443 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

Two of your quotes are from Templars who absolutely don't think about killing mages all the time...

I'm aware of that. I'm not an ardent templar hater. I simply believe the templar order needs reformation. I support the mages for a very large variety of reasons.

For every good system there is, there will always be bad eggs falling through the cracks. For every immoral system there is, there will be good and honesty people filling the void just as easily. There is no 'all templars are evil and must die' or 'all mages are abominations and blood mages and must die'. There are good and bad things to both sides.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Circle system as a whole could use a revamp. But a continent spanning war, is not the way to go about it.

[dragonflight288]

Good luck convincing a population who have 1000 years of prejudice bred into them and another 1000 years of slavery before that. (templar side of the war)

And also good luck convincing thousands of people from a minority who had absolutely no control over their birth that they should go back to a system where they can be potentially raped and beaten, and if they offer any sign of resistance, be branded a blood mage and killed or tranquilized because there are some sadistic templars. That's a system which has been around for 1000 years as well. The mages have had enough.

Since the templars rebelled, they are not getting their lyrium fix, unless they pillage and plunder across thedas in their mad mage-hunt. Remember the majority of these guys are religious zealots because that's what the chantry was looking for when they were recruited. Religious fanatics don't have a lot of the reasoning hormone in their bodies.

Neither do blood mages and abominations for that matter.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The public probably doesn't even know how the Circles are run, just that the mages are kept within. The changes could happen seamlessly without the public being any the wiser.

I hold no illussion that it can be achieved now. I just think it is sad that the mages dug their own graves this way, when they could have obtained change peacefully.

[ThePhoenixKing]

Honestly, I can't really ever see myself choosing to support the Templars at the end of the game. Besides the moral issues (having a group of innocent men, women and children massacred for a crime they did not commit to supposedly appease an angry mob is wrong; even if the Maker comes down and gives you the green light, it's still wrong), why in the world would anyone want to be Viscount of a city effectively controlled by the templars? At best, you're another Dumar, a good man constrained and hampered by a gang of bullies in plate mail and who is not permitted to govern effectively for fear of being deposed. At worst, you're a complete puppet ruler who will be killed as soon as the templars see you wearing the wrong colour socks when praying to the Maker. All that, and you'll have been complicit in war crimes to boot. Personally, I wouldn't want to rise to power (such as it is) over the bodies of dead innocents, nor would I want to perpetuate such injustices on the basis of its codification into law or the demands of an ill-educated and frightened mob.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The public probably doesn't even know how the Circles are run, just that the mages are kept within. The changes could happen seamlessly without the public being any the wiser.

I hold no illussion that it can be achieved now. I just think it is sad that the mages dug their own graves this way, when they could have obtained change peacefully.

The mages dug their own grave? No, I don't think so. The idea that comprimise and peace were ever an option at this point is one that was a pipe dream. The Chantry's own idocy and terminal incompetance brought this war about.  And this was something I pretty much saw as inevitable in DAO. The Chantry had 1000 years of managing the Circles, yet mismanagement is a better word. Instead of actually taking intelligent, responsible, and practical action, the Chantry clung to its idiotic dogma fanatically, and instead stuck with a policy of containment and "Just say no". And anyone with a clue knows that containment is always only a temporary solution.

So no, the Chantry pretty much dug the hole for everyone. Anders blowing up the Chantry was hardly a surprise. If not him, another idealistic hothead would have done something similar somewhere else. Elthina is a pretty good example of why the Chantry should pretty much be relieved of any legal authority.

I dislike the Chantry immensely, though I do not believe it "evil" per se. I believe it dangerously stupid, too dangerously stupid to be entrusted with the stewardship of something as sensitive as magic. Let alone possess any political authority, especially since the only way the Divines seem to be able to address a problem is to call an Exalted March on it.

[Darius Vir]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I dislike the Chantry immensely, though I do not believe it "evil" per se. I believe it dangerously stupid, too dangerously stupid to be entrusted with the stewardship of something as sensitive as magic. Let alone possess any political authority, especially since the only way the Divines seem to be able to address a problem is to call an Exalted March on it.

Hmmm.  Institutionally, I actually do feel comfortable calling the Chantry evil.  The powers that be, I think, actively know what they are doing and are aware that a large part of what they're teaching is or at least could be false. 

Plus, the whole "Chant must spread to ALL 4 corners of the world for the Maker to forgive us" directive should be a red, flashing warning sign that something is seriously wrong. 

[Shadow Fox]

IanPolaris wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Contrary to popular opinion, somethings are definitionally black or white.  Murdering men, women, and children for a crime they didn't commit is never a grey thing.

-Polaris

End justifies the means certainly does make it grey.

There's a lot of ends that are possible when siding with the Templar.

Not always.  Ends justifies the means MIGHT make it grey.  It can make it black.  In this case backing Meridith is the clearly evil choice.  You are killing INNOCENTS while ignoring the clearly guilty party including women and children.  That's evil.  Full stop.  The fact you are doing it for your own gain makes your character a moral monster no matter how much you try to justify it.  It's bad writing on the part of BW (not that that ever happens in Act III sarc).

-Polaris

Remember the atomic bomb and how it helped the Allies win WWII?Did you know that it also killed untold amounts of innocent Japanese men,women and children while also poisening countless others?

That's how I viewed the ROA: an atomic bomb.

[The Baconer]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Remember the atomic bomb and how it helped the Allies win WWII?Did you know that it also killed untold amounts of innocent Japanese men,women and children while also poisening countless others?

That's how I viewed the ROA: an atomic bomb.

Except the Circle mages had nothing to do with the Chantry bombing, and the resulting bloodshed was directly caused by enacting the RoA. It was nowhere near the 'ugly, but necessary' decision that dropping the Atomic bomb (arguably) was.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Darius Vir wrote...



Hmmm.  Institutionally, I actually do feel comfortable calling the Chantry evil.  The powers that be, I think, actively know what they are doing and are aware that a large part of what they're teaching is or at least could be false. 

Plus, the whole "Chant must spread to ALL 4 corners of the world for the Maker to forgive us" directive should be a red, flashing warning sign that something is seriously wrong. 

I wouldn't call that evil, though, I call that willful, fanatical ignorance and indifference. The Chantry runs on ignorance and blind fanatical belief in its own rightness. They do actually believe they are on the side of "good" and thus, in their eyes, anything they do has the sanction of the Maker himself. It is an institution ruled by faith and superstition, with reason, practically, and common sense off the menu most of the time.

I do not particularly care if the Chantry does wish to wallow in its own dogma even when its idiotic to do so. The problem is that the Chantry are idiots with power, that's what makes them a problem. And they have clealy shown throughout their history that they are pretty inept at using their power. Thus, they should be relieved of it.

[nitefyre410]

The Baconer wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Remember the atomic bomb and how it helped the Allies win WWII?Did you know that it also killed untold amounts of innocent Japanese men,women and children while also poisening countless others?

That's how I viewed the ROA: an atomic bomb.

Except the Circle mages had nothing to do with the Chantry bombing, and the resulting bloodshed was directly caused by enacting the RoA. It was nowhere near the 'ugly, but necessary' decision that dropping the Atomic bomb (arguably) was.

hence why one has not been dropped since.

[Darius Vir]

[quote]Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

[/quote]

I wouldn't call that evil, though, I call that willful, fanatical ignorance and indifference. The Chantry runs on ignorance and blind fanatical belief in its own rightness. They do actually believe they are on the side of "good" and thus, in their eyes, anything they do has the sanction of the Maker himself. It is an institution ruled by faith and superstition, with reason, practically, and common sense off the menu most of the time.

[/quote]

What you say actually makes me wonder.  I think based on what we've seen, the Chantry- and I mean those that actually have a great deal of sayso, like the Divine and the Seekers- are a horrid mix of entities that truly believe the terrible things they preach are true, and those who know full well that it's NOT and yet pimp them for institutional gain.   And, of course, those who mix the two in a self-serving cognitive dissonance.  

It's all awful stuff, imo, and personally would still consider it an evil organization. 

[Shadow Fox]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Cullen

I know some templars who discuss such things with glee

Alrik

That's right. Once you are tranquil, you'll do anything I ask.

Thrask

I want to solve this peacefully. If Ser Kerras arrives, it'll be a bloodbath.

In addition to the Chantry looking more at religious fervor and zeal before looking at the morality of the templars they recruit....not a pretty picture for the templar order as a whole.

Except that's how almost every military on earth recruits,they look for loyalty first morality second. And that's what the Templars are a military force not social aid workers.

Now do I think they need to make a divison for watching over the Circle where morality would be a factor?Yes.

[Shadow Fox]

The Baconer wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Remember the atomic bomb and how it helped the Allies win WWII?Did you know that it also killed untold amounts of innocent Japanese men,women and children while also poisening countless others?

That's how I viewed the ROA: an atomic bomb.

Except the Circle mages had nothing to do with the Chantry bombing, and the resulting bloodshed was directly caused by enacting the RoA. It was nowhere near the 'ugly, but necessary' decision that dropping the Atomic bomb (arguably) was.

My point was that to this day there are people who argue wheter it was a necessary act of warfare or a horrid crime against humanity.

Like people argue over the mage/templar conflict you'll find strong arguments in support of either side.Which is what I think BW intended: There being no right or wrong choice.

[IanPolaris]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Remember the atomic bomb and how it helped the Allies win WWII?Did you know that it also killed untold amounts of innocent Japanese men,women and children while also poisening countless others?

That's how I viewed the ROA: an atomic bomb.

Except the Circle mages had nothing to do with the Chantry bombing, and the resulting bloodshed was directly caused by enacting the RoA. It was nowhere near the 'ugly, but necessary' decision that dropping the Atomic bomb (arguably) was.

My point was that to this day there are people who argue wheter it was a necessary act of warfare or a horrid crime against humanity.

Like people argue over the mage/templar conflict you'll find strong arguments in support of either side.Which is what I think BW intended: There being no right or wrong choice.

Your point is invalid.  Both atomic bombs against Japan were dropped against LEGITAMATE military targets against civilian populations that really were trying to defeat the US in war.  The shock of such a weapon has kept one from being used in war again true, but it's not considered immoral because in war, civilian populations of an enemy nation are not considered innocents (now if the bomb had been dropped on clearly marked Red Cross facilities.......but they weren't).

OTOH, what Meredith did called for the targeted killing of an entire group of men, women, and children that had NOTHING to do with the crime committed.  Not only is it evil and morally unjustified no matter what, it's also technically genocide.  That tells you everything you need to know.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Remember the atomic bomb and how it helped the Allies win WWII?Did you know that it also killed untold amounts of innocent Japanese men,women and children while also poisening countless others?

That's how I viewed the ROA: an atomic bomb.

As I explain above, this is a grossly invalid comparison.  The Allies were at war against Japan (and Germany) and both sides accepted that targeting the civilian workforce was an acceptable tactic of war.  Those weren't "innocents" that the A-Bombs targeted.  They were a hostile civilian workforce in valid military targets and thus the use of the bombs WAS JUSTIFIED.

That's completely different from Meredith's RoA which explicitly targets a group of people that had NO role in the crime committed (obvious since the guilty party has turned himself in and is sitting right there), and all subsequent casualties are directly caused by the EVIL act of killing innocent people for something they did not do.

There is nothing ambigious about it and if Bioware wanted it to be ambigious then they utterly failed in the story telling execution of the scene.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Except that's how almost every military on earth recruits,they look for loyalty first morality second. And that's what the Templars are a military force not social aid workers.

Actually that's not completely true.  At least in the US, you have to take and pass a pyshcological examination as part of your basic military training which includes a moral component over and above loyalty to country first.  The only time I've been in situations where I had to make "loyalty" oaths were for highly classified positions which involved morally ambigious duty (potentially involving nuclear weapons).

Futhermore there is a small but important companent in BMT and officer training (at least in the US) that covers what is and isn't moral in war including the lessons of Nuremburg.

-Polaris

[Shadow Fox]

IanPolaris wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Remember the atomic bomb and how it helped the Allies win WWII?Did you know that it also killed untold amounts of innocent Japanese men,women and children while also poisening countless others?

That's how I viewed the ROA: an atomic bomb.

Except the Circle mages had nothing to do with the Chantry bombing, and the resulting bloodshed was directly caused by enacting the RoA. It was nowhere near the 'ugly, but necessary' decision that dropping the Atomic bomb (arguably) was.

My point was that to this day there are people who argue wheter it was a necessary act of warfare or a horrid crime against humanity.

Like people argue over the mage/templar conflict you'll find strong arguments in support of either side.Which is what I think BW intended: There being no right or wrong choice.

Your point is invalid.  Both atomic bombs against Japan were dropped against LEGITAMATE military targets against civilian populations that really were trying to defeat the US in war.  The shock of such a weapon has kept one from being used in war again true, but it's not considered immoral because in war, civilian populations of an enemy nation are not considered innocents (now if the bomb had been dropped on clearly marked Red Cross facilities.......but they weren't).

OTOH, what Meredith did called for the targeted killing of an entire group of men, women, and children that had NOTHING to do with the crime committed.  Not only is it evil and morally unjustified no matter what, it's also technically genocide.  That tells you everything you need to know.

-Polaris

I think there's a saying about it only taking 1 stupid person to start a war in this case Anders.

[IanPolaris]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

I think there's a saying about it only taking 1 stupid person to start a war in this case Anders.

In this case you'd be wrong.  It took two.  Anders and Meredith.  If Meredith hadn't gone off the deep end and told the Templars to impose martial law and WAIT for word from the Divine, none of this had to happen.  IMHO that's what a sane KC would have done.  Lock down the mages and the city and await further instructions since there was no immediate emergency at the time aside from a search and rescue within the Cathedral.

-Polaris

[Sharn01]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Remember the atomic bomb and how it helped the Allies win WWII?Did you know that it also killed untold amounts of innocent Japanese men,women and children while also poisening countless others?

That's how I viewed the ROA: an atomic bomb.

Except the Circle mages had nothing to do with the Chantry bombing, and the resulting bloodshed was directly caused by enacting the RoA. It was nowhere near the 'ugly, but necessary' decision that dropping the Atomic bomb (arguably) was.

My point was that to this day there are people who argue wheter it was a necessary act of warfare or a horrid crime against humanity.

Like people argue over the mage/templar conflict you'll find strong arguments in support of either side.Which is what I think BW intended: There being no right or wrong choice.

Except the US was at war with Japan, right or not the target was the enemy, your atomic bomb anology would only work if the US dropped a bomb on China instead of japan, Anders was not affiliated with the circle, he was an apostate and a grey warden.  If anything they could have used it as a call for more policing of mages, telling the public how dangerous a mage can be when left unchecked (or insert whatever BS you want to get them to side with you) it certainly had nothing to do with the circle, other then the fact that Anders had the gift of magic.

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

I think there's a saying about it only taking 1 stupid person to start a war in this case Anders.

In this case you'd be wrong.  It took two.  Anders and Meredith.  If Meredith hadn't gone off the deep end and told the Templars to impose martial law and WAIT for word from the Divine, none of this had to happen.  IMHO that's what a sane KC would have done.  Lock down the mages and the city and await further instructions since there was no immediate emergency at the time aside from a search and rescue within the Cathedral.

-Polaris

Actually, didn't Meredith at some point - might even have been in that finale - want to order the mages into house arrest and interrogate them?  And Orsino refused her?  Wasn't that what prompted her to go to Elthina just before Anders went all bomby?

So, yea, she tried that.  Had, in fact, tried it most of DA2.  And has been called insane for it.

[Sharn01]

TJPags wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

I think there's a saying about it only taking 1 stupid person to start a war in this case Anders.

In this case you'd be wrong.  It took two.  Anders and Meredith.  If Meredith hadn't gone off the deep end and told the Templars to impose martial law and WAIT for word from the Divine, none of this had to happen.  IMHO that's what a sane KC would have done.  Lock down the mages and the city and await further instructions since there was no immediate emergency at the time aside from a search and rescue within the Cathedral.

-Polaris

Actually, didn't Meredith at some point - might even have been in that finale - want to order the mages into house arrest and interrogate them?  And Orsino refused her?  Wasn't that what prompted her to go to Elthina just before Anders went all bomby?

So, yea, she tried that.  Had, in fact, tried it most of DA2.  And has been called insane for it.

Actually no, it was Orsino who suggested putting all the mages under house arrest to Merideth, saying they would comply willingly and he would help however she wished, she refused him and continued the RoA.

[WhiteKnyght]

The Templars and the Chantry have punished all mages for 1000 years for crimes that weren't theirs. Meredith invoked the right of annulment to murder dozens of innocent people to satisfy her own prejudices and claimed to be doing it to satisfy the public's prejudices. Never mind the fact that she was ignoring the fact that the Templars aren't above the law.

I don't care if every mage in Kirkwall was a blood mage and had a demon in their pocket. Its not right to punish someone for a crime that isn't their. It's like when Loghain outlawed the Grey Wardens and sent assassins after them when he was the one who betrayed Cailan.

Also let's not forget that originally it was the Mages who were willing to cooperate with the Chantry that lead to the Circles being created. In that era, mages as a whole wanted to prove that they weren't dangerous and could be trusted. But it was the Chantry and the Templars that took advantage and turned the circle into something that mages fear with their harsh prisons, annulments, and tranquility rites.

Not to mention the Templars' idea of testing a mage is throwing them to the wolves and sending a message that there is fresh meat. And the Chantry and Templars hit the height of hypocrisy when they use blood magic to power their phylacteries and hunt people. They preach their scriptures and put down blood magic like it's the pinnacle of all evil but don't hesitate to use it for their own selfish ends.

You can call the Templars a lot of things, but "right" and "good" are not two of them.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 08 août 2011 - 03:58 .

[Shadow Fox]

Sharn01 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Remember the atomic bomb and how it helped the Allies win WWII?Did you know that it also killed untold amounts of innocent Japanese men,women and children while also poisening countless others?

That's how I viewed the ROA: an atomic bomb.

Except the Circle mages had nothing to do with the Chantry bombing, and the resulting bloodshed was directly caused by enacting the RoA. It was nowhere near the 'ugly, but necessary' decision that dropping the Atomic bomb (arguably) was.

My point was that to this day there are people who argue wheter it was a necessary act of warfare or a horrid crime against humanity.

Like people argue over the mage/templar conflict you'll find strong arguments in support of either side.Which is what I think BW intended: There being no right or wrong choice.

Except the US was at war with Japan, right or not the target was the enemy, your atomic bomb anology would only work if the US dropped a bomb on China instead of japan, Anders was not affiliated with the circle, he was an apostate and a grey warden.  If anything they could have used it as a call for more policing of mages, telling the public how dangerous a mage can be when left unchecked (or insert whatever BS you want to get them to side with you) it certainly had nothing to do with the circle, other then the fact that Anders had the gift of magic.

I guess you're right but I still hold Anders mostly responsable for effectivly screwing over the mages after all that bs he fed me about helping the mages he does this!Maybe I'm letting my personal hate for Anders and the blood mages and slavers I encountered cloud my judgement of the situation...I mean if SEBASTION of all people didn't support it that has to count for something

[KotorEffect3]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Then mages would be prisoners. I don't think they are all dangerous, but I'm glad they are behind bars.

Doubt you would think that way if you were a mage.  Being a mage isn't even a choice, either you are a mage or you are not.