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[KotorEffect3]

This DLC comes across as very similar to the bridging DLCs that ME 2 had in terms of overall story ramifications. Not calling Legacy a bridging DLC but it came close to feeling like one with Corypheous especialy since it is implied heavily that he isn't truly dead. And with these DLCs you have to account for continuity into the next game. I am guessing the events of what happened in this DLC will come up in some form in DA3.

[Morroian]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Mike Laidlaw addressed that they heard the concerns about the narrative and the significance of choices in his "Thank You" thread, Morroian.

Yes and for Legacy they talked about focussing on the gameplay issues to do with recycled areas and the combat both of which were addressed. Anyway like I said before the divergent path is enough for me in a dlc, in terms of time it took up what probably 25% of the time of the DLC, expand that to a whole game its almost an entirely new act. And there's also still the fact that in terms of providing different end game scenarios DAO was really no different

Modifié par Morroian, 08 août 2011 - 01:05 .

[TEWR]

Brockololly wrote...


But at that point Hawke is basically locked in the Warden prison and doesn't really have a choice but to go forward and deal with Cory.

Actually, no. It's when he's still outside of the Warden prison.

I think thats the issue people are having with how BioWare handles choices in their games- is that they provide a choice like siding with Janeka or Larius expecting some divergent outcome. And either it provides a "kill/don't kill outcome" and thats all you ever get from that plot line or it ends up being an choice thats railroaded into a common consequence.

Obviously DLC can only address so much, so I think Legacy did a decent job all told.

Well, we have no idea how Larius/Janeka 2.0 will affect the world of Thedas. One is a man who looks like ****, the other is a woman who doesn't look like ****.

We also have no clue what Corypheus' plans are. Maybe he just wants to see the world and catch up on what he's missed. IIRC, his influence was because he was in stasis. Maybe outside of his stasis, he won't be able to influence Wardens. Darkspawn definitely, but Wardens who knows.

It's possible this will connect to our choice of the Architect. Perhaps Corpheus will wage a new Darkspawn Civil War, and our choice on the Architect's fate will influence it. Perhaps by killing him, Corpheus gains more Darkspawn Disciples to his side because they're upset that the Warden killed their savior.

Personally, the problem with the clearly possessed Larius/Janeka is at several levels.

First, its similar to how people got pissed in Origins when Morrigan walks out if you turn down the DR. Your PC is forced by the cinematics to stand there looking like a dork as smirking evil doer struts out. The game doesn't give you any way to react- it doesn't have to be killing but in the case of Legacy, it could be having Hawke put on his skeptical face and voice his unease at letting the possessed Warden go. Or voice that suspicion to your Warden sibling or write a letter to the Warden Commander back at home giving your account of the events and a heads up on Larius/Janeka's thinly veiled mustache twirling evil villain act.

Which I agree with, to an extent. While it doesn't seem plausible for Hawke to immediately suspect something is off, I would've liked for Hawke to at least attempt to kill Corypheus again and fail. Or as you said, voice his concerns to Carver/Bethany/Anders or show him writing a letter to the Wardens of Amaranthine, whom he has helped on at least one occasion.

And some might claim Hawke would have no clue as to what is going on with Larius/Janeka since he's not a Warden or whatever. But especially if the games are going to have a revolving door of new protagonists every game, this issue of the player knowing way more than the PC is likely going to get worse. Not everyone is going to totally RP their PC  and its frustrating when as a player you have a revelation or other strong feeling and yet your PC can't reflect that emotion/reaction in game.

Agreed.

...not much else I can say to that.

So with something like Legacy, its plain as day the Warden is possessed and yet, Hawke can't do anything or even voice suspicion. Even if Hawke didn't no anything about the Wardens, its clear that they're acting different- like seriously different. And hell, you're dealing with a damn magister who says they're going to leave through somebody. I mean, come on, I was half expecting Larius/Janeka to let loose a Dr Evil MUAHAHAHA laugh at the end there.

I am glad that Corypheus isn't dead personally. I liked his VA, and I'm hoping they have him maybe morph who he possessed back into his appearance that we saw him as and give him his old voice back.

Or have him jump to a regular Darkspawn, morph the Darkspawn back to his appearance that we saw, give him his original VA,  and the Warden we sided with has some sort of significance. Like in the codex that says when Wardens were taken away from Corypheus, they remembered nothing about being near him. Maybe have the same thing happen to Larius/Janeka, only they don't remember anything from when they were possessed.

Actually, gimme the latter and I'll be happy.

[Morroian]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Which I agree with, to an extent. While it doesn't seem plausible for Hawke to immediately suspect something is off, I would've liked for Hawke to at least attempt to kill Corypheus again and fail.

But then you have the issue of Hawke being put into a position where he'd be forced to hunt Corypheus. 

[TEWR]

Morroian wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Which I agree with, to an extent. While it doesn't seem plausible for Hawke to immediately suspect something is off, I would've liked for Hawke to at least attempt to kill Corypheus again and fail.

But then you have the issue of Hawke being put into a position where he'd be forced to hunt Corypheus. 

Not quite. On page 1 or 2, I came up with a solution that would allow for Corypheus to escape and be long gone. Hawke wouldn't be able to find him that involved a barrier on the bridge. Though Varric should say to Cassandra that they were there for hours before the barrier went away.

Plus, if he's writing a letter to the Wardens, jurisdiction would fall to them and Hawke may be asked to assist. But it's not guaranteed.

[Merilsell]

LobselVith8 wrote...
When the person in question was a dying Grey Warden who was so corrupted by the taint that he was crouching and barely coherent, and is now speaking coherently, standing tall, and smirking?

I actually missed the mustache twirling and the evil MUAHAHA  in the camera to wrap it in even more subtlety. 

[D.Sharrah]

I am surprised that there are so many that are convinced that Cory did not die, but simply "jumped bodies". To be honest with you I saw/felt nothing wrong with the excahnge with Larius/Janeka after the fight - I didn't even think to question it until seeing some of the theories on this forum.

And even then, when playing through the DLC again to focus on that exchange...nothing tingled my spidey senses. I just don't see it/feel it. But perception is in the eye of the beholder...and I think that we see what we want to see...

[Anyroad2]

D.Sharrah wrote...

I am surprised that there are so many that are convinced that Cory did not die, but simply "jumped bodies". To be honest with you I saw/felt nothing wrong with the excahnge with Larius/Janeka after the fight - I didn't even think to question it until seeing some of the theories on this forum.

And even then, when playing through the DLC again to focus on that exchange...nothing tingled my spidey senses. I just don't see it/feel it. But perception is in the eye of the beholder...and I think that we see what we want to see...

True. I didnt see anything "off" about the ending there either.
However... I also didnt see anything wrong in DAO before the Battle of Ostagar when the camera shoots to Loghains face as he says something along the lines of "Yes Cailan, Glorious indeed." My buddy noticed that was something from Villiany 101.

Modifié par Anyroad2, 08 août 2011 - 03:04 .

[Anyroad2]

Blah. Damn double post. ><

Modifié par Anyroad2, 08 août 2011 - 03:04 .

[The Baconer]

Anyroad2 wrote...
However... I also didnt see anything wrong in DAO before the Battle of Ostagar when the camera shoots to Loghains face as he says something along the lines of "Yes Cailan, Glorious indeed." My buddy noticed that was something from Villiany 101.

That's... Pretty bad.

[Macropodmum]

Anyroad2 wrote...

True. I didnt see anything "off" about the ending there either.
However... I also didnt see anything wrong in DAO before the Battle of Ostagar when the camera shoots to Loghains face as he says something along the lines of "Yes Cailan, Glorious indeed." My buddy noticed that was something from Villiany 101.

It is even more obvious if you question Loghain's guard outside his tent, then request an audience with him and question him yourself.  Then toss in talking to the tower guard where Loghain's men were supposedly securing the lower tunnels...

[TEWR]

Even some of the soldiers thought Loghain and his men were up to something, as I just now discovered.

[Sepewrath]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I see people complaining about this all the time, but it really depends on how you define a choice that "matters". What makes it matter? Does it need an epilogue placard (e.g. end of DAO) for it to matter? Do people in the game need to acknowledge that you made a choice (e.g. the criers in Orzammar after choosing a king) for it to matter? Do you need to not be able to do something later because of a choice you made (e.g. gave Feynriel to Torpor) for it to matter?

There was a choice that I thought mattered in Legacy - Hawke had to choose between Larius and Janeka. When I chose Janeka, I went through a different story than I did when I chose Larius, with different puzzles and different outcomes. I ended up in the same place eventually, but that doesn't change the fact that I took a different path to get there. I don't see this as any different than being forced to face Sarevok at the end of BG1, or the Archdemon at the end of DAO. No matter what I do, I will end up there eventually. Does that mean all of the choices up to that point don't matter?

Agreed, people are always going on about agency like the player has an actual control, but the reality is choices in games don't matter. At most, you ride a meter for good or bad ending and you have a different epilogue, but choices never actually reflect in the game. They are often an illusion hidden behind scale, you get to choose who is the ruler of Ferelden, it doesn't matter who you chose; could have been Alistair, Anora, hell your Mabari and it wouldn't have made the least bit of difference, but because of the scale of the choice, people act as if they made a choice that mattered.

Go through every choice and Origins and did it lead you to anywhere but on top of a roof with a Dragon trying to eat you? At least in DA2 since they know these choices your going to make don't mean a damn thing. they write it into the story to give it some more depth. Instead of giving you a choice, that is ultimately irrelevant and then glossing over the whole thing, in hopes that you didn't notice.

Simply put if they want to create a compelling story, they need control over it, they cant have you doing whatever you feel like and expect the story to hold up. That's why Bethesda's games aren't exactly known for their award winning stories, they sacrifice story for freedom. That's why I'm expecting "more player agency" in DA3 to just be more giant decisions that are completely over the players head, but they get to make anyway for the ego stroke, so it counts as agency.

[Macropodmum]

Yeah, pretty obvious after that and finding out it was Loghain's battle strategy, his idea of lighting the tower beacon for his flanking charge to come, that he wanted his men to light the beacon (which wouldn't have happened due to the easy access for darkspawn) that he was plotting evil...

[Brockololly]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I am glad that Corypheus isn't dead personally. I liked his VA, and I'm hoping they have him maybe morph who he possessed back into his appearance that we saw him as and give him his old voice back.

If he shows up again, I'd imagine it'll be in darkspawn form just for simplicity. As for his voice actor, it was an interesting German sounding accent or something but with the absolutely cringe worthy combat shouts ("Feel the chill! Is there a chill in the air?) and the accent, I was getting flashbacks to Arnold Schwarzenegger as Mr.Freeze

I was waiting for him to go "Lets kick some ice!"

Modifié par Brockololly, 08 août 2011 - 03:43 .

[Anyroad2]

The Baconer wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...
However... I also didnt see anything wrong in DAO before the Battle of Ostagar when the camera shoots to Loghains face as he says something along the lines of "Yes Cailan, Glorious indeed." My buddy noticed that was something from Villiany 101.

That's... Pretty bad.

Oh I know. It IS really BAD. I can be very dense sometimes. XD

It was my first playthrough, and I didnt know anything about the game at all aside what I'd seen so far. I was playing it by ear, and taking things the way they were pressented. As far as I knew, Loghain was the biggest hero in Ferelden, and somone who Cailan trusted the most. I had no reason to expect him of anything yet.


Point was though, that even though I didnt see it either, that really doesnt mean much. I have a history of not getting things like this.

[Rifneno]

Anyroad2 wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...
However... I also didnt see anything wrong in DAO before the Battle of Ostagar when the camera shoots to Loghains face as he says something along the lines of "Yes Cailan, Glorious indeed." My buddy noticed that was something from Villiany 101.

That's... Pretty bad.

Oh I know. It IS really BAD. I can be very dense sometimes. XD

It was my first playthrough, and I didnt know anything about the game at all aside what I'd seen so far. I was playing it by ear, and taking things the way they were pressented. As far as I knew, Loghain was the biggest hero in Ferelden, and somone who Cailan trusted the most. I had no reason to expect him of anything yet.


Point was though, that even though I didnt see it either, that really doesnt mean much. I have a history of not getting things like this.

If it makes you feel any better, my first time through DA2, I did Justice (Anders' Act III quest) ASAP because I honestly believed it'd free him of Justice and I wanted the banter for the rest of the game to be from a pure Anders.  ....  Didn't work out too well for me.

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Having recently purchased and finished Legacy, I have to say I'm disappointed that, once again, choice doesn't seem to matter. Regardless of who Hawke sides with, it's the same conclusion - the darkspawn seems to have possessed the surviving Grey Warden, and Hawke isn't capable of realizing this as a possibility, probably for the same reason he didn't do anything about Meredith becoming a dictator for three years in the city-state he was living in. Is there a reason that Mike Laidlaw mentioned that there was an issue about the significance of choice in Dragon Age 2, that they were going to rectify those issues, and then we were providing with a DLC where choice, once again, didn't matter?

I was hoping whoever we sided with would once possessed by corypheus go on to use their immense knowledge of Magic and the maleficarum arts overthrow the Archon of the Tevinter Imperium and become the new archon. Then Tevinters part in the global mage/templar was is invading the Anderfels and going to war with the wardens due to the large threat they pose to Corypheus's existance + revenge for imprisoning him for so long.. I wrote about it in my topic "Corypheus future events" if you want to check it out, pretty brief but yeah just an idea I had. would be cool. So hopefully they can still make our choice count by whoever we side with is who becomes the new magister.. Even though they are both really corypheus but still at least it adds a some weight to the choice

[JedTed]

I sided with Janeka and it wasn't immediatly obvious to me that she was possessed.  At the time i was still pretty high on the fact that i defeated an old Tevinter Magister but once i read the DA wiki it became clear to me.

In the case of Larius i can see where that might have given Hawke cause for suspicion but he still has no knowlage of how the Archdemon possess tainted hosts.  If Bethany/Carver is a Warden then Corypheus could've possessed either of them and Hawke might never have known.

Modifié par JedTed, 08 août 2011 - 06:52 .

[Sabariel]

I wanted to headbutt Hawke in the face when she just let Larius walk away. He's acting strangely and he's adopted the magical darkspawn's speech patterns... HE MUST BE OKAY!

Hawke should have tried to stop Larius, there should have been a scuffle, and then Larius should have escaped. That, at least, would have made Hawke look like less of a dimwit.

[Rifneno]

Hawke might not have known about the archdemon soul switch thing, but what about the other warden party members? Anders and a warden Carver/Bethany? The reason our wardens and Alistair didn't know in DAO was mostly to built to a big shocker by Riodan, but he just assumed they knew. He acts like it's very common knowledge among the wardens. Hell, Anders counts for two: himself, and before Justice merged with him he was in the body of Kristoff, a seasoned warden, and was frequently going through his memories.

Besides, Hawke saw Flemeth emerge from a pendant. She didn't just switch bodies, she magically cloned herself. Way more impressive. And Hawke doesn't know Flemeth is quite possibly the most powerful being in the DA universe, we only know that because of seeing the world through other characters. Hawke certainly shouldn't rule out Corypheus doing anything similar to what Flemeth could.

[LobselVith8]

That's a good point, Rifneno. The reason Alistair and The Warden didn't know is that they were relatively new recruits. Also, isn't Hawke privy to the knowledge that possession can happen even if demons aren't involved because of what he's seen with the lyrium idol?

[Fallstar]

Of course Hawke's choices don't matter - the whole point of the dlc is to find Corypheus. Sometimes you just have to accept that a certain plotline is going to be so important to the franchise as a whole that reduced player agency is inevitable.

[Macropodmum]

LobselVith8 wrote...

That's a good point, Rifneno. The reason Alistair and The Warden didn't know is that they were relatively new recruits. Also, isn't Hawke privy to the knowledge that possession can happen even if demons aren't involved because of what he's seen with the lyrium idol?

The idol didn't really possess anyone in the true sense, it just drove them insane...

[LobselVith8]

I didn't see it that way, Macropodmum. Bartrand seemed possessed to me when he kept talking to a voice that no one else could hear, and saying it was compelling him to find the lyrium idol again.