443 réponses à ce sujet

[KotorEffect3]

The only way I would even consider siding with Templars is if Bethany is completely out of the question. meaning she died in the deep roads or she is a warden and even then I don't think I could side with the templars.

[Ryzaki]

I like Beth as a warden.

She's colder yes...but she also gets more pragmatic. I love my pragmatic gals.

[Agamo45]

I liked the Templar ending best. Hawke is the shining knight who finally cleansed Kirkwall from the filth of the maleficarum. While simultaneously taking out another threat like Meredith.

[GavrielKay]

Agamo45 wrote...

I liked the Templar ending best. Hawke is the shining knight who finally cleansed Kirkwall from the filth of the maleficarum. While simultaneously taking out another threat like Meredith.

Except the shine kinda pales a bit when splashed with the blood of children.

[GavrielKay]

Gervaise wrote...

Meredith has had a mental breakdown as a result of extreme stress.   If it is apparently considered understandable for mages to abominate under stress, why on earth should a similar implosion not be considered "normal" for a Templar in a similar situation, and Meredith does regard herself and everyone else to be under severe threat. Add in lyrium addiction and the surprise is that it took as long as it did for her head to implode.

The mages that we understand turning into an abomination were actually fighting for their lives, at that very moment.  Not worrying about what might be coming next week, but staring down the blade of a sword right then and there.  Plus, the mages hadn't usurped the Viscountship of a city in order to illegally add more stress to a job that certainly would have had plenty on its own. 

Also, the Chantry is a huge bundle of fail for putting a woman whose past includes a sister turning abomination and killing her family into a position of any authority at all.

[dragonflight288]

She was rewarded for overthrowing a tyrant (who was only overthrown after trying to evict the templars). Many of the common people saw her a hero at the time.

Then she slowly became gripped with paranoia, and when the ruler died in a battle, she came in a took power (illegally as she shouldn't have any political power whatsoever)

.....actually, that basic description describes Loghain as well. Although his power was legal.

[Ryzaki]

GavrielKay wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

I liked the Templar ending best. Hawke is the shining knight who finally cleansed Kirkwall from the filth of the maleficarum. While simultaneously taking out another threat like Meredith.

Except the shine kinda pales a bit when splashed with the blood of children.

Hey if my Warden can lauded as a hero after killing a child (or several [Annulling the circle (possibly if you RP it that way), slaughtering the dalish clan, killing Conner (I'm sure there's more I've forgotten.)] so can Hawke. <3 Hawke at least doesn't have to kill any children with his own hands (templar ending or no). My Warden kind of did. (mostly because Jowan is stabbed/told to GTFO and I'm not going to the circle while there's a demon rampaging). 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 août 2011 - 10:42 .

[LobselVith8]

GavrielKay wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

I liked the Templar ending best. Hawke is the shining knight who finally cleansed Kirkwall from the filth of the maleficarum. While simultaneously taking out another threat like Meredith.

Except the shine kinda pales a bit when splashed with the blood of children.

Murdering hundreds of innocent men, women, and children who weren't responsible for Anders' actions is precisely what makes Hawke a hero to the templars and the people of Kirkwall.

[Ryzaki]

...This is dragon age world. Innocent people are killed while their murders are lauded as heroes plenty of times.

I doubt Hawke/the Warden would really care unless your RP them that way. And forgot about the commoners. They are probably on the boat of "If it's not directly related to me I don't care."

As far as they're concerned the bloodmages are gone, Meredith's crazy self is gone, and Hawke's the cause of it. No reason not to call him a hero. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 août 2011 - 10:46 .

[GavrielKay]

LobselVith8 wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

I liked the Templar ending best. Hawke is the shining knight who finally cleansed Kirkwall from the filth of the maleficarum. While simultaneously taking out another threat like Meredith.

Except the shine kinda pales a bit when splashed with the blood of children.

Murdering hundreds of innocent men, women, and children who weren't responsible for Anders' actions is precisely what makes Hawke a hero to the templars and the people of Kirkwall.

I guess I just don't get feeling happy about annulling the circle.  Confident that Hawke made a difficult choice and perhaps saved some townfolk maybe, but proud of yourself for killing innocents rigth alongside the guilty?  Not so much.

[dragonflight288]

Loghian

War is cruel. Everyone who fought with Maric knows it. There are no innocents. Only the living and the dead, and the level of guilt weighing down the living of both sides.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 08 août 2011 - 10:53 .

[LobselVith8]

GavrielKay wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Murdering hundreds of innocent men, women, and children who weren't responsible for Anders' actions is precisely what makes Hawke a hero to the templars and the people of Kirkwall.

I guess I just don't get feeling happy about annulling the circle.  Confident that Hawke made a difficult choice and perhaps saved some townfolk maybe, but proud of yourself for killing innocents rigth alongside the guilty?  Not so much.

As far as the Andrastians are concerned, mages are cursed, and if any of them think like Cullen does, then they see mages as weapons and think that mages shouldn't be treated like people. Meredith's argument that hundreds of men, women, and children should be murdered simply to appease a hypothetical mob solely because of Anders' actions is the reason given to Hawke towards the conclusion of Act III - it's what makes him a hero to the templars in siding with Meredith, or a hero to the mages in protecting hundreds of innocent lives against those who would otherwise slaughter them. I've don't personally feel like there's a reason to side with a genodical maniac like Meredith, and I don't find Hawke participating in an act of genocide heroic, but I suppose the people of Kirkwall disagree with me.

[Ryzaki]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Loghian

War is cruel. Everyone who fought with Maric knows it. There are no innocents. Only the living and the dead, and the level of guilt weighing down the living of both sides.

I think I've finally found a Loghain quote I like! 

[dragonflight288]

I think I've finally found a Loghain quote I like! smilie

So do I. I just beat Origins again today as I'm playing through as an Amell, and just got that quote.

[TJPags]

Rifneno wrote...

TJPags wrote...

And with that expansion of my memory, let me add that Orsino saying Meredith would find evidence that wasn't there, given his relationship with the mass murderer and his Harvester act, makes me laugh.

I can understand not trusting Orsino. I don't understand trusting Meredith, however. She's completely nuts. If Hawke supports her totally and destroys Thrask's conspiracy to overthrow her, she'll accuse Hawke of being a blood mage thrall if s/he doesn't lie and say Orsino was a part of it. How can you place any trust in her about evidence of wrongdoing?

Of course, there's also the fact she's being controlled by an ancient malevolent force we still don't understand.

Am I still paranoid if they really ARE out to get me? 

No, I agree Meredith was nuts.  However, not trusting Orsino is not the same as trusting her.  It's more about trusting my eyes and experiences.  Her being nuts doesn't make him right.

Rifneno wrote...

Sorry, folks, Meredith was right - the Kirkwall Circle was a lost cause, and needed to be anulled.

Impossible to say. The mages fought outside the Gallows were acting illegally already; law-abiding mages wouldn't be out there to leave an impression on the player. That many of them turned into abominations when they were being systematically slaughtered means nothing because it's a reaction to a unique situation that would make just about anyone crack like an egg.

Well, yes and no here. 

I see mages in the streets throughout the game.  They're all criminals - apostates or Circle runaways or bloodmages, or some combination of the three.  Most attack me, making them criminals yet again.  I know there's a mage underground from Anders, I know they've been helping Circle mages escape for years, and I know these are crimes.  None of us can tell whether most of the mages we run into - with the exception of the three runaways we're sent to corral, and the ones from Starkhaven - are pure apostates who've never been in the Tower or runaways.

True, I never see the rest of the mages - the law-abiding ones, as you say - until the end.  And yes, in my game, after literally spending about 15 minutes deciding what to do, I sided with the mages to protect these apparent innocents.  But when I do try to defend them, I find abominations running wild, blood mages raising the dead, etc.  I didn't count, but I really feel like I fought more abominations/mages then I did Templars.

Now, you say that was a reaction to the extreme circumstances.  I can't say you're wrong for sure.  However, I say it's just more evidence of widespread corruption throughout the Circle.  Given the mage underground, given the First Enchanter - chosen by mages, IIRC - and his propensities, I'm not sure you can say I'm wrong, for sure.

Was EVERY SINGLE mage bad?  No, even I can't say that.  I'm sure there were some that were actually innocent.  In a choice between killing one innocent, and letting 100 bad go, I kill the innocent.  Sorry, but there it is.

People argue that what Anders did was an act of war, and that those in the Chantry were not innocent, as there are no innocents in war.  While I dispute that Anders destroying the Chantry was an act of war, I don't think there can be any doubt that the fight in the Gallows was war.  So if those in the Chantry are viable targets, so are those in the Gallows, even the probable innocents.

[dragonflight288]

Well...I can't argue with what we see, but since the game updated on the xbox 360, the mages in the streets don't attack Hawke after he makes his decision. Just the abominations.

And no, raising the dead isn't restricted to blood mages. My Amell Warden raises the dead regularly in battle, and he isn't a bloodmage. He's actually an arcane warrior, shapeshifter, and a keeper (every type of magic I know of that the Circle and Chantry do not control that isn't blood magic. lol). Raising the dead, or animating them, is actually in the School of Spirit, not related to blood at all. The codex entry says it's often mistaken for blood magic, but it isn't actually so.

[Ryzaki]

...I'm still headdesking over abominations coming out of the ground.

Like...wat.

Just....there are no words. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 août 2011 - 12:01 .

[dragonflight288]

Oh you know, Bioware felt the need to mind control us into saying The Enigma of Kirkwall is a pefectly legitimate excuse for every fault in the game. lol.

[EmperorSahlertz]

There is a great difference between the spirit school spell: Raise Dead, and actual necromancy. Raise Dead only creates a marionet, while necromancy actually binds the spirit of the dead to your will.

[TJPags]

Okay, I took a little literary license with the necromancy thing. There were skeletons, as I recall, which I generally find are done by AI bloodmages. The Starkhaven mages raised quite a few, as I recall. Yes, others can . . .I just don't recall AI enemies doing so often.

Point remains, though - my Hawke pretty much felt like a chump trying to "protect" these loons, criminals, etc.

[KBomb]

I absolutely side with the Templars. Mages have to be kept in check. They should be treated humanely, of course, but they need to be monitored and accounted for. Always.


I agree with Dave of Canada. It is easy to put everything in a black and white cubby where everything is simple and clean. It just isn’t how things work.


And btw, I think comparing Templars to the **** regime is ridiculous.

Modifié par KBomb, 09 août 2011 - 12:39 .

[KotorEffect3]

Ryzaki wrote...

I like Beth as a warden.

She's colder yes...but she also gets more pragmatic. I love my pragmatic gals.

Well she comes around again at the end of act 3 but warden bethany is miserable (just talk to her in  legacy).  If you think about it there are no real good options concerning post act 1 bethany.

[KotorEffect3]

GavrielKay wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

I liked the Templar ending best. Hawke is the shining knight who finally cleansed Kirkwall from the filth of the maleficarum. While simultaneously taking out another threat like Meredith.

Except the shine kinda pales a bit when splashed with the blood of children.

This, when I think of the pro/templar stance and the chantry's overall stance regarding mages I am almost glad Anders did what he did.

[Ryzaki]

KotorEffect3 wrote...
Well she comes around again at the end of act 3 but warden bethany is miserable (just talk to her in  legacy).  If you think about it there are no real good options concerning post act 1 bethany.

Actually since Legacy is meant to be played whenever her being miserable could just be before she finally accepts it in act 3. (since Legacy comes in some strange limbo before act 3 ends and somehow after it ends...) 

[KotorEffect3]

Ryzaki wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...
Well she comes around again at the end of act 3 but warden bethany is miserable (just talk to her in  legacy).  If you think about it there are no real good options concerning post act 1 bethany.

Actually since Legacy is meant to be played whenever her being miserable could just be before she finally accepts it in act 3. (since Legacy comes in some strange limbo before act 3 ends and somehow after it ends...) 

True legacy takes place chronologicaly before the endgame but I think the main difference is that she forgives hawke and accepts her fate that doesn't mean she likes it.  If anything the events in legacy probably played a part of her forgiving hawke