443 réponses à ce sujet

[Sepewrath]

KBomb wrote...

I absolutely side with the Templars. Mages have to be kept in check. They should be treated humanely, of course, but they need to be monitored and accounted for. Always.


I agree with Dave of Canada. It is easy to put everything in a black and white cubby where everything is simple and clean. It just isn’t how things work.


And btw, I think comparing Templars to the **** regime is ridiculous.

Well you are putting it in a black and white cubby yourself, saying they should be kept in check, yet treated in a humane fashion, because those seem mutually exclusive. That is what was suppose to be happening in these Circles but is clearly NOT happening. And the likelyhood that it will start to happen, is slim to none.

[Rifneno]

TJPags wrote...

Am I still paranoid if they really ARE out to get me?

No, I agree Meredith was nuts. However, not trusting Orsino is not the same as trusting her. It's more about trusting my eyes and experiences. Her being nuts doesn't make him right.

They're out to get her because she's a lunatic. Anyway, it's not exactly the same but it is along the same line. Because he's not asking you to trust him in that there's no corruption, he's asking you to trust him in believing Meredith can't be trusted. I'm definitely not saying he's innocent, but I do think he's right that Meredith would invent evidence.

I see mages in the streets throughout the game. They're all criminals - apostates or Circle runaways or bloodmages, or some combination of the three. Most attack me, making them criminals yet again. I know there's a mage underground from Anders, I know they've been helping Circle mages escape for years, and I know these are crimes. None of us can tell whether most of the mages we run into - with the exception of the three runaways we're sent to corral, and the ones from Starkhaven - are pure apostates who've never been in the Tower or runaways.

I think in most cases they'd almost have to be escapees or always apostates. Even in Act I Meredith has taken away a lot of mages freedoms. I don't think I recall ever seeing a single mage who was out and about because he had official permission and we know it. In DAO lots of mages were given permission and we know it to be true. Wynne, Finn, Wilhelm, Uldred (at Ostagar I mean), ect. I can't think of a single one in DA2. Thrask confirms that "mages are less free in Kirkwall than elsewhere" during Act I. The only exceptions are probably Orsino being out of the Gallows a few times for plot reasons.

Now, you say that was a reaction to the extreme circumstances. I can't say you're wrong for sure. However, I say it's just more evidence of widespread corruption throughout the Circle. Given the mage underground, given the First Enchanter - chosen by mages, IIRC - and his propensities, I'm not sure you can say I'm wrong, for sure.

Oh there was definitely some corruption in the Circle. But I highly doubt it was corrupt beyond hope of salvage, as Cullen says the Right of Annulment is intended for. If the templars' own ranks were cleaned up of cancer like Meredith, Karras, and Alrik I think things would've fixed themselves after that. Though granted, the Circle MUST be moved out of Kirkwall if they expect to see the normal (i.e. low) corruption rates.

BTW, Orsino got the job of First Enchanter because nobody else wanted it. They knew it was a losing, if not damning job to try to reason with Meredith. He was technically elected by the Senior Enchanters, but it was because he was the only name on the ballot. So I don't think his dealings with Quentin necessarily speak for those that elected him.

Ryzaki wrote...

...I'm still headdesking over abominations coming out of the ground.

Like...wat.

Just....there are no words.

Yeah, that was...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Oh you know, Bioware felt the need to mind control us into saying The Enigma of Kirkwall is a pefectly legitimate excuse for every fault in the game. lol.

I don't know... it seems the Enigma of Kirkwall was just hinting towards something very important to the series. Between Corypheus and the Primeval Thaig, both of which we haven't seen the last of, the Kirkwall area being the mouth of Hell was more than just a write-off for the lunacy in the city. The only stupid part of it was that no one seemed to notice that something is dreadfully wrong with the entire region.

KBomb wrote...

I absolutely side with the Templars. Mages have to be kept in check. They should be treated humanely, of course, but they need to be monitored and accounted for. Always.

I agree with Dave of Canada. It is easy to put everything in a black and white cubby where everything is simple and clean. It just isn’t how things work.

And btw, I think comparing Templars to the **** regime is ridiculous.

They weren't being "kept in check" in Kirkwall, they were being horrifically abused in every feasible way and the only way that was going to change was cutting open a lot of templars. Which I did, with glee. I'll believe there are a lot of good templars... but not during the Right of Annulment. No. At that point, they had the perfect opportunity to mutiny against their fascist commander. Instead they butchered people at her beck and call. Every single templar involved in it deserves to die. No exceptions at all. Cullen, even Carver if he's one. Every last one deserves to die.

Yeah, because it's not like the templars actions fit expert defintions of the stages of genocide or anything. Oh no wait, they do to a T. Nevermind, templars are ****s.

[Ryzaki]

KotorEffect3 wrote...
True legacy takes place chronologicaly before the endgame but I think the main difference is that she forgives hawke and accepts her fate that doesn't mean she likes it.  If anything the events in legacy probably played a part of her forgiving hawke

Oh she doesn't have to like it. 

She does however grow and mature because of it. It's a harsh slap of reality compared to the glided cage she gets in the circle. Both aren't great fates but I prefer Warden. Probably because sweet Bethany makes me gag. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 août 2011 - 01:59 .

[Rifneno]

Ryzaki wrote...

Oh she doesn't have to like it. 

She does however grow and mature because of it. It's a harsh slap of reality compared to the glided cage she gets in the circle. Both aren't great fates but I prefer Warden. Probably because sweet Bethany makes me gag. 

Ferelden's Circle is a gilded cage.  Kirkwall's Circle is a North Korean POW camp.

[KotorEffect3]

Ryzaki wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...
True legacy takes place chronologicaly before the endgame but I think the main difference is that she forgives hawke and accepts her fate that doesn't mean she likes it.  If anything the events in legacy probably played a part of her forgiving hawke

Oh she doesn't have to like it. 

She does however grow and mature because of it. It's a harsh slap of reality compared to the glided cage she gets in the circle. Both aren't great fates but I prefer Warden. Probably because sweet Bethany makes me gag. 

I don't know why that one makes you gag.  It is nice to have someone that isn't a complete psycho or douchebag.  Deal with enough of those in both reality and bioware games.  I actualy like it when someone is just nice for once

[Ryzaki]

KotorEffect3 wrote...
I don't know why that one makes you gag.  It is nice to have someone that isn't a complete psycho or douchebag.  Deal with enough of those in both reality and bioware games.  I actualy like it when someone is just nice for once

She's too sweet. It just bothers me. For the setting she's in she's just too nice. 

Rifneno wrote...
Ferelden's Circle is a gilded cage.  Kirkwall's Circle is a North Korean POW camp.

KC sure. But Bethany was treated like she was in a gilded cage. No templar was going to be stupid (or insane) enough to harm her. She lived in relative comfort (as her letters state), was allowed to see (and speak) to her family on a somewhat regular basis as well. She was in a glided cage. 

Sure they questioned her but it never went beyond that. The templars weren't stupid enough to push it that far. Does also help that Thrask and Karen (along with Hawke, Leandra and Gamlen) are most likely looking out for her.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 août 2011 - 02:15 .

[London]

I still think it needs to be said that an entire city just watched one mage single-handledly send the entire chantry into thin air.

If you were in the shoes of the civilian population, wouldn't you immediately after that be scared at all? While the RoA isn't really the way to go, once this had happened and Meredith puts you in this situation and abominations begin running the streets, it's hard to really want to unlease more abominations out into the public. The rightfully-frightened mages are also summoning all manner of demon, and even though in game they are easily defeated by Hawke & co., i'm sure lore-wise a single pride demon would be able to take out quite a large number of civilians.

So you really are thrown into an awful situation where I can see a Hawke justify siding with Meredith for all those mages who do not immediately surrender as a course to try to have the least amount of civilian bloodshed.

The immediate aftermath of the Chantry being thrown into the sky is probably a lot more difficult to react to than the calm decision to choose Orsino or Meredith; the game just didn't really demonstrate what was going on in the background in the aftermath of the Anders plot very well to show the other repurcussions of choosing the mages.  Maybe if they had cutscenes of civilian reactions, or Circle mages summoning demons which then go and kill people trying to flee the docks this conversation would be a bit different.

Modifié par SebastianDA, 09 août 2011 - 02:19 .

[KotorEffect3]

Ryzaki wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...
I don't know why that one makes you gag.  It is nice to have someone that isn't a complete psycho or douchebag.  Deal with enough of those in both reality and bioware games.  I actualy like it when someone is just nice for once

She's too sweet. It just bothers me. For the setting she's in she's just too nice. 

Rifneno wrote...
Ferelden's Circle is a gilded cage.  Kirkwall's Circle is a North Korean POW camp.

KC sure. But Bethany was treated like she was in a gilded cage. No templar was going to be stupid (or insane) enough to harm her. She lived in relative comfort (as her letters state), was allowed to see (and speak) to her family on a somewhat regular basis as well. She was in a glided cage. 

Sure they questioned her but it never went beyond that. The templars weren't stupid enough to push it that far. Does also help that Thrask and Karen (along with Hawke, Leandra and Gamlen) are most likely looking out for her.

 

Well then I will have to just disagree.  You should be happy with Carver though he is douchey and disagreeable as hell

[Rifneno]

Ryzaki wrote...

KC sure. But Bethany was treated like she was in a gilded cage. No templar was going to be stupid (or insane) enough to harm her. She lived in relative comfort (as her letters state), was allowed to see (and speak) to her family on a somewhat regular basis as well. She was in a glided cage.

Sure they questioned her but it never went beyond that. The templars weren't stupid enough to push it that far. Does also help that Thrask and Karen (along with Hawke, Leandra and Gamlen) are most likely looking out for her.

Hmm. Fair enough. I never really understood why the templars wouldn't dare to harm her in Act II though, before Hawke is champion. Oh well...

SebastianDA wrote...

I still think it needs to be said that an entire city just watched one mage single-handledly send the entire chantry into thin air.

If you were in the shoes of the civilian population, wouldn't you immediately after that be scared at all? While the RoA isn't really the way to go, once this had happened and Meredith puts you in this situation and abominations begin running the streets, it's hard to really want to unlease more abominations out into the public. The rightfully-frightened mages are also summoning all manner of demon, and even though in game they are easily defeated by Hawke & co., i'm sure lore-wise a single pride demon would be able to take out quite a large number of civilians.

So you really are thrown into an awful situation where I can see a Hawke justify siding with Meredith for all those mages who do not immediately surrender as a course to try to have the least amount of civilian bloodshed.

The immediate aftermath of the Chantry being thrown into the sky is probably a lot more difficult to react to than the calm decision to choose Orsino or Meredith; the game just didn't really demonstrate what was going on in the background in the aftermath of the Anders plot very well to show the other repurcussions of choosing the mages. Maybe if they had cutscenes of civilian reactions, or Circle mages summoning demons which then go and kill people trying to flee the docks this conversation would be a bit different.

You kill the abominations and demons either way. And if some lynch mob wants mage blood, I won't lose any sleep killing them to a man. A lynch mob trying to murder people for a crime they didn't commit deserves no mercy whatsoever.

[Ryzaki]

KotorEffect3 wrote...
Well then I will have to just disagree.  You should be happy with Carver though he is douchey and disagreeable as hell

I love Carver. 

I just wish I didn't have to play a mage to get him. Ma rogues and warriors D: 

@Riferno: Hawke still (at that point) has made his/her name being good at killing things (not to mention some templars owe him favors) that it makes sense that no one would touch her. If someone Bethany (unlike most mages) has a support structure that can ruin their lives. Even if Meredith turned a blind eye Hawke would draw attention and that would be the last thing they'd want. Hawke's good at killing people when the justice system fails (Magistrate's son quest). 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 août 2011 - 02:25 .

[TJPags]

Rifneno wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Am I still paranoid if they really ARE out to get me?

No, I agree Meredith was nuts. However, not trusting Orsino is not the same as trusting her. It's more about trusting my eyes and experiences. Her being nuts doesn't make him right.

They're out to get her because she's a lunatic. Anyway, it's not exactly the same but it is along the same line. Because he's not asking you to trust him in that there's no corruption, he's asking you to trust him in believing Meredith can't be trusted. I'm definitely not saying he's innocent, but I do think he's right that Meredith would invent evidence.

Perhaps.  And she WAS a lunatic.  However, I don't think she'd really have to invent evidence.

Rifneno wrote...

I see mages in the streets throughout the game. They're all criminals - apostates or Circle runaways or bloodmages, or some combination of the three. Most attack me, making them criminals yet again. I know there's a mage underground from Anders, I know they've been helping Circle mages escape for years, and I know these are crimes. None of us can tell whether most of the mages we run into - with the exception of the three runaways we're sent to corral, and the ones from Starkhaven - are pure apostates who've never been in the Tower or runaways.

I think in most cases they'd almost have to be escapees or always apostates. Even in Act I Meredith has taken away a lot of mages freedoms. I don't think I recall ever seeing a single mage who was out and about because he had official permission and we know it. In DAO lots of mages were given permission and we know it to be true. Wynne, Finn, Wilhelm, Uldred (at Ostagar I mean), ect. I can't think of a single one in DA2. Thrask confirms that "mages are less free in Kirkwall than elsewhere" during Act I. The only exceptions are probably Orsino being out of the Gallows a few times for plot reasons.

True.  Yet they were getting out.  Now, that speaks partially to Templar efficiency - the Gallows was a prison, wasn't it?  Should be pretty secure - but to me, it also speaks of a highly organized, very determined underground.

Rifneno wrote...

Now, you say that was a reaction to the extreme circumstances. I can't say you're wrong for sure. However, I say it's just more evidence of widespread corruption throughout the Circle. Given the mage underground, given the First Enchanter - chosen by mages, IIRC - and his propensities, I'm not sure you can say I'm wrong, for sure.

Oh there was definitely some corruption in the Circle. But I highly doubt it was corrupt beyond hope of salvage, as Cullen says the Right of Annulment is intended for. If the templars' own ranks were cleaned up of cancer like Meredith, Karras, and Alrik I think things would've fixed themselves after that. Though granted, the Circle MUST be moved out of Kirkwall if they expect to see the normal (i.e. low) corruption rates.

This is where I think we disagree the most.  You think there was redemption or salvage for the Circle.  I don't, especially after what I saw when I sided with the mages.  The Circle has, after all, been there for a long time.  Even given the enigma of Kirkwall issue, and perhaps because of it, how long has it been this corrupt?  Has it been a steady decline, or did it suddenly go nuts when Meredith arrived?  If the first, then IMO, it's a festering boil that's only going to get worse, and needs to be lanced.  If the latter, I'd think someone would have noticed the change.

Rifneno wrote...

BTW, Orsino got the job of First Enchanter because nobody else wanted it. They knew it was a losing, if not damning job to try to reason with Meredith. He was technically elected by the Senior Enchanters, but it was because he was the only name on the ballot. So I don't think his dealings with Quentin necessarily speak for those that elected him.

Really?  I suppose I can see that.  Still, his propensities either went unoticed for years, or nobody cared because he wasn't that different, or he just started dabbling.  And I don't think he just started dabbling.

Rifneno wrote...

KBomb wrote...

I absolutely side with the Templars. Mages have to be kept in check. They should be treated humanely, of course, but they need to be monitored and accounted for. Always.

I agree with Dave of Canada. It is easy to put everything in a black and white cubby where everything is simple and clean. It just isn’t how things work.

And btw, I think comparing Templars to the **** regime is ridiculous.

They weren't being "kept in check" in Kirkwall, they were being horrifically abused in every feasible way and the only way that was going to change was cutting open a lot of templars. Which I did, with glee. I'll believe there are a lot of good templars... but not during the Right of Annulment. No. At that point, they had the perfect opportunity to mutiny against their fascist commander. Instead they butchered people at her beck and call. Every single templar involved in it deserves to die. No exceptions at all. Cullen, even Carver if he's one. Every last one deserves to die.

Yeah, because it's not like the templars actions fit expert defintions of the stages of genocide or anything. Oh no wait, they do to a T. Nevermind, templars are ****s.

Goiing this over the top really serves no purpose except to inflame.

[Rifneno]

Ryzaki wrote...

I love Carver. 

I just wish I didn't have to play a mage to get him. Ma rogues and warriors D: 

If you play on PC, you don't.

[Rifneno]

TJPags wrote...

Goiing this over the top really serves no purpose except to inflame.

Not the best forum if you can't handle strong opposing opinions.

[Ryzaki]

Rifneno wrote...
If you play on PC, you don't.

Ah. I'll wait til that mod is updated before installing it. 

Thanks for the heads up though. 

[TJPags]

Rifneno wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Goiing this over the top really serves no purpose except to inflame.

Not the best forum if you can't handle strong opposing opinions.

Not the point.  And I know you know it.

[Rifneno]

TJPags wrote...

Not the point.  And I know you know it.

What, think comparing the templars to ****s is trolling? You better report Bioware to themselves for trolling on the whole "Tranquil Solution" angle.

[LobselVith8]

Rifneno wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

KC sure. But Bethany was treated like she was in a gilded cage. No templar was going to be stupid (or insane) enough to harm her. She lived in relative comfort (as her letters state), was allowed to see (and speak) to her family on a somewhat regular basis as well. She was in a glided cage.

Sure they questioned her but it never went beyond that. The templars weren't stupid enough to push it that far. Does also help that Thrask and Karen (along with Hawke, Leandra and Gamlen) are most likely looking out for her.

Hmm. Fair enough. I never really understood why the templars wouldn't dare to harm her in Act II though, before Hawke is champion. Oh well...

Because the writers thought that people were siding with mages "automatically" and having something bad happen to Bethany at the hands of the templars would have given some people reason to side against the templars, which is why Orsino dealt with Starkhaven Circle mage Quentin (as inferred from Gascard's note) for purposes that were never explained and don't really make any sense if you're sober. Why didn't templars harm Bethany the way they warmed Alain? Because the Plot Dictates.

Then again, the writers attempts to give players a reason to side with the templars was in the same storyline where Meredith decided to kill hundreds of people because of an act only Anders committed, and the writers killed Ser Thrask in an asinine quest instead of presenting him as the "good templar option."

[TJPags]

Rifneno wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Not the point.  And I know you know it.

What, think comparing the templars to ****s is trolling? You better report Bioware to themselves for trolling on the whole "Tranquil Solution" angle.

Duck, or you might not miss the point again.

Tossing the **** card around has nothing at all to do with having intelligent discussion.  Which you and I were, actually, doing.  It can be done without the over the top rhetoric.

But hey, what do I know?  I'm just a genocidal ****, right, signing up to join in the final solution?

*headdesk*

Modifié par TJPags, 09 août 2011 - 02:44 .

[Rifneno]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Because the writers thought that people were siding with mages "automatically" and having something bad happen to Bethany at the hands of the templars would have given some people reason to side against the templars, which is why Orsino dealt with Starkhaven Circle mage Quentin (as inferred from Gascard's note) for purposes that were never explained and don't really make any sense if you're sober. Why didn't templars harm Bethany the way they warmed Alain? Because the Plot Dictates.

Maybe Karras thought girls are icky. As for Alrik, well, anyone that can reach the top shelf is too old for him.

TJPags wrote...

Duck, or you might not miss the point again.

Tossing the **** card around has nothing at all to do with having intelligent discussion.  Which you and I were, actually, doing.  It can be done without the over the top rhetoric.

But hey, what do I know?  I'm just a genocidal ****, right, signing up to join in the final solution?

*headdesk*

1. You'll have to excuse the fact I'm not going to take that seriously given the number of times I've seen you not give that speech to someone comparing Anders to Osama bin Laden.
2. I was unaware you were a templar in Thedas. Here I thought I was talking to another person on 2011 Earth via the Internet. So what, do ISP's connecting to fictional realms of existence still charge by the hour like 1995 AOL?

[Ryzaki]

Would've been nice if there was a good templar option where you slowly (and secretively) cultivate a rebellion under Hawke's banner. These templars would sometimes point you out to ridculously corrupt templars that Hawke would then put down weakening Meredith's support structure. Then when she goes bonkers in the end if Hawke played his cards right half (or more) of the templars would've fought with him to protect the mages (but not to set them free). mages that tried to flee were killed by Meredith's group. Those that stayed with Hawke's templars were protected. Orsino tries to flee and ignores Hawke's advice (similar to mage ending) That way Orsino's treachery could still be exposed (and Hawke could still cut them down) without the ridiculous following of Meredith's insanity. Then finally Cullen and his half of the templars throw their lot in with Hawke once Meredith goes completely off the deep end by Hawke pointing out the fact that templars aren't just supposed to protect the civilians from the mages but the mages from the civilians as well. Then all the insane ones could've fought with Meredith (whose numbers should be weakened from the bloodmages she fought) all the insane bloodmages were mostly already eliminated by Hawke earlier.

Kerass is many things but not an idiot. People usually choose victims that are defenseless and don't have a support structure. Alain is a perfect victim. Bethany not so much. Raping Bethany is far too much of a hassle for Kerass. It wouldn't be worth it. Not when he can rape another pretty female mage that doesn't have someone waiting in the wings to seperate his head from his shoulders. 

And that's a giant ramble.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 août 2011 - 02:57 .

[LobselVith8]

Rifneno wrote...

Maybe Karras thought girls are icky. As for Alrik, well, anyone that can reach the top shelf is too old for him.

Kerras does say to "save the pretty one for questioning," so he seems to be an equal opportunity rapist.

And Bethany mentions in her letter going out of her way to avoid Alrik, so it doesn't seem to have anything to do with any reputation Hawke cultivated. I doubt she'd even admit if something did happen, especially in a letter that's likely to be read by the Chantry and the Order of Templars before arriving at the Amell manor. I honestly hate that the writers simply had Hawke standing by like an idiot while Cullen took Bethany away to the same Circle of Kirkwall that he knows made Karl tranquil illegally; it removed any desire I had to play as a warrior or rogue Hawke.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Hawke stood by because Bethany told him to.

[Shadow Fox]

Ryzaki wrote...

Would've been nice if there was a good templar option where you slowly (and secretively) cultivate a rebellion under Hawke's banner. These templars would sometimes point you out to ridculously corrupt templars that Hawke would then put down weakening Meredith's support structure. Then when she goes bonkers in the end if Hawke played his cards right half (or more) of the templars would've fought with him to protect the mages (but not to set them free). mages that tried to flee were killed by Meredith's group. Those that stayed with Hawke's templars were protected. Orsino tries to flee and ignores Hawke's advice (similar to mage ending) That way Orsino's treachery could still be exposed (and Hawke could still cut them down) without the ridiculous following of Meredith's insanity. Then finally Cullen and his half of the templars throw their lot in with Hawke once Meredith goes completely off the deep end by Hawke pointing out the fact that templars aren't just supposed to protect the civilians from the mages but the mages from the civilians as well. Then all the insane ones could've fought with Meredith (whose numbers should be weakened from the bloodmages she fought) all the insane bloodmages were mostly already eliminated by Hawke earlier.

Kerass is many things but not an idiot. People usually choose victims that are defenseless and don't have a support structure. Alain is a perfect victim. Bethany not so much. Raping Bethany is far too much of a hassle for Kerass. It wouldn't be worth it. Not when he can rape another pretty female mage that doesn't have someone waiting in the wings to seperate his head from his shoulders. 

And that's a giant ramble.

With Thrask as 2nd in command and Keran as a general!


And what bothered me about is that a Mage Hawke can use his wealth to stay outta of the Circle but a Rouge?Warrior Hawke can't buy Bethaney's freedom.

[Shadow Fox]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Hawke stood by because Bethany told him to.

Yeah I choose the agressive option and my Hawke was ready to go to town on those Temps.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Bethany don't want to be free...