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Mage v. Templar Ending (Spoilers) - Still Can't Decide


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#176
KBomb

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Sepewrath wrote...

Well you are putting it in a black and white cubby yourself, saying they should be kept in check, yet treated in a humane fashion, because those seem mutually exclusive. That is what was suppose to be happening in these Circles but is clearly NOT happening. And the likelyhood that it will start to happen, is slim to none.


The grey area isn’t whether they should be kept in check, or that they should be treated humanely. You are right, those are quite black and white issues. The grey area come with what should be done verses what has to be done. That is the grey area to which I believe Dave was referring.

Rifneno wrote…
They weren't being "kept in check" in Kirkwall, they were being horrifically abused in every feasible way and the only way that was going to change was cutting open a lot of templars.


Things in the Kirkwall Circle were falling apart and the circumstances were becoming dire--I think that was the point. I consider the justice system broke, but a necessary infrastructure nonetheless. There is no argument from me that it needed mending. By you saying the only way to change the circumstances was “cutting open a lot of templars” is not so different than the templars who think the only way to stop mages from becoming blood mages or abominations is to cull them all. You’re no better.

Which I did, with glee.


I guess because the situation suits your cause, you were happy to deal some death. Anyone who sees it “gleeful” or maybe the ones who had to kill mages because they were attacking them--is also righteous in dealing the death?

I'll believe there are a lot of good templars... but not during the Right of Annulment. No. At that point, they had the perfect opportunity to mutiny against their fascist commander. Instead they butchered people at her beck and call. Every single templar involved in it deserves to die. No exceptions at all. Cullen, even Carver if he's one. Every last one deserves to die.

I saw mages killing people without cause. I saw a blood mage kill his wife who loved him and only wanted to help him. I saw a blood mage kill “my” mother and other women just so he could have his true love back. Or the mages that attack Sebastian and myself before Leliana could get there--you know, the ones who were pushing for war? I could go on and on. The templars believed the RoA was the right thing to do. They had seen how many mages were turning to blood magic and consorting with demons. Cullen was sympathetic and wanted to spare the two mages who surrendered and when he saw Meredith stepping over the line, he called her on it. And butchered? Mages were trying to kill me left and right. Also, Orsino kills mages himself, calling them sacrifices. He knew about the blood mages. He certainly knew about the one who was killing women left and right, didn’t he?


Yeah, because it's not like the templars actions fit expert defintions of the stages of genocide or anything. Oh no wait, they do to a T. Nevermind, templars are ****s.


No. It isn’t at all like that. The RoA happens when blood mages and abominations have corrupted the Circle and the line between mage and abomination is too blurry to recognize. At this point, they are a danger not only to themselves but others. Innocent citizens who haven’t got the training or skills to defend themselves against the onslaught of demons. And as far as I saw, the Circle was teeming with abominations and blood mages.

Modifié par KBomb, 09 août 2011 - 03:45 .


#177
LobselVith8

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Hawke stood by because Bethany told him to.


So that she would be taken into a prison where he knows mages are being made tranquil illegally? That makes Hawke a moron and a coward.

#178
EmperorSahlertz

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No no no, you can't start using logic against the pro-mage fellas, they will just start calling you a genocidal maniac...

#179
DPSSOC

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LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Hawke stood by because Bethany told him to.


So that she would be taken into a prison where he knows mages are being made tranquil illegally? That makes Hawke a moron and a coward.


Bethany knows (or at least could know) that too, and she still tells him to stay his hand.  Neither Hawke nor Bethany gain anything by fighting the Templars, even if you win you're back to living on the run.

#180
EmperorSahlertz

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Yeah but you see, that would be the SMART and BRAVE thing to do.

#181
Shadow Fox

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Bethany don't want to be free...

No she didn't want Hawke to make the situation worse.Harboring Aposates is a crime and Cullen flat out says that it's because she's cooperating that  they aren't being punished for it.

#182
LobselVith8

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Bethany don't want to be free...


Ignoring that Bethany is resentful against Hawke in Act II, if Hawke was any decent human being, he wouldn't allow his sister to be taken away to a prison where he knows mages have been made tranquil against Chantry law. It's cowardly for Hawke to abandon his sister to Cullen. That Hawke would abandon his sister to a place where he can actually hear a mage being tortured and can listen to mages admitting to getting whipped for merely speaking to civilians, not to mention where she runs the risk of losing her humanity to the same templar who illegally made Karl and others tranquil, speaks volumes about the kind of person that Hawke really is.

#183
EmperorSahlertz

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He does not abandon her, he lets her have her will, and let her take her shot at something she wants in her life.

#184
Dave of Canada

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Oh hey, let's turn this into an anti-Hawke thread!

#185
Ryzaki

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Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
With Thrask as 2nd in command and Keran as a general!Image IPB


And what bothered me about is that a Mage Hawke can use his wealth to stay outta of the Circle but a Rouge?Warrior Hawke can't buy Bethaney's freedom.


Yup. Their duty would be to protect and they don't need to be fanatics for that. Bloodmages like that moron Grace would need to be rooted out though. Might need someone a bit more stern to do that. Thrask gave her way too much leeway. 

I'm sure it's more Mage Hawke's ability to stab people in the ribs. You really don't want that running around. Most mages aren't trained in anything other than magical combat. Hawke on the other hand...too much of a damn headache. (not to mention templar Carver could be covering for Hawke). 
"Mage? What mage? There's no mage!" 

With his connections to the vicount (since Hawke is the only one who can deal with the Qunari headache) I don't see anyone being eager to throw him to the wolves. And the templars probably went to check the house while Hawke was at the expedition and didn't find anything magey. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 août 2011 - 04:02 .


#186
LobselVith8

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DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Hawke stood by because Bethany told him to.


So that she would be taken into a prison where he knows mages are being made tranquil illegally? That makes Hawke a moron and a coward.


Bethany knows (or at least could know) that too, and she still tells him to stay his hand. Neither Hawke nor Bethany gain anything by fighting the Templars, even if you win you're back to living on the run.


So you mean selfishness should prevent Hawke from making sure his sister isn't turned into a mindless thrall? Hawke can defeat Cullen and the only other templar in the room, and make certain his sister is safe and with her humanity intact; that would mean more to me than an old family name.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Yeah but you see, that would be the SMART and BRAVE thing to do.


There's nothing brave about abandoning a human being - no less a sister - to a monstrous enviornment of torture where mages are being made tranquil illegally.

#187
London

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I don't recall Circle Bethany being resentful towards Hawke in Act II, she actually writes you a nice letter saying things arne't so bad for her. She also feels like she's settled into a mentor role with some of the younger mages.

It's Grey Warden Bethany who is resentful in Act II, not Circle Bethany (unless I missed something).

#188
EmperorSahlertz

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What makes you think Hawke stands any chance against Cullen?

#189
Ryzaki

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Ugh GW Bethany's resentment irritated me.

You should be happy you're alive, not snarling at Hawke because he saved your ass.

At least with Carver's snarling it had been there since day one so it was a broken record. Bethany on the other hand...

#190
dragonflight288

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But resisting could have made the entire expedition pointless. Cullen was the Knight-Captain. Other templars surely knew he was there. If they resisted, the entire family (Hawke, Leandra, Gamlen) would suffer. Then all that treasure in the deep roads wouldn't be put to use.

#191
LobselVith8

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What makes you think Hawke stands any chance against Cullen?


The defeat of the Profane, the Profane Abomination, and the Ancient Rockwraith to name a few...

#192
EmperorSahlertz

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And now you presume that those you mention would stand a chance against Cullen.

#193
DPSSOC

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LobselVith8 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Bethany knows (or at least could know) that too, and she still tells him to stay his hand. Neither Hawke nor Bethany gain anything by fighting the Templars, even if you win you're back to living on the run.


So you mean selfishness should prevent Hawke from making sure his sister isn't turned into a mindless thrall? Hawke can defeat Cullen and the only other templar in the room, and make certain his sister is safe and with her humanity intact; that would mean more to me than an old family name.


It's not just an old family name, it's a return to the days of constantly moving from town to town, village to village, always trying to stay ahead of the Templars, especially in a place like the Free Marches where the Templars are a lot more brutal.  Bethany is making the choice here; she doesn't want to return to that kind of life, she doesn't want to impose that kind of life on her mother or sibling.  What you're suggesting is saying, "To hell with what you want, you'll be free and we'll all be miserable."  She knows, as does Hawke, that there are good Templars in the Circle who may owe Hawke big.  They can be trusted to look after Bethany.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 09 août 2011 - 04:12 .


#194
LobselVith8

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And now you presume that those you mention would stand a chance against Cullen.


That must explain why everyone turns to Cullen to resolve all the problems in Kirkwall and basically murder anything in his path... oh wait.

#195
EmperorSahlertz

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Cullen is neither an adventurer, nor a sellsword, that is why no one turns to him. He is a Templar, and that is his only duty.

#196
LobselVith8

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DPSSOC wrote...

It's not just an old family name, it's a return to the days of constantly moving from town to town, village to village, always trying to stay ahead of the Templars, especially in a place like the Free Marches where the Templars are a lot more brutal.  Bethany is making the choice here; she doesn't want to return to that kind of life, she doesn't want to impose that kind of life on her mother or sibling.  What you're suggesting is saying, "To hell with what you want, you'll be free and we'll all be miserable."  She knows, as does Hawke, that there are good Templars in the Circle who may owe Hawke big.  They can be trusted to look after Bethany.


So let's allow Bethany to suffer and possibly lose her humanity in an enviornment where mages are being illegally made tranquil because it'll be a nusance to Hawke otherwise? That's not a decision that deserves any amount of respect.

#197
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The scene with Cullen was rather poor; you'd expect that Cullen would not have arrived with little support, but probably stationed a hoarde of templars outside rather than going by himself. At this point Hawke already had some reputation, it seems doubtful he wouldn't have had significant backup.

Also Bethany's character was written as wanting a normal life - she was tired of hiding. A part of her was written to be relieved at not having to hide any more. I think that is why Circle Bethany seems happier during Act II overall, while Gray Warden Bethany who is forced to roam around on Grey Warden business seems miserable.

#198
EmperorSahlertz

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Nuesance? It could be the death of his entire family AND himself.

#199
LobselVith8

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Cullen is neither an adventurer, nor a sellsword, that is why no one turns to him. He is a Templar, and that is his only duty.


In other words, he's like every other templar who Hawke can kill?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Nuesance? It could be the death of his entire family AND himself.


Yeah, it's not like Malcolm and Leandra spent most of their lives staying ahead of the templars or anything like that... Image IPB

Modifié par LobselVith8, 09 août 2011 - 04:18 .


#200
Shadow Fox

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LobselVith8 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Hawke stood by because Bethany told him to.


So that she would be taken into a prison where he knows mages are being made tranquil illegally? That makes Hawke a moron and a coward.


Bethany knows (or at least could know) that too, and she still tells him to stay his hand. Neither Hawke nor Bethany gain anything by fighting the Templars, even if you win you're back to living on the run.


So you mean selfishness should prevent Hawke from making sure his sister isn't turned into a mindless thrall? Hawke can defeat Cullen and the only other templar in the room, and make certain his sister is safe and with her humanity intact; that would mean more to me than an old family name.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Yeah but you see, that would be the SMART and BRAVE thing to do.


There's nothing brave about abandoning a human being - no less a sister - to a monstrous enviornment of torture where mages are being made tranquil illegally.

It isn't selfish to ignore your sister's wishes because you don't agree with them?
And do you realize just how incredibly stupid Hawke fighting those Templars would have been*whenever my Hawke fought alone at that point she got curbstomped* especially with his/her defenseless mother and uncle in the house and that  it would have brought both the  wrath of the ENTIRE Order as well as the city guard*as I doubt Aveline would be able to cover for Hawke in this case*  right on they're doorstep?