakfest without consequence as long as he or she remembers to have the Grand-Cleric killed first....again per DG not me.

-Polaris


:blink::mellow::mellow::huh::o:pinched:

Well then, if D.G says so....

The DA2 epilogue makes me cackle with even more glee then. The Chantry lost all the Circles...:lol::lol::lol:

Modifié par Erani, 08 août 2011 - 01:25 .


#63
IanPolaris

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Was anyone but the Carta and Coeterie welcome in the sewers? And they had reasons to attack, that one woman (which obviously constitutes as a threat to the entire city) in Lowtown.


One woman that supposedly gave a meal to a fleeing relative was such a threat to the entire city that she deserved to be MURDERED with no trial on the spot by Meredith's self-appointed hatchetmen?

...and you wonder why I think your characters are a moral monsters......

-Polaris

#64
EmperorSahlertz

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IanPolaris wrote...

Erani wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Murder is only murder if it is an unlawful killing... Just saying.. (the annulment was legal)


This also is not clear to me. Meredith had already requested the R.O.A from the Divine before the Grand Cleric died (which I'm not even sure she was supposed to do) so yes normally once the G.C dies, Meredith could assume her authority and order the R.O.A but she had already asked a higher authority (the divine). So either 1) the divine hasn't given an answer regarding the annulment or 2) she said no, since the mages are still alive before Anders blows up the Chantry.
If 1) then even with the grand cleric dead, Meredith still has to wait for an answer from the Divine.
If 2) Then the divine said NO ANNULMENT, and even with the power of grand cleric Meredith's annulment is illegal since obviously the Divine has more power than a Grand Cleric.
So, yeah I'm not even sure the annulment was legal.-_-


DG has answered this.  I am of the firm opinion that he did a massive posterior-pull, but the official answer is that the annulment is legal (which should tell you everything about the Chantry you need to know) in spite of the cogent points you cite above.  Apparently a Knight Commander can slaughter all mages before breakfest without consequence as long as he or she remembers to have the Grand-Cleric killed first....again per DG not me.

-Polaris

I can't even begin to describe to you, how stupid you just made yourself sound. Why on earth would the Knight-Commander "have the Grand Cleric" killed? Or are you still of that assumption that all Templars only think about killing mages all the time?
The Knight-Commanders know that the Grand Clerics are their superiors, and they follow their orders. Secondly, if they actually do have a Grand Cleric killed, do you actually think that it will go without repercussions if discovered?

#65
Erani

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^ Polaris, and the relative had been whipped and starving.

#66
EmperorSahlertz

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IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Was anyone but the Carta and Coeterie welcome in the sewers? And they had reasons to attack, that one woman (which obviously constitutes as a threat to the entire city) in Lowtown.


One woman that supposedly gave a meal to a fleeing relative was such a threat to the entire city that she deserved to be MURDERED with no trial on the spot by Meredith's self-appointed hatchetmen?

...and you wonder why I think your characters are a moral monsters......

-Polaris

No, but killing her obviosuly makes the Templars a threat to the ENTIRE CITY.

She was however housing and aiding a known fugitive, which could probably constitute capital punishment back then.

#67
dragonflight288

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Cullen

I know some templars who discuss such things with glee


Alrik

That's right. Once you are tranquil, you'll do anything I ask.


Thrask

I want to solve this peacefully. If Ser Kerras arrives, it'll be a bloodbath.


In addition to the Chantry looking more at religious fervor and zeal before looking at the morality of the templars they recruit....not a pretty picture for the templar order as a whole.

#68
IanPolaris

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I can't even begin to describe to you, how stupid you just made yourself sound. Why on earth would the Knight-Commander "have the Grand Cleric" killed? Or are you still of that assumption that all Templars only think about killing mages all the time?


Merdith certainly was like this and so were most of the Templars that followed her (even Cullen).  Given how adamant (esp by ActIII) that Meredith was to have the circle annulled no matter what the actual evidence was (even to the point of going over Elthina's head), I think the only reason Meredith didn't have Elthina killed was because Anders beat her to it.

The Knight-Commanders know that the Grand Clerics are their superiors, and they follow their orders. Secondly, if they actually do have a Grand Cleric killed, do you actually think that it will go without repercussions if discovered?


Right.  Meredith followed Elthina's orders in a pigs eye.  Meredith made it quite clear that she did NOT consider herself the under the authority of Elthina regardless of the official regulations and Elthina let her get away with almost open disrespect.  As for getting away with it, who's going to finger Meredith?  Answer:  no one.

-Polaris

#69
Sepewrath

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Dave of Canada wrote...
That's the thing, they don't. Not everybody thinks the same and some people have to do decisions that other people people will not do.

Probably why I love Loghain so much.


They may not think like you, but they will respond to you. While your killing hundreds to protect your thousands, they will respond to your actions. And war is the only outcome, that is exactly what happened with the mages. The annulment was for the greater good, the mages responded and then the situation ballooned out of control, now the whole continent is at war.

#70
Erani

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dragonflight288 wrote...

Cullen

I know some templars who discuss such things with glee


Alrik

That's right. Once you are tranquil, you'll do anything I ask.


Thrask

I want to solve this peacefully. If Ser Kerras arrives, it'll be a bloodbath.


In addition to the Chantry looking more at religious fervor and zeal before looking at the morality of the templars they recruit....not a pretty picture for the templar order as a whole.


*Nods* Yes Dragon, and even in Ferelden where you might say the Circle was a bit better off...the templars still raped mages and Tranquil (according to Anders; implied in DAO Mage origin) and even watched mages while they bathed. Ignominious!:sick:

#71
EmperorSahlertz

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dragonflight288 wrote...

Cullen

I know some templars who discuss such things with glee


Alrik

That's right. Once you are tranquil, you'll do anything I ask.


Thrask

I want to solve this peacefully. If Ser Kerras arrives, it'll be a bloodbath.


In addition to the Chantry looking more at religious fervor and zeal before looking at the morality of the templars they recruit....not a pretty picture for the templar order as a whole.

Two of your quotes are from Templars who absolutely don't think about killing mages all the time...

#72
KotorEffect3

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Templars remind me of cops, not all of them may be bad but there are enough rotten ones to make them collectively untrustworthy.

#73
EmperorSahlertz

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Then mages would be prisoners. I don't think they are all dangerous, but I'm glad they are behind bars.

#74
Erani

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Then mages would be prisoners. I don't think they are all dangerous, but I'm glad they are behind bars.


WERE! :wizard::wizard::wizard:

#75
EmperorSahlertz

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Gah! Beaten at my own game!