115 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

What about picking up Corypheus' queer speech patterns, he be? Have an explanation for Hawke's blindness there, you conjure up?

[Morroian]

LobselVith8 wrote...

He seems pretty pleased with himself when he's directly facing Hawke, and his "explanation" makes no sense at all.

It makes no sense to someone who has knowledge of the taint. Hawke has none.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Or he could easily assume that something sinister happened like many players did, which only seems to make Hawke seem brainless in that scene when it seems so obvious to so many...

Its meant to be obvious to the player because it serves as a cliffhanger of sorts. Its not meant to be obvious to Hawke and if you put yourself in his position it wouldn't be. He might think something was a bit strange but thats not enought to act on.

LobselVith8 wrote...

but that would ruin the plot railroad of this DLC where Hawke's "two choices" lead to virtually the same conclusion, no different than the end of Dragon Age II with the choice between the templars and the mages that lead to the exact same conclusion.

Which is no different to DAO or even TW2 (from what I understand). The divergent path was at least fairly substantial given this is a 3-4 hour DLC. I don't know why you expect more given that this is only a small dlc.

[TEWR]

For one thing, Hawke was focused on killing Corypheus. IIRC, Corypheus "attacks" Hawke one last time before Hawke lands the "killing blow". For another, Hawke doesn't see the convulsions that we see, which is a big clue to us that something is off.


Now, this said, even if it wouldn't make much sense for Hawke, it would've been nice for him to attempt to attack Janeka/Larius 2.0. He doesn't have to succeed. Hell, Larius/Janeka 2.0 could've summoned a barrier that held out long enough to allow him to escape. Or, have it dependent on who got possessed. Larius knocks Hawke over the edge and Hawke is barely hanging on and his allies pull him up (or he pulls himself up if you solo'd it) and Janeka does the barrier thing.

Though, Corypheus (I really don't know whether to call him Larius/Janeka 2.0 or Corypheus) would still have his powers.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 07 août 2011 - 11:24 .

[LobselVith8]

Morroian wrote...

It makes no sense to someone who has knowledge of the taint. Hawke has none.

People get possessed in Thedas, and Hawke is informed that this isn't a typical darkspawn. It makes no sense that he simply accepts a lousy explanation at face value.

Morroian wrote...

Its meant to be obvious to the player because it serves as a cliffhanger of sorts. Its not meant to be obvious to Hawke and if you put yourself in his position it wouldn't be. He might think something was a bit strange but thats not enought to act on.

And it's so obvious that it makes Hawke look dull witted in comparison.

Morroian wrote...

Which is no different to DAO or even TW2 (from what I understand). The divergent path was at least fairly substantial given this is a 3-4 hour DLC. I don't know why you expect more given that this is only a small dlc.

The divergent path was simply another level that lead to the same conclusion: a surviving Grey Warden who is likely possessed. That's not really substantial, especially if you look at the Fallout DLCs that have divergent paths that aren't stories with exactly the same outcome with some superficial differences.

[TEWR]

Lob, just because the player knows doesn't mean Hawke can know (as I said above though, it would've been nice to have the option to assume something is wrong and still fail).

For another, as I said on page 1 Warden's Keep was the same way until the choice was given meaning by finding out that sparing Avernus and allowing him to continue his research was the right one.

[EmperorSahlertz]

People get possessed by DEMONS, not Darkspawn. Hawke is udner no circumstances suppsoed to expect Darkspawn to start possessing persons, no matter how powerful or unique said Darkspawn is.
We as players only suspect it because we have knowledge of similar things happening, both from the Archdemon, and Flemeth. If you had no knowledge of either, then you wouldn't suspect it either.

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lob, just because the player knows doesn't mean Hawke can know (as I said above though, it would've been nice to have the option to assume something is wrong and still fail).

Just because Hawke is given a bad explanation by a character who is clearly acting suspiciously doesn't mean that Hawke has to accept it: hook, line, and sinker.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

For another, as I said on page 1 Warden's Keep was the same way until the choice was given meaning by finding out that sparing Avernus and allowing him to continue his research was the right one.

Warden's Keep at least presented The Warden with the option to encourage or dissuade Avernus from his experiments because of the immediate threat of the darkspawn, while Hawke is presented as a naive person who will accept any bad explanation handed to him for the sake of either plot conveniance or sustained brain damage from all his fighting. The end of Legacy doesn't make me think Hawke is an intelligent character, but a dim-witted one.

[Dave of Canada]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Just because Hawke is given a bad explanation by a character who is clearly acting suspiciously doesn't mean that Hawke has to accept it: hook, line, and sinker.

Hawke has no idea it's a bad explanation, nor is Hawke capable of knowing as he/she has no knowledge in the field. Hell, I don't see how it's a bad explanation either. A lot of players believed it and they understand the taint a lot better than Hawke does.

What do you want Hawke to do, exactly? Say "be right back, going to study up on the taint to see if your reason is plausible"?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 07 août 2011 - 11:35 .

[D.Sharrah]

You know what amazes me is that Bioware has stated numerous times when "discussing choice in games" that it is more of an illusion of choice that they provide...after all they are trying to tell a narrative and it does have to complete a story arc...

The same thing happens in every "Choose Your Own Adventure" book - there are fixed outcomes, the difference lies in how you get there.

I find it hard to believe with the level of intelligent discussion that happens on this forum, that people still get stuck on this. For crying out loud, Bioware is giving us a wonderful opportunity to participate in their story! But it is THEIR story.

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Just because Hawke is given a bad explanation by a character who is clearly acting suspiciously doesn't mean that Hawke has to accept it: hook, line, and sinker.

What do you want Hawke to do, exactly? Say "be right back, going to study up on the taint to see if your reason is plausible"?

mind if I sig that? Because that's one pretty damn epic thing you've just written, as I lol'd heartily.

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Just because Hawke is given a bad explanation by a character who is clearly acting suspiciously doesn't mean that Hawke has to accept it: hook, line, and sinker.

Hawke has no idea it's a bad explanation, nor is Hawke capable of knowing as he/she has no knowledge in the field. Hell, I don't see how it's a bad explanation either. A lot of players believed it and they understand the taint a lot better than Hawke does.

Hawke has no idea about anything, apparently. Carver had a point when he said Hawke punched his way to being Champion, because he certainly didn't use his brain to attain the position.

Dave of Canada wrote...

What do you want Hawke to do, exactly? Say "be right back, going to study up on the taint to see if your reason is plausible"?

Why should Hawke do anything? Being lazy is what Hawke does best, unless someone needs him to kill something.

[Dave of Canada]

Oh, I see. You're just hiding this as a Legacy thread but you're just being anti-Hawke. Gotcha.

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Oh, I see. You're just hiding this as a Legacy thread but you're just being anti-Hawke. Gotcha.

I find that odd coming from the same person who bashes anyone who makes any criticism of Dragon Age 2. I wanted a DLC where Hawke would be allowed to be intelligent and proactive, in a narrative where he could make significant choices, which I asked for repeatedly for months since Dragon Age 2 came out. Instead, I got the same problematic issue of a reactive Hawke having no signfiicant choices and not doing anything about the peculiar behavior of a man who is acting completely different than he was the entire time he'd known him.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The development and story of Legacy was probably planned out well in advance of DA2's release..

[TEWR]

Hawke is being proactive. At first, he's investigating why the Carta is attacking him. When he finds out why they're attacking him (doing the bidding of Corypheus) he has all the answers he wanted.

"Why am I being attacked? Oh ok, because they're crazy dwarves serving some weirdo. Gotcha."

Then, he decides to find out who Corypheus is. I'd call that proactive, as at that point he makes a decision to find out more about this Corypheus.

Lob, DLC cannot address a choice right away. That's the point I'm trying to drive home.

Out of curiosity, would you not have a problem with it if Hawke tried to kill Larius/Janeka 2.0 and failed?


edit: changed the wording to sound better.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 08 août 2011 - 12:04 .

[Dave of Canada]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

mind if I sig that? Because that's one pretty damn epic thing you've just written, as I lol'd heartily.

Feel free.

LobselVith8 wrote...

I find that odd coming from the same person who bashes anyone who makes any criticism of Dragon Age 2.

I bash people now?

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The development and story of Legacy was probably planned out well in advance of DA2's release..

Which goes against what the Bioware employees have been saying for months about Legacy addressing the problems that people had with the sequel, especially when people asked why Legacy was taking so long to come out. I just finished the DLC, so maybe this is a little stream of consciousness formatted, but I'm bothered and disappointed by the narrative of the DLC having the same problem as the sequel, which clearly wasn't addressed in this storyline.

[KotorEffect3]

Looking at the context of the story being told in the DLC having some huge outcome altering choice didn't make alot of sense especialy since this DLC seems to have larger story ramifications in the future.

[Satyricon331]

Lobs, usually I either agree with your posts or feel your position is at least reasonable. This time however I think you're being a bit unreasonable for a 2-hour DLC (for reasons other people have already shared). I don't see how it's realistic to expect Bioware to implement all their reactions to our feedback in the first story-based DLC after DA2. I don't even feel it's particularly desirable - I'd rather save some things for DA3. I'm perfectly happy leaving world-altering choices (more precisely, the confirmation of whether or not our choices were world-altering, for after all the ones in Legacy might still have been) for the next full game; I can see why other people might want it sooner, but I can't see how they could think it ought to happen now, in this DLC, to the point where they find it offputting it didn't. Just my opinion.

[Sharn01]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Smirking to the camera... And Hawke also lives in a world of magic, he can just aswell assume that he was somehow healed, or at the least that his condition temporarily improved. He could easily assume that the reason for Larius' behavior was because of the influence of Corypheus, and that with Corypheus' death, Larius' condition improved. There could be hundreds of different explanations.
What Hawke is NOT supposed to even remotely suspect, but we as the players are supposed to infer, is to suspect a Darkspawn would be able to possess anyone.

this'll be the first time I've ever said this.... but emp is absolutely right.

Pretty much the same for me.

[Brockololly]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Then, he decides to find out who Corypheus is. I'd call that proactive, as at that point he makes a decision to find out more about this Corypheus.

But at that point Hawke is basically locked in the Warden prison and doesn't really have a choice but to go forward and deal with Cory.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Lob, DLC cannot address a choice right away. That's the point I'm trying to drive home.

I think thats the issue people are having with how BioWare handles choices in their games- is that they provide a choice like siding with Janeka or Larius expecting some divergent outcome. And either it provides a "kill/don't kill outcome" and thats all you ever get from that plot line or it ends up being an choice thats railroaded into a common consequence.

Obviously DLC can only address so much, so I think Legacy did a decent job all told.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Out of curiosity, would you not have a problem with it if Hawke tried to kill Larius/Janeka 2.0 and failed

Personally, the problem with the clearly possessed Larius/Janeka is at several levels.

First, its similar to how people got pissed in Origins when Morrigan walks out if you turn down the DR. Your PC is forced by the cinematics to stand there looking like a dork as smirking evil doer struts out. The game doesn't give you any way to react- it doesn't have to be killing but in the case of Legacy, it could be having Hawke put on his skeptical face and voice his unease at letting the possessed Warden go. Or voice that suspicion to your Warden sibling or write a letter to the Warden Commander back at home giving your account of the events and a heads up on Larius/Janeka's thinly veiled mustache twirling evil villain act.

And some might claim Hawke would have no clue as to what is going on with Larius/Janeka since he's not a Warden or whatever. But especially if the games are going to have a revolving door of new protagonists every game, this issue of the player knowing way more than the PC is likely going to get worse. Not everyone is going to totally RP their PC  and its frustrating when as a player you have a revelation or other strong feeling and yet your PC can't reflect that emotion/reaction in game.

So with something like Legacy, its plain as day the Warden is possessed and yet, Hawke can't do anything or even voice suspicion. Even if Hawke didn't no anything about the Wardens, its clear that they're acting different- like seriously different. And hell, you're dealing with a damn magister who says they're going to leave through somebody. I mean, come on, I was half expecting Larius/Janeka to let loose a Dr Evil MUAHAHAHA laugh at the end there.

[LobselVith8]

I'm not looking for world shattering choices, but I expected more than Hawke doing nothing about a man he finds acting suspicious and two choices that, once again, result in virtually the exact same conclusion.

[Morroian]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The development and story of Legacy was probably planned out well in advance of DA2's release..

Which goes against what the Bioware employees have been saying for months about Legacy addressing the problems that people had with the sequel,

Thats the gameplay not the story.

[LobselVith8]

Mike Laidlaw addressed that they heard the concerns about the narrative and the significance of choices in his "Thank You" thread, Morroian.

[Morroian]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Instead, I got the same problematic issue of a reactive Hawke having no signfiicant choices and not doing anything about the peculiar behavior of a man who is acting completely different than he was the entire time he'd known him.

A fact which is explained by the presence of Corypheus, his effect is even explicitly referred to in the codex.