Having recently purchased and finished Legacy, I have to say I'm disappointed that, once again, choice doesn't seem to matter. Regardless of who Hawke sides with, it's the same conclusion - the darkspawn seems to have possessed the surviving Grey Warden, and Hawke isn't capable of realizing this as a possibility, probably for the same reason he didn't do anything about Meredith becoming a dictator for three years in the city-state he was living in. Is there a reason that Mike Laidlaw mentioned that there was an issue about the significance of choice in Dragon Age 2, that they were going to rectify those issues, and then we were providing with a DLC where choice, once again, didn't matter?
So Legacy is another story where Hawke's choices don't matter.
Débuté par
LobselVith8
, août 07 2011 08:28
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#2
Posté 07 août 2011 - 08:38
Rifneno
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It's still less of a lie than Witch Hunt's "there will be answers." But yeah, that's it in a nutshell.
#3
Posté 07 août 2011 - 08:42
whykikyouwhy
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Hmm. I think it might be less about Hawke-the-protagonist's choices not mattering, and more about Malcolm Hawke's choices mattering a great deal. The legacy of bad choices - the legacy of compromises made. I think Hawke's story may really be about making amends in some fashion - ultimately.
#4
Posté 07 août 2011 - 08:46
HopHazzard
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I've pretty much accepted the fact that DA2 is the story of how it sucks to be Hawke, and nothing he/she does can change that. I don't want that to become a trend in future DA titles, but I've made peace with the fact that Hawke is fate's lady dog. Not everyone can be a shaper of destiny, and life isn't so much about what happens to you so much as how you react to it.
That said, yes to more agency in DA3.
That said, yes to more agency in DA3.
#5
Posté 07 août 2011 - 08:52
The Baconer
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Yes, it does make Hawke look once again incredibly thick. Whatever. Hopefully our next encounter with Corypheus doesn't have to end in violence.
#6
Guest_Puddi III_*
Posté 07 août 2011 - 08:57
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He said they were looking to rectify the issues he mentioned, that didn't mean all the issues would be rectified in this one DLC. For instance he also brought up companion outfits. Also, the choice may be significant still in terms of world state, and it's certainly significant in terms of roleplaying and how it defines your character.
#7
Posté 07 août 2011 - 09:08
TEWR
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what the robot bear wearing the fancy top hat and monocle while sporting an evil twirly mustache said
#8
Posté 07 août 2011 - 09:12
hoorayforicecream
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I see people complaining about this all the time, but it really depends on how you define a choice that "matters". What makes it matter? Does it need an epilogue placard (e.g. end of DAO) for it to matter? Do people in the game need to acknowledge that you made a choice (e.g. the criers in Orzammar after choosing a king) for it to matter? Do you need to not be able to do something later because of a choice you made (e.g. gave Feynriel to Torpor) for it to matter?
There was a choice that I thought mattered in Legacy - Hawke had to choose between Larius and Janeka. When I chose Janeka, I went through a different story than I did when I chose Larius, with different puzzles and different outcomes. I ended up in the same place eventually, but that doesn't change the fact that I took a different path to get there. I don't see this as any different than being forced to face Sarevok at the end of BG1, or the Archdemon at the end of DAO. No matter what I do, I will end up there eventually. Does that mean all of the choices up to that point don't matter?
There was a choice that I thought mattered in Legacy - Hawke had to choose between Larius and Janeka. When I chose Janeka, I went through a different story than I did when I chose Larius, with different puzzles and different outcomes. I ended up in the same place eventually, but that doesn't change the fact that I took a different path to get there. I don't see this as any different than being forced to face Sarevok at the end of BG1, or the Archdemon at the end of DAO. No matter what I do, I will end up there eventually. Does that mean all of the choices up to that point don't matter?
#9
Posté 07 août 2011 - 09:17
Zanallen
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I'm pretty sure that the devs said that the choices in a DLC couldn't really have an impact because they are meant to be self-contained.
#10
Posté 07 août 2011 - 09:48
LobselVith8
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hoorayforicecream wrote...
I see people complaining about this all the time, but it really depends on how you define a choice that "matters". What makes it matter? Does it need an epilogue placard (e.g. end of DAO) for it to matter? Do people in the game need to acknowledge that you made a choice (e.g. the criers in Orzammar after choosing a king) for it to matter? Do you need to not be able to do something later because of a choice you made (e.g. gave Feynriel to Torpor) for it to matter?
It can to be a choice that can have different outcomes, depending on how you handled it (i.e. Fallout New Vegas, where you can make a choice that can have repercussions within the context of the storyline).
hoorayforicecream wrote...
There was a choice that I thought mattered in Legacy - Hawke had to choose between Larius and Janeka. When I chose Janeka, I went through a different story than I did when I chose Larius, with different puzzles and different outcomes. I ended up in the same place eventually, but that doesn't change the fact that I took a different path to get there. I don't see this as any different than being forced to face Sarevok at the end of BG1, or the Archdemon at the end of DAO. No matter what I do, I will end up there eventually. Does that mean all of the choices up to that point don't matter?
There was a choice that lead to the same conclusion (more than likely possessed Warden that Hawke is too dull to suspect is possessed), which is the same thing that people were complaining about with the mage and templar endings being pretty much identical.
#11
Posté 07 août 2011 - 10:06
EmperorSahlertz
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How again, was Hawke supposed to know that Corypheus MAY have transfered body? He isn't a Grey Warden, nor is his sibling senior enough in the order to know that the Archdemon got a similar ability.
#12
Posté 07 août 2011 - 10:16
Giltspur
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I believe the suggestion was that DLC's aren't really long enough to address the concerns about choice in DA2 and that that sort of thing would have to be addressed in lengthier content.
Modifié par Giltspur, 07 août 2011 - 10:17 .
#13
Posté 07 août 2011 - 10:24
LobselVith8
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EmperorSahlertz wrote...
How again, was Hawke supposed to know that Corypheus MAY have transfered body? He isn't a Grey Warden, nor is his sibling senior enough in the order to know that the Archdemon got a similar ability.
If only Hawke lived in a world where people could be possessed...
#14
Posté 07 août 2011 - 10:28
Zanallen
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LobselVith8 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
How again, was Hawke supposed to know that Corypheus MAY have transfered body? He isn't a Grey Warden, nor is his sibling senior enough in the order to know that the Archdemon got a similar ability.
If only Hawke lived in a world where people could be possessed...
So Hawke is supposed to assume that a darkspawn has the ability to possess someone and not just demons?
#15
Posté 07 août 2011 - 10:28
TEWR
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The thing is Lob, this DLC was meant to tell a story. The choice doesn't have an impact yet. That doesn't mean it won't ever.
Warden's Keep was the same way. The end result was the same (Veil gets mended and someone dies), and you don't have a meaning to whatever choice you picked. It's up to the subsequent games and DLC to give a choice in a DLC meaning. You don't know that Avernus will make any breakthroughs or live much longer if you spare him. Before Awakening and DA2, it was a choice that seemed like it had no meaning, but when those two things came along it did have meaning.
Sophia Dryden less so. I didn't like how Bioware made it so that she had to die by Hawke's hand. I'm also wondering why people didn't suspect that something was wrong with a woman who looked like a corpse in an obviously ****ty state.
Warden's Keep was the same way. The end result was the same (Veil gets mended and someone dies), and you don't have a meaning to whatever choice you picked. It's up to the subsequent games and DLC to give a choice in a DLC meaning. You don't know that Avernus will make any breakthroughs or live much longer if you spare him. Before Awakening and DA2, it was a choice that seemed like it had no meaning, but when those two things came along it did have meaning.
Sophia Dryden less so. I didn't like how Bioware made it so that she had to die by Hawke's hand. I'm also wondering why people didn't suspect that something was wrong with a woman who looked like a corpse in an obviously ****ty state.
#17
Posté 07 août 2011 - 10:30
TEWR
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LobselVith8 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
How again, was Hawke supposed to know that Corypheus MAY have transfered body? He isn't a Grey Warden, nor is his sibling senior enough in the order to know that the Archdemon got a similar ability.
If only Hawke lived in a world where people could be possessed...
There's never been an incident before that a Darkspawn of any nature can possess anyone by transferring bodies. Hawke can definitely assume something is off about Janeka or Larius, but he has no evidence to allow him to act on anything.
#18
Posté 07 août 2011 - 10:32
LobselVith8
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Zanallen wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
How again, was Hawke supposed to know that Corypheus MAY have transfered body? He isn't a Grey Warden, nor is his sibling senior enough in the order to know that the Archdemon got a similar ability.
If only Hawke lived in a world where people could be possessed...
So Hawke is supposed to assume that a darkspawn has the ability to possess someone and not just demons?
When the person in question was a dying Grey Warden who was so corrupted by the taint that he was crouching and barely coherent, and is now speaking coherently, standing tall, and smirking?
#19
Posté 07 août 2011 - 10:36
Morroian
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Diverging paths within the game would seem to be fairly significant to me.LobselVith8 wrote...
Having recently purchased and finished Legacy, I have to say I'm disappointed that, once again, choice doesn't seem to matter. Regardless of who Hawke sides with, it's the same conclusion - the darkspawn seems to have possessed the surviving Grey Warden, and Hawke isn't capable of realizing this as a possibility, probably for the same reason he didn't do anything about Meredith becoming a dictator for three years in the city-state he was living in. Is there a reason that Mike Laidlaw mentioned that there was an issue about the significance of choice in Dragon Age 2,
#20
Posté 07 août 2011 - 10:40
exskeeny
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Well, Larius ( as I have only had one playthrough) says that Corypheus sway on him has been released so he feels a new lease of life(heavy paraphrasing). Why or how should Hawke know differently?LobselVith8 wrote...
Zanallen wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
How again, was Hawke supposed to know that Corypheus MAY have transfered body? He isn't a Grey Warden, nor is his sibling senior enough in the order to know that the Archdemon got a similar ability.
If only Hawke lived in a world where people could be possessed...
So Hawke is supposed to assume that a darkspawn has the ability to possess someone and not just demons?
When the person in question was a dying Grey Warden who was so corrupted by the taint that he was crouching and barely coherent, and is now speaking coherently, standing tall, and smirking?
#21
Posté 07 août 2011 - 10:41
Morroian
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Hawke isn't a warden and wouldn't know much about the taint. For all he knows Cory could have been making Larius worse,LobselVith8 wrote...
When the person in question was a dying Grey Warden who was so corrupted by the taint that he was crouching and barely coherent, and is now speaking coherently, standing tall, and smirking?
#22
Posté 07 août 2011 - 10:41
EmperorSahlertz
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Smirking to the camera... And Hawke also lives in a world of magic, he can just aswell assume that he was somehow healed, or at the least that his condition temporarily improved. He could easily assume that the reason for Larius' behavior was because of the influence of Corypheus, and that with Corypheus' death, Larius' condition improved. There could be hundreds of different explanations.
What Hawke is NOT supposed to even remotely suspect, but we as the players are supposed to infer, is to suspect a Darkspawn would be able to possess anyone.
What Hawke is NOT supposed to even remotely suspect, but we as the players are supposed to infer, is to suspect a Darkspawn would be able to possess anyone.
#23
Posté 07 août 2011 - 10:46
exskeeny
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Exactly, how many times do you read something in a book and spot what the main character doesn't?EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Smirking to the camera... And Hawke also lives in a world of magic, he can just aswell assume that he was somehow healed, or at the least that his condition temporarily improved. He could easily assume that the reason for Larius' behavior was because of the influence of Corypheus, and that with Corypheus' death, Larius' condition improved. There could be hundreds of different explanations.
What Hawke is NOT supposed to even remotely suspect, but we as the players are supposed to infer, is to suspect a Darkspawn would be able to possess anyone.
It doesn't make the protagonist stupid it just wises the the reader up to what's coming.
#24
Posté 07 août 2011 - 10:51
TEWR
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EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Smirking to the camera... And Hawke also lives in a world of magic, he can just aswell assume that he was somehow healed, or at the least that his condition temporarily improved. He could easily assume that the reason for Larius' behavior was because of the influence of Corypheus, and that with Corypheus' death, Larius' condition improved. There could be hundreds of different explanations.
What Hawke is NOT supposed to even remotely suspect, but we as the players are supposed to infer, is to suspect a Darkspawn would be able to possess anyone.
this'll be the first time I've ever said this.... but emp is absolutely right.
#25
Posté 07 août 2011 - 10:59
LobselVith8
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EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Smirking to the camera...
He seems pretty pleased with himself when he's directly facing Hawke, and his "explanation" makes no sense at all.
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And Hawke also lives in a world of magic, he can just aswell assume that he was somehow healed, or at the least that his condition temporarily improved.
Or this could be another instance where the plot prevents Hawke from doing anything (like when Cullen was going to take Bethany to the same Circle of Kirkwall that illegally made Karl tranquil, or the inability of anyone to find a mere hatch in the foundry where Starkhaven Circle mage Quentin was residing in). Hawke has been dealing with a man who could barely stand and string together a single sentence, and he now sees that man standing tall, standing coherently, and smiling?
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
He could easily assume that the reason for Larius' behavior was because of the influence of Corypheus, and that with Corypheus' death, Larius' condition improved. There could be hundreds of different explanations.
Or he could easily assume that something sinister happened like many players did, which only seems to make Hawke seem brainless in that scene when it seems so obvious to so many... but that would ruin the plot railroad of this DLC where Hawke's "two choices" lead to virtually the same conclusion, no different than the end of Dragon Age II with the choice between the templars and the mages that lead to the exact same conclusion.
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
What Hawke is NOT supposed to even remotely suspect, but we as the players are supposed to infer, is to suspect a Darkspawn would be able to possess anyone.
In a world where people become possessed, it wouldn't be remotely impossible for this to be something for Hawke to suspect, if the writers didn't handle Hawke as though he had irrevocable brain damage every time thinking was involved.
