443 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

It would be the BRAVE and SMART thing... Havn't you been listening?

[DPSSOC]

LobselVith8 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

It's not just an old family name, it's a return to the days of constantly moving from town to town, village to village, always trying to stay ahead of the Templars, especially in a place like the Free Marches where the Templars are a lot more brutal.  Bethany is making the choice here; she doesn't want to return to that kind of life, she doesn't want to impose that kind of life on her mother or sibling.  What you're suggesting is saying, "To hell with what you want, you'll be free and we'll all be miserable."  She knows, as does Hawke, that there are good Templars in the Circle who may owe Hawke big.  They can be trusted to look after Bethany.

So let's allow Bethany to suffer and possibly lose her humanity in an enviornment where mages are being illegally made tranquil because it'll be a nusance to Hawke otherwise? That's not a decision that deserves any amount of respect.

NOT JUST HAWKE!  Bethany is choosing between her personal possible sufferring and that of her family and friends.  She's taking the bullet for Aveline, Anders, Isabella, Varric, Merrill, Fenris, Leandra, Gamlen, and Hawke.  If the Templars start gunning for Bethany and Hawke they will track down their associates and that will lead them to Anders and Merrill (who will be killed on sight) as well as Isabella, Varric, and Aveline (most likely imprisoned), and Fenris would probably become a lab rat in the Circle.  This is not Hawke deciding this isn't worth his/her energy it is Bethany deciding she will not let others suffer for her freedom.

[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

There's nothing brave about abandoning a human being - no less a sister - to a monstrous enviornment of torture where mages are being made tranquil illegally.

It isn't selfish to ignore your sister's wishes because you don't agree with them?

You mean abandoning your sister to a Circle of Magi where you know mages are being illegally made tranquil, and worse? No, it wouldn't be selfish, it would mean Hawke's a human being and not human garbage.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

And do you realize just how incredibly stupid Hawke fighting those Templars would have been*whenever my Hawke fought alone at that point she got curbstomped* especially with his/her defenseless mother and uncle in the house and that  it would have brought both the  wrath of the ENTIRE Order as well as the city guard*as I doubt Aveline would be able to cover for Hawke in this case*  right on they're doorstep?

You're acting as though Hawke hasn't shown his ability to kill multiple templars throughout the storyline. For all his faults, Hawke is exceptionably good at killing - templars included.

[London]

Bethany issue aside, I'm sitll surprised that more people aren't bothered by the mages summoning demons to defend them and unleashing them on the civilians.

While most agree that things need to change for the Mages, and the RoA is utterly wrong....I still think the reality of the situation might have called for ending the violence as quickly as possible, and the way to do that was not to kill off 100's of templars (which while demonized in the game, still must have had genuinely good people with families, children, etc. off-screen).

I'm still trying to look at the very specific situation Hawke was placed in, and the hysteria likely running through the city, and what would have been the best fix at the time. Blood would be on Hawke's hands either way, either by killing numerous templars (not all of which are evil) and also assisting mages get into the city to have demons kill civilians, or by cutting through the Circle. I still don't find the situation so cut an dry in regards to the actual consequences off-screen.

(Yes Meredith is truly to blame, but still dealing with two bad scenerios..)

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It would be the BRAVE and SMART thing... Havn't you been listening?

It would be brave and smart to abandon your sister to a monstrous enviornment where her people are being made tranquil against Chantry law? That makes no sense.

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

So let's allow Bethany to suffer and possibly lose her humanity in an enviornment where mages are being illegally made tranquil because it'll be a nusance to Hawke otherwise? That's not a decision that deserves any amount of respect.

NOT JUST HAWKE!  Bethany is choosing between her personal possible sufferring and that of her family and friends. She's taking the bullet for Aveline, Anders, Isabella, Varric, Merrill, Fenris, Leandra, Gamlen, and Hawke.

And Hawke, like a coward, abandons his sister to the templars so he can live in a comfortable mansion and wear silk robes. I get it, I simply call it for what it is - cowardice.

DPSSOC wrote...

If the Templars start gunning for Bethany and Hawke they will track down their associates and that will lead them to Anders and Merrill (who will be killed on sight) as well as Isabella, Varric, and Aveline (most likely imprisoned), and Fenris would probably become a lab rat in the Circle.

Or Hawke can warn them and leave ASAP. I doubt Anders or Merrill would hold a grudge for Hawke acting like a decent human being and a good brother. It's not as if Anders or Merrill don't support Hawke if he advocates protecting mages from the templars.

DPSSOC wrote...

This is not Hawke deciding this isn't worth his/her energy it is Bethany deciding she will not let others suffer for her freedom.

You mean it's Hawke doing nothing to save his sister from possible tranquility, or worse.

[Ryzaki]

If Hawke was so concerned about his sister and templars he should've taken her to the deep roads.

[London]

Deep Roads wasn't much better; he risked explosing her to the darkspawn sickness down there. If Hawke leaves Bethany at home - it's likely due to Leandra not wanting to lose both of her children at once which was a very real possibility of going down to the Deep Roads on an uncertain venture.

[LobselVith8]

Ryzaki wrote...

If Hawke was so concerned about his sister and templars he should've taken her to the deep roads.

SebastianDA is trying to get this thread back on-topic, and I don't see the point in us repeating ourselves.

[Ryzaki]

SebastianDA wrote...

Deep Roads wasn't much better; he risked explosing her to the darkspawn sickness down there. If Hawke leaves Bethany at home - it's likely due to Leandra not wanting to lose both of her children at once which was a very real possibility of going down to the Deep Roads on an uncertain venture.

And losing her to the templars is a very real possibility with leaving her alone in a templar run city. 

[dragonflight288]

Are people honestly arguing what Hawke should have done before and after the deep roads, before when (s)he has absolutely no clue what's going to happen or after, having spent weeks down in the deep, fighting darkspawn regularly, probably not getting much rest, living on a diet of deep mushrooms, that he should have fought the law in Kirkwall and fled just when he secured his families claim to the old estate?

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

There's nothing brave about abandoning a human being - no less a sister - to a monstrous enviornment of torture where mages are being made tranquil illegally.

It isn't selfish to ignore your sister's wishes because you don't agree with them?

You mean abandoning your sister to a Circle of Magi where you know mages are being illegally made tranquil, and worse? No, it wouldn't be selfish, it would mean Hawke's a human being and not human garbage.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

And do you realize just how incredibly stupid Hawke fighting those Templars would have been*whenever my Hawke fought alone at that point she got curbstomped* especially with his/her defenseless mother and uncle in the house and that  it would have brought both the  wrath of the ENTIRE Order as well as the city guard*as I doubt Aveline would be able to cover for Hawke in this case*  right on they're doorstep?

You're acting as though Hawke hasn't shown his ability to kill multiple templars throughout the storyline. For all his faults, Hawke is exceptionably good at killing - templars included.

Except that said sister is willingly taking that risk to protect her family from inprisonment or execution and that Hawke has friends in the Templar Order that will must likely keep her safe?

Yes Hawke can kill a SMALL group of Templars with 3  ALLIES*if they soloed against them they''d be dead* but against two WHOLE armies and alone they'd be dead before they could lift they're sword.

[EmperorSahlertz]

It would be the BRAVE and SMART thing to do... (If I'm repeating myself (which I am), it is simply to make a point).

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 09 août 2011 - 04:43 .

[London]

Agreed here with Arcane Warrior; I think in CutScenes we are supposed to be ignoring gameplay mechanics where Hawke can be shot with 7 arrows and then just chug a potion; I would have been easy to station a group of arches at Gamlen's door step, poised to unload on them if they tried to exit if necessary.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It would be the BRAVE and SMART thing to do... (If I'm repeating myself (which I am), it is simply to make a point).

To be a coward? I respectfully disagree.

[Rifneno]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Kerras does say to "save the pretty one for questioning," so he seems to be an equal opportunity rapist.

Ahh yes, I forgot about that. How charming.

And Bethany mentions in her letter going out of her way to avoid Alrik, so it doesn't seem to have anything to do with any reputation Hawke cultivated. I doubt she'd even admit if something did happen, especially in a letter that's likely to be read by the Chantry and the Order of Templars before arriving at the Amell manor. I honestly hate that the writers simply had Hawke standing by like an idiot while Cullen took Bethany away to the same Circle of Kirkwall that he knows made Karl tranquil illegally; it removed any desire I had to play as a warrior or rogue Hawke.

Once in the Gallows at the final battle when Hawke is chatting up his allies, I honestly expected to find out Bethany had been raped. A lot. In a way, it'd have even made the story more fair. Hawke's mother is murdered in an incredibly sick way by a mage, but his sister does just fine during six years in the quite possibly the worst place on Thedas. Not that I'd want the story to have taken that turn, I don't think I could stomach it, but it certainly would've portrayed the templars as they should have been.

I'll hold my tongue on Bethany's abduction since it seems that topic already nearly derailed the thread.

KBomb wrote...

Things in the Kirkwall Circle were falling apart and the circumstances were becoming dire--I think that was the point. I consider the justice system broke, but a necessary infrastructure nonetheless. There is no argument from me that it needed mending. By you saying the only way to change the circumstances was “cutting open a lot of templars” is not so different than the templars who think the only way to stop mages from becoming blood mages or abominations is to cull them all. You’re no better.

Opinion duly noted.

I guess because the situation suits your cause, you were happy to deal some death. Anyone who sees it “gleeful” or maybe the ones who had to kill mages because they were attacking them--is also righteous in dealing the death?

I was happy to deal some death because those templars are a cancer upon society. Your self-defense argument hold no water because I was specifically talking about a situation where the templars as a whole are completely the aggressors. They were okay with busting in and killing helpless prisoners, even children, whose only crime was being born with a similar ability as Anders. Therefor, yes, I'm okay with killing them to a man. And if Val Royeaux is okay with what they did, I'm okay with leaving less of the Chantry remaining than Tevinter left of Arlathan.

No. It isn’t at all like that. The RoA happens when blood mages and abominations have corrupted the Circle and the line between mage and abomination is too blurry to recognize. At this point, they are a danger not only to themselves but others. Innocent citizens who haven’t got the training or skills to defend themselves against the onslaught of demons. And as far as I saw, the Circle was teeming with abominations and blood mages.

http://en.wikipedia....ause_and_effect

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No no no, you can't start using logic against the pro-mage fellas, they will just start calling you a genocidal maniac...

Anyone else ever notice it's always the pro-templar folks who take opinions about a fictional group personally? I've never once seen a pro-mage poster complain about people saying they murder women and stitch up pieces into a patchwork zombie.  It's always the templar defends who think "the templars are evil" means "you, the person I'm talking to on the Internet, who never even seriously threatened an actual person's life, are a genocidal madman."

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What makes you think Hawke stands any chance against Cullen?

Pattern recognition.

SebastianDA wrote...

I still think the reality of the situation might have called for ending the violence as quickly as possible, and the way to do that was not to kill off 100's of templars (which while demonized in the game, still must have had genuinely good people with families, children, etc. off-screen).

Yeah, people argued the same crap at the Nuremberg Trials. "I'm not a bad guy, I was just following orders!" Didn't really fly then either. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

SO now the Templars should have been depeicted as rapists, one and all? Perhaps the very fact that Bethany wasn't raped, even once, in what you all seem to think is a house of horrors, simply shows how twisted a perception you actually have of the Templars.

[Rifneno]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

SO now the Templars should have been depeicted as rapists, one and all? Perhaps the very fact that Bethany wasn't raped, even once, in what you all seem to think is a house of horrors, simply shows how twisted a perception you actually have of the Templars.

The fact that I expected to hear it as the templars were preparing to murder every mage in the Circle for a crime a single apostate committed indicates otherwise.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It would be the BRAVE and SMART thing... Havn't you been listening?

I have. I still can't believe my eyes. You seriously believe this?

[OLDFARTKEYWESTER]

GavrielKay wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

This description does not fit the Chantry, at least in my opinion. The Chantry has inflicted tons of misery and suffering on many groups (the elves, the mages, the Rivani, or just about anyone on the recieving end of an Exalted March). But the Chantry as an organization did not do so for the lulz, or because it wants to take over the world and suffer. It actually believes itself a force of good, and that those who refuse the Chant or the Chantry are misguided souls who face eternal damnation.

You had a well written post, but for myself I disagree on this point.  I think committing atrocities in the name of "good" or being so self righteous that you honestly believe it is better to force others to submit to your dogma rather than let them do their own thing or come to you naturally is at least as "evil" as doing bad things for purely selfish reasons.

We let people off the hook too easily, IMO, when all they have to do is say, "my faith dictates" and then all is, if not forgiven, then somehow understood as well intentioned.

Someone can rob a dozen banks in an evil greedy spree, and just because they have intentions of donating the money to fight cancer doesn't make it "good."

There is an interesting comment from Grand Cleric Elthina, in the context of the "heretical" Qunari which I think applies, and gives the official line of the chantry regarding heresy - that the Chantry considers differing beliefs like the Qun a challenge, not a threat, a concept that the average believer does not share.  Like any huge religious entity, the Chantry tries to come across as moderate in its approach to other beliefs, including that of the mages who object to Chantry supervision.  But individuals and small groups of believers often take what the Chantry calls a challenge as a threat instead, which provokes such atrocities as the anti-Quari massacre. 

The positive approach to opposition to one's cherished belief system is to take it as an opportunity (challenge) to prove the superiority of that system, while the negative approach is to feel threatened by dissenting beliefs and go to extremes to stamp them out. Unfortunately we see this same dynamic played out way too often in real life, and it is interesting that the same dynamic should be reflected in this game.

[KotorEffect3]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

SO now the Templars should have been depeicted as rapists, one and all? Perhaps the very fact that Bethany wasn't raped, even once, in what you all seem to think is a house of horrors, simply shows how twisted a perception you actually have of the Templars.

Someone else pointed out either in this thread or in another thread, that Bethany most likely had some templars looking out for her (Thrask, Keron, maybe even Cullen) because of her association with Hawke and if something were to happen to her and word got back to Hawke that would be too  much of a problem to deal with even for Meredith.  I know my Hawkes would have gone ballistic.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

OLDFARTKEYWESTER wrote...


There is an interesting comment from Grand Cleric Elthina, in the context of the "heretical" Qunari which I think applies, and gives the official line of the chantry regarding heresy - that the Chantry considers differing beliefs like the Qun a challenge, not a threat, a concept that the average believer does not share.  Like any huge religious entity, the Chantry tries to come across as moderate in its approach to other beliefs, including that of the mages who object to Chantry supervision.  But individuals and small groups of believers often take what the Chantry calls a challenge as a threat instead, which provokes such atrocities as the anti-Quari massacre. 

The positive approach to opposition to one's cherished belief system is to take it as an opportunity (challenge) to prove the superiority of that system, while the negative approach is to feel threatened by dissenting beliefs and go to extremes to stamp them out. Unfortunately we see this same dynamic played out way too often in real life, and it is interesting that the same dynamic should be reflected in this game.

If the Chantry as a whole followed that line of reasoning, I would probably respect them more. However, it's crystal clear looking at history that they don't. The Chantry as an organization has always treated dissent and heresy with violence, aka their fondness for declaring an exalted march as a means to solve every problem of oppistion.

I'm sure there are moderates in the Chantry, as individuals, who support more peaceful methods of meeting opposing belief systems, but the organization as a whole? No. Hell, they marched on Rivain and slaughtered a bunch of people where who would not revert from the qun. That's pretty much how the Chantry deals with competition, in general.

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It would be the BRAVE and SMART thing to do... (If I'm repeating myself (which I am), it is simply to make a point).

To be a coward? I respectfully disagree.

There's a difference between courage and stupidity.

[Shadow Fox]

Rifneno wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Kerras does say to "save the pretty one for questioning," so he seems to be an equal opportunity rapist.

Ahh yes, I forgot about that. How charming.

And Bethany mentions in her letter going out of her way to avoid Alrik, so it doesn't seem to have anything to do with any reputation Hawke cultivated. I doubt she'd even admit if something did happen, especially in a letter that's likely to be read by the Chantry and the Order of Templars before arriving at the Amell manor. I honestly hate that the writers simply had Hawke standing by like an idiot while Cullen took Bethany away to the same Circle of Kirkwall that he knows made Karl tranquil illegally; it removed any desire I had to play as a warrior or rogue Hawke.

Once in the Gallows at the final battle when Hawke is chatting up his allies, I honestly expected to find out Bethany had been raped. A lot. In a way, it'd have even made the story more fair. Hawke's mother is murdered in an incredibly sick way by a mage, but his sister does just fine during six years in the quite possibly the worst place on Thedas. Not that I'd want the story to have taken that turn, I don't think I could stomach it, but it certainly would've portrayed the templars as they should have been.

I'll hold my tongue on Bethany's abduction since it seems that topic already nearly derailed the thread.

KBomb wrote...

Things in the Kirkwall Circle were falling apart and the circumstances were becoming dire--I think that was the point. I consider the justice system broke, but a necessary infrastructure nonetheless. There is no argument from me that it needed mending. By you saying the only way to change the circumstances was “cutting open a lot of templars” is not so different than the templars who think the only way to stop mages from becoming blood mages or abominations is to cull them all. You’re no better.

Opinion duly noted.

I guess because the situation suits your cause, you were happy to deal some death. Anyone who sees it “gleeful” or maybe the ones who had to kill mages because they were attacking them--is also righteous in dealing the death?

I was happy to deal some death because those templars are a cancer upon society. Your self-defense argument hold no water because I was specifically talking about a situation where the templars as a whole are completely the aggressors. They were okay with busting in and killing helpless prisoners, even children, whose only crime was being born with a similar ability as Anders. Therefor, yes, I'm okay with killing them to a man. And if Val Royeaux is okay with what they did, I'm okay with leaving less of the Chantry remaining than Tevinter left of Arlathan.

No. It isn’t at all like that. The RoA happens when blood mages and abominations have corrupted the Circle and the line between mage and abomination is too blurry to recognize. At this point, they are a danger not only to themselves but others. Innocent citizens who haven’t got the training or skills to defend themselves against the onslaught of demons. And as far as I saw, the Circle was teeming with abominations and blood mages.

http://en.wikipedia....ause_and_effect

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No no no, you can't start using logic against the pro-mage fellas, they will just start calling you a genocidal maniac...

Anyone else ever notice it's always the pro-templar folks who take opinions about a fictional group personally? I've never once seen a pro-mage poster complain about people saying they murder women and stitch up pieces into a patchwork zombie.  It's always the templar defends who think "the templars are evil" means "you, the person I'm talking to on the Internet, who never even seriously threatened an actual person's life, are a genocidal madman."

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What makes you think Hawke stands any chance against Cullen?

Pattern recognition.

SebastianDA wrote...

I still think the reality of the situation might have called for ending the violence as quickly as possible, and the way to do that was not to kill off 100's of templars (which while demonized in the game, still must have had genuinely good people with families, children, etc. off-screen).

Yeah, people argued the same crap at the Nuremberg Trials. "I'm not a bad guy, I was just following orders!" Didn't really fly then either. 

After reading this post I can see arguing with you is a lost cause especially if you think that having the Templars as a whole protrayed as rapists would "balance things out".

About your cause and effect argument that can also be applied to the mages who  terrorize the public causing the Templars to crack down harder on mages as a whole ofcourse you'll just lay the blame solely at the Templars like you always do.

Sorry the **** argument doesn't fly with me because the Templars are right about the mages being dangerous just by they're existance and untill there is a widespread way to resist magic the Templars are a necessary evil, if it was elves they were persecuting for the sake of being elves  then you'd have a valid argument.

[Shadow Fox]

Ryzaki wrote...

Ugh GW Bethany's resentment irritated me.

You should be happy you're alive, not snarling at Hawke because he saved your ass.

At least with Carver's snarling it had been there since day one so it was a broken record. Bethany on the other hand...

Actually I saw her resentment as justified:

You've effectively condemmed her to a cursed life*hearing the Archdemon,fighting the effects of the  Taint and being unable to even have a semblence of a normal life because of it* and slow death*via the Taint*.

[Rifneno]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

After reading this post I can see arguing with you is a lost cause

Believe me, the feeling is mutual.