29 réponses à ce sujet

[amanasleep]

Which class is stronger?  I want to play a Cavalier, but F/C seems better in most respects, like access to Cleric spells Level 5-7 and Cleric HLA's.  The main benefits of the Paladin seem to be:

1. Generally higher effective casting level, allowing early access to Skeleton Warriors, more effective dispels, and more damaging Holy Smites.
2. Carsomyr.
3. Generally better weapon selection, including melee boosts like offhand Belm/Kundane.
4. Very Strong Saves and Immunities.

Are there any other advantages I'm missing?

[AnonymousHero]

Are you playing solo or in a party?

1. True, though a F/C or Cavalier is probably better off just using buffs and melee and ignoring offensive spells (in most cases). Skeleton Warriors are a huge deal, though.
2. Check.
3. Check.
4. A dwarven F/C has much better saves than a Cavalier due to the shorty bonuses (and 18 CON).

[Krazy Solo]

I might be wrong, but Paladin in BG only achieve lvl 3 cleric spells. As well they only start to get these spells at lvl 9+. Paladin get a blend of Fighter and Cleric HLAs. Including Devas and WW if i recall.

Basically what you should ask yourself, do you want to be a spellcaster or a Fighter with some casting abilities. Really the only difference between the two are the Paladins passives vs the full spell progression of Cleric. Also to note Cleric get higher turn Undead as well. Another thing to note is Alignment restriction for Paladins.

Once again which is best is based on preference and the end goal of the player.

[amanasleep]

@AnonymousHero:

Solo. In a party the you either take Keldorn if you want Carsomyr or a another Divine caster if you want high level Divine spellcasting.

I would rate high level dispels as pretty useful prior to getting Carsomyr. Mental Domination is also surprisingly useful.

Dwarves bonuses top out at +5, so although they will ultimately have +3 better than a Paladin, for most of SoA they will have equal or weaker saves due to the Paladin's level advantage.

@Krazy Solo

Paladins get up to C4 spells, and they do get Devas. In fact, this is another advantage over F/C in that they get them on the ability menu instead of as memorized spells, so they can get far more castings much earlier than the F/C.

The Paladin Turn Undead ends up better than the F/C because even though it is 2 levels lower, the Paladin levels faster than the F/C's Cleric levels. By the time the Paladin hits 12th level they have equal Turn Undead ability.

I like they idea of playing the classic Paladin. My plan is to defeat Firkraag with a Cavalier at the earliest opportunity, then go immediately to Chapter 3 to fight the forces of evil.

[niebezimienny]

I would go F/C, because he becomes much more powerful in the endgame. With righteous magic and critical strike and imp haste either from ring of Gaxx or the improved cloak or another party member, you will have an insane damage output when dual wielding. If you have multiclass grandmastery/true grandmastery mods it will be even more sick. If you're going with a large party then a paladin seems a better choice, he will become powerful quickly but then he will stop improving, whereas a F/C keeps getting better and better.

[amanasleep]

niebezimienny wrote...

I would go F/C, because he becomes much more powerful in the endgame. With righteous magic and critical strike and imp haste either from ring of Gaxx or the improved cloak or another party member, you will have an insane damage output when dual wielding. If you have multiclass grandmastery/true grandmastery mods it will be even more sick. If you're going with a large party then a paladin seems a better choice, he will become powerful quickly but then he will stop improving, whereas a F/C keeps getting better and better.

The Paladin can get the same Imp Haste and 25 Strength as the F/C, so the only advantage is the max damage from Righteous magic.   But mods aside, the Paladin gets more attacks since they can off-hand Belm.

[AnonymousHero]

For F/C, I'd say the greatest direct advantage over Cavalier is probably the high-level protective spells. Chaotic Commands and Death Ward are hard to beat in terms of defence. The Globe of Blades HLA can also be surprisingly useful.

Given the amount of EXP available in SoA (even before leaving for Spellhold), I don't think the EXP advantage is that great.

EDIT: In vanilla, I'd probably give the edge to the F/C, but either class can probably beat it relatively easily.

Modifié par AnonymousHero, 07 août 2011 - 07:52 .

[amanasleep]

AnonymousHero wrote...

For F/C, I'd say the greatest direct advantage over Cavalier is probably the high-level protective spells. Chaotic Commands and Death Ward are hard to beat in terms of defence. The Globe of Blades HLA can also be surprisingly useful.

Given the amount of EXP available in SoA (even before leaving for Spellhold), I don't think the EXP advantage is that great.

EDIT: In vanilla, I'd probably give the edge to the F/C, but either class can probably beat it relatively easily.

Paladins get Death Ward (it's level 4), and Devas get Globe of Blades.  The only real vulnerability for a Cavalier is Maze and Imprisonment, although maximizing Magic resistance helps with that.

The exp issue is somewhat significant, though not overly so in vanilla.  The major difference is the F/C needs about 1 Million more xp to get Skeleton Warriors.

Modifié par amanasleep, 07 août 2011 - 08:04 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

You can't use Kundane/Belm while swinging Carsomyr. While not swinging Carsomyr, there is much benefit to the FoA/Easthaven combination, which doesn't leave any room for any bladed secondary weapons either.
So the FC has more difficulties dispelling the protections of their opposition, but if an enemy is hit with FoA, chances are they're taking damage, so you should be able to cope.
Have you thought about the RC combination, amanasleep? It's mostly like the FC, the biggest differences being race restriction and availability of druid spells. Iron Skins and Insect spells are pretty cool.
(or how about you go Batman and Robin, you as a Carsomyr-swinging paladin with Viconia as CT wondergirl - (100% MR and good physical resistances)?)

[Carinna]

@ amanasleep:

Have you noticed that whenever someone says something other than the Paladin is best, you immediately argue in favor of the Paladin. This right here says: GO PLAY THE PALADIN. It's obviously what you really want to do.

[Krazy Solo]

I'm a Pro Paladin, just F/C will be far better overall end game compared to Paladin. Paladin major advantage is getting both Cleric/Fighter HLA without multi or dual classing.

[amanasleep]

@Carinna: LOL you are right, of course. I posted this topic mostly to see if I was missing something. I want to play the Cavalier, but F/C seemed mostly better and nobody ever seems to play any Paladin besides Inquisitor, so I thought maybe there's some huge drawback I couldn't see. I still think it's an interesting discussion, as they are very similar.

@H_T: Agreed, but was just comparing damage output to the F/C, that has no other option but FoA/DoE. Cav can choose to use that combo, Carsomyr, or something else (I would argue that in SoA, Celestial Fury/Belm is better because enemy saves are not so great and you end up with more damage dealt).

Didn't want to compare R/C here because, well, they are objectively superior to F/C and Cavs.

I have thought about a duo run with Viconia, but I was thinking a low Wis Sorcerer For Limited Wish Vampires.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Combat efficiency = Durability * DPS. If you can multiply your effective HP by use of resistances, then that's worth a small decrease in offensive power.
Since the cavalier only has access to level 4 cleric spells, he will not be able to achieve strength 25 by himself though (unless my memory is completely off), since Holy Power only gives you Strength 18.00, and if you add DUHM, you reach 22. You'll need to get to the Underdark for the Frost Giant Belt.
To get a comparable damage to a strength 25 Celestial Fury/Belm Wielder you'd need the fourth FoA head, but fortunately that one's is relatively easily acquired (it's only on the second level of WK*).
The FC will likely go for ** in flails and maces (against those few undead that won't go Poof the minute you enter the room) + *** in 2 weapon fighting and later he might invest in slings (for the occasional Sling of Seeking action) in single weapon style for his FoA GWWs. Compared to your planned paladin (who is planning on using two handed swords, katana, flails, two different fighting styles and possibly also some anti-undead weaponry (and Belm?) the cleric will likely be able to properly master his (relatively few) weapons a lot faster.

Edit:
* I was thinking of the G3 BG2 Tweakpack component that allows you to update ToB items in SoA.

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 08 août 2011 - 02:01 .

[amanasleep]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

Combat efficiency = Durability * DPS. If you can multiply your effective HP by use of resistances, then that's worth a small decrease in offensive power.

I generally agree, but I don't think it applies when you have powerful on-hit effects like stun or slow involved.  In these cases, the extra hits are disabling enemies, which means that they aren't damaging you.  The extra attacks from Belm are better than the 20% damage reduction from DoE.

Since the cavalier only has access to level 4 cleric spells, he will not be able to achieve strength 25 by himself though (unless my memory is completely off), since Holy Power only gives you Strength 18.00, and if you add DUHM, you reach 22. You'll need to get to the Underdark for the Frost Giant Belt.

Actually, Holy Power doesn't work on Paladins, at least not in my install.  However the Thac0 bonus is calculated, it actually reduces it.  I want to put some calls in over at G3, but it appears that the effect of the spell is to swap the Warrior and Priest tables, so Priests end up with Warrior Thac0, but a Warrior casting it ends up with Priest Thac0.  The 18/00 STR is irrelevant, of course, since your Paladin should have exceptional str already.

DUHM adds 1 STR/ 3 levels, so the max STR added is 6.  That gets you to 25 with only the Hill Giant Belt.  Of course, you'll have to wait until level 18 to do this, but it can be achieved earlier with potions, which in a solo game are more than plentiful.

To get a comparable damage to a strength 25 Celestial Fury/Belm Wielder you'd need the fourth FoA head, but fortunately that one's is relatively easily acquired (it's only on the second level of WK*).
The FC will likely go for ** in flails and maces (against those few undead that won't go Poof the minute you enter the room) + *** in 2 weapon fighting and later he might invest in slings (for the occasional Sling of Seeking action) in single weapon style for his FoA GWWs. Compared to your planned paladin (who is planning on using two handed swords, katana, flails, two different fighting styles and possibly also some anti-undead weaponry (and Belm?) the cleric will likely be able to properly master his (relatively few) weapons a lot faster.

The Cavalier would start with ** in Two Weapon, Two Handed Swords, and Axes and add ** in Katanas later, followed by * in Two-Hander.  The only question is whether it's necessary to use Dragonslayer to try and defeat Firkraag at the earliest possible time.  I would actually skip FoA in favor of CFury just for flavor, but would never do both.

In any event all needed proficiencies are in place by 12th level or 1.2m xp.  The F/C in your example would have 7 pips by that point, just enough to dual wield and use the MoD, but not have Slings.  I would definitely recommend going for Slings before maces.

edit: I would never put the 3rd pip in 2-weapon.  Don't know why people do this when pips are tight.  +2 to your off hand Thac0 is almost never as good as specialization or gaining the ability to use a new weapon.  So in my F/C build I would start with ** in Two Weapon, Flails, and Slings, with * in Maces.

Modifié par amanasleep, 08 août 2011 - 04:34 .

[Nazo]

I think people generally choose Inquisitor over Cavalier because the dispel magic innate ability is just so insanely useful, as well as the bonus hold & charm resistance, that it outweighs the minor damage bonuses and resistances that a Cavalier gets.

It's not that Cavalier is *bad*, or broken, just that Inquisitors are standing right there with bags of delicious candy all for you.

[amanasleep]

I absolutely agree about the Inquisitor. I just get bored playing them because their abilities are so OP and I miss Paladin Spellcasting and Turning Undead. Keep in mind that a vanilla Paladin (or Ranger) Dispel Magic is still better than Mage's, so in many cases they can still use it. Inquisitor dispel is much more useful in a party. Solo, the PC levels up high enough that most conventional dispels will work.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Huh. For some reason I remembered DUHM as maxing out at level 12. It's really been a long time...

[amanasleep]

You might be thinking of PnP Paladins, who have a max casting level of 12 (Rangers have 9). In BG2 this is not enforced, which is what makes non-Inquisitor Paladins even halfway viable.

[hannibal555]

I don't know about the unpatched vanilla game,
but in BG2 with official patch + Baldurdash fixback or G3 fixpack,
the Paladin will behave correctly as in PnP.
That is, his max caster level is 12, and he won't get skeleton warriors and so on.
I tested this with several spells, and my paladin's caster level is indeed 12 despite being a level 21 Cavalier.

Modifié par hannibal555, 09 août 2011 - 04:41 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Wasn't your caster level simply 9 levels below your paladin level though? (seem to remember something like that, but I've been proven wrong in this thread before)

[Krazy Solo]

If i remember correctly the Paladin caster lvl is determine when you start casting spells from that point forward. Only exception is paladins don't have a cap on the caster lvl because their caster lvls surpass the cut of lvl of 20. Meaning you need lvl 29 Paladin to have caster lvl 20.  If i read correctly the fixes change the coding so paladin and rangers correctly stop gaining caster lvls pass lvl 20 as per PnP rules.

Modifié par Krazy Solo, 09 août 2011 - 05:29 .

[amanasleep]

I tested L16 Cav getting Skeleton warriors, and L25 cav getting 25% resistance via Armor of Faith.

Nevertheless, I have some other bugs in my current install, and since hannibal and H_T experiences seem to agree that Paladins and Ranger casting levels follow PnP I will have to investigate further.

edit: I found this over at G3.  My testing may be off, but seems to suggest that although Paladin and Ranger caster level is reduced by 9 and 7 respectively, it is not capped.

Modifié par amanasleep, 09 août 2011 - 05:36 .

[Krazy Solo]

Yeah like i was trying to state above that both Paladin and Rangers have no true cap on their caster lvls in the game, but in PnP it cuts off at 20 like all other casters if i recalled from my days of playing pnp. Just means paladin reaches caster lvl 20 at lvl 29, but in BG paladins caster lvl is actually higher than that because of the uncap limit. Meaning you can exceed lvl 20 caster with ranger and paladins. Making some of their buffs and debuffs the strongest in game wise.

Modifié par Krazy Solo, 09 août 2011 - 05:44 .

[hannibal555]

amanasleep wrote...

edit: I found this over at G3.  My testing may be off, but seems to suggest that although Paladin and Ranger caster level is reduced by 9 and 7 respectively, it is not capped.

You're correct (well it's actually reduced by 7 (ranger) and 8 (paladin)).
This means my test paladin was caster level 13 (being level 21 -8 = 13) and thus not able to summon skeleton warriors, which he would be able at level 23 then.

That's interesting. Still though, not this powerful if he's able to summon several Devas before even being able to summon skeleton warriors.

And in BG2 without expansion his max caster level will be level 9 as the manual states (17 is max level, minus 8 results in caster level 9).

Modifié par hannibal555, 09 août 2011 - 06:02 .

[amanasleep]

In certain circumstances the Skeleton Warriors will be more useful for their magic resistance (Beholders, for instance), but that's a good point. Still, it means that a paladin can expect to get high level Holy Smite damage and Armor of Faith damage reduction...eventually.