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[Rifneno]

Vit246 wrote...

Flemeth is an ancient mage who long ago summoned a powerful spirit and "merged" with it while retaining her mind and control. She possesses the immortality and power of the spirit she summoned. Flemeth as she is now, is a unique powerful being who knows secret things that only spirits know and could change the world.

The problem with that theory is, you just described Anders too and he's a joke compared to Flemeth.

[TEWR]

Funny_chan wrote...

I'll quote here a post I wrote about this 2 days ago in the topic Flemeth is Morrigan and Morrigan is Flemeth on the Dragon Age Origins forums:

I never thought that the cultists were anything more than insane Reavers, since drinking dragon's blood makes one go insane. But your idea actually makes some sense.

Oh, and it should be mentioned that when you drink the dragon's blood, you hear the same whispering the Darkspawn hear and that you hear in the Joining. You also hear that same whispering in the final battle with Meredith.

So, what if Flemeth is connected to the Darkspawn emerging, the Primeval Thaig, the Taint of the Black City, and dragons? And other things?

Vit246 wrote...

Flemeth is an ancient mage who long ago summoned a powerful spirit and "merged" with it while retaining her mind and control. She possesses the immortality and power of the spirit she summoned. Flemeth as she is now, is a unique powerful being who knows secret things that only spirits know and could change the world.

You see, there's some things wrong with this. This would make her an Abomination much like Uldred, Wynne, or Anders; and Morrigan says Flemeth is no abomination.

Second, we don't know if that story is true. It could just be a story.

[Zanallen]

Flemeth is a super abomination and has control over a legion of demons.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Does she have to be either? Can she not "simply" be Flemeth?

[Vit246]

Or Flemeth could be an ordinary mortal mage with a very good immortality insurance.

Modifié par Vit246, 07 août 2011 - 10:13 .

[Dhiro]

Filament wrote...

Abominations obviously can vary in power just as much as the spirits and people of which they're composed. Morrigan does explicitly say she's not an abomination though. Though that conversation with Wynne about whether an abomination who retains their humanity is still an abomination might muddy the water a little.

Though, in this case, I got the impression that Wynne just wanted a second opinion. She was afraid that, by sharing her body with a spirit, she was a abomination herself and wanted something to reassure her that she wasn't one. I think she would have accepted any argument that made sense.

That said, I don't think Flemeth is just a abomination.

[nitefyre410]

Rifneno wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

Flemeth is an ancient mage who long ago summoned a powerful spirit and "merged" with it while retaining her mind and control. She possesses the immortality and power of the spirit she summoned. Flemeth as she is now, is a unique powerful being who knows secret things that only spirits know and could change the world.

The problem with that theory is, you just described Anders too and he's a joke compared to Flemeth.

I don't  know give  Anders a few hundred years or so  and we'll see his merger with just is rather  recent.  


as for who Flemeth is I love the Irony of her  being  Andraste - that just to funny for words.

Modifié par nitefyre410, 07 août 2011 - 10:57 .

[Rifneno]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

Flemeth is an ancient mage who long ago summoned a powerful spirit and "merged" with it while retaining her mind and control. She possesses the immortality and power of the spirit she summoned. Flemeth as she is now, is a unique powerful being who knows secret things that only spirits know and could change the world.

The problem with that theory is, you just described Anders too and he's a joke compared to Flemeth.

I don't  know give  Anders a few hundred years or so  and we'll see his merger with just is rather  recent.  


as for who Flemeth is I love the Irony of her  being  Andraste - that just to funny for words.

Even more ironic:  Going by the "Andraste is the Dumat OGB" theory, if she was once a mighty dragon that duped fools into worshipping her... who's to say she couldn't wind up back at that form?  I.e. the murdertown of Haven was right and that stupid dragon really was Andraste.

[Blacklash93]

Vit246 wrote...

Or Flemeth could be an ordinary mortal mage with a very good immortality insurance.

Which Morrigan has explicitly said she is not.

She is probably something connected to the Old Gods. I don't think the dragon thing is just to show off, personally. And, to be clear, I don't think she's one of the seven, but rather something related to them.
 
Perhaps she's one of their first children?

[nitefyre410]

Rifneno wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

Flemeth is an ancient mage who long ago summoned a powerful spirit and "merged" with it while retaining her mind and control. She possesses the immortality and power of the spirit she summoned. Flemeth as she is now, is a unique powerful being who knows secret things that only spirits know and could change the world.

The problem with that theory is, you just described Anders too and he's a joke compared to Flemeth.

I don't  know give  Anders a few hundred years or so  and we'll see his merger with just is rather  recent.  


as for who Flemeth is I love the Irony of her  being  Andraste - that just to funny for words.

Even more ironic:  Going by the "Andraste is the Dumat OGB" theory, if she was once a mighty dragon that duped fools into worshipping her... who's to say she couldn't wind up back at that form?  I.e. the murdertown of Haven was right and that stupid dragon really was Andraste.

 

LOL -   oh now that would great    "The 'Crazy'  Cult was actually right" Who would thought.

[OmegaXI]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

Flemeth is an ancient mage who long ago summoned a powerful spirit and "merged" with it while retaining her mind and control. She possesses the immortality and power of the spirit she summoned. Flemeth as she is now, is a unique powerful being who knows secret things that only spirits know and could change the world.

The problem with that theory is, you just described Anders too and he's a joke compared to Flemeth.

I don't  know give  Anders a few hundred years or so  and we'll see his merger with just is rather  recent.  


as for who Flemeth is I love the Irony of her  being  Andraste - that just to funny for words.

Even more ironic:  Going by the "Andraste is the Dumat OGB" theory, if she was once a mighty dragon that duped fools into worshipping her... who's to say she couldn't wind up back at that form?  I.e. the murdertown of Haven was right and that stupid dragon really was Andraste.

 

LOL -   oh now that would great    "The 'Crazy'  Cult was actually right" Who would thought.

That would be epic LOL, it would make you think twice about killing a bunch of crazy cultist in future bioware games

[Sepewrath]

I certainly don't think she is an "OGB" or the Maker lol. I think she is just a really powerful mage, who has lived for a really long time and learned a lot of things. Oh an old bag who talks too much.

[TEWR]

That would be epic LOL, it would make you think twice about killing a bunch of crazy cultist in future bioware games

Psh I'd still kill them. They murdered a bunch of Redcliffe knights and drank dragon's blood, which causes a person to go insane. And insanity often does lead to murder.

Plus, I'm not going to wait until the Maker, if he exists, takes action against them like the Guardian believes.

[Who is that Masked Man]

I always thought the story of Flemeth, Conobar, and Osen the Bard was mostly true. Otherwise, why would Flemeth bother telling Morrigan a "corrected" version of the story?

There's no evidence that Flemeth was in the habit of deflecting Morrigan's questions by making up random garbage. When she didn't want Morrigan to know something, she just wouldn't tell her, as when (according to Morrigan) she laughed off a question about whether she was Morrigan's biological mother.

So, basically, I think it all happened pretty much as Flemeth told Morrigan. Osen, Connabar, all of it. Even getting possessed by a demon. However, I think that the identity of the "demon" that Flemeth bonded with is the real mystery.

"Demon"... real demon? Apparently not, unless it's some kind of special, rare demon that Morrigan, Anders, and Fenris aren't familiar with.

"Demon"... the Maker? I really don't think so. IF Flemeth is Andraste (and I don't believe she was), I'd say it was more like a role she was playing to suit her own purposes rather than the result of an actual religious epiphany.

"Demon"... Fen'Haral? Unlikely, I think. It would seem a little much to suppose that the dragon motif is just a bizarre ruse.

Old God? Possibly. Of the possibilities given so far this explanation makes the most sense to me.

What I want to know is what Merrill thinks Flemeth is. When asked by Flemeth, she said she knew "only a little" about who or what Flemeth was beyond her Asha'bellanar title. Unfortunately there was no option for Hawke to ask about the little bit that Merrill does know.

[Anyroad2]

The whole Andraste = Flemeth thing... its all very interesting, and after reading the connections between the two, I definitely could see it as being fact.

Andraste being a mage would also account for the "divine" interventions during the Exalted March against Tevinter. Remember that Cathaire told the Warden... "The Maker kindled the sun's flame, scorching the land. Their crops failed, and their armies could not march. Then He opened the heavens and bade the waters flow, and washed away their filth.". Something that I bet a powerful mage could pull off. Something that people could belivive a non-mage Andraste could do, if it was The Maker working through her.

I would like to bring up the point about Andrastes Ashes though. DAO makes it pretty clear that they are miraculous. They cure Arl Eamon from what many thought was an uncurable state. If Flemeth is in fact Andraste, then what are the ashes? Why do they have healing properties?

Modifié par Anyroad2, 08 août 2011 - 03:40 .

[nitefyre410]

OmegaXI wrote...

That would be epic LOL, it would make you think twice about killing a bunch of crazy cultist in future bioware games

Not really - I  was on buisness and I needed the ashes they were in the way and wanted to destroy them. I offered them a chance to move - they then did the whole  "Join us or Die" to which my response was to make the stabbing- repeatedly. 

[Who is that Masked Man]

I would like to bring up the point about Andrastes Ashes though. DAO makes it pretty clear that they are miraculous. They cure Arl Eamon from what many thought was an uncurable state. If Flemeth is in fact Andraste, then what are the ashes? Why do they have healing properties?

The Sacred Ashes quest was extremely ambiguous in terms of game lore. Multiple, non-Chantry-approved explanations were offered by the various companions.

Oghren points out that the ashes are sitting on what is basically a giant lyrium mountain. He speculates that it's the lyrium responsible for the Guardian's immortality and whatnot, not the Maker.

Leliana, among other characters, floats the idea that Andraste's Ashes have miraculous powers simply due to the strength of people's belief in them.

And Morrigan of course dismisses the things she sees in the temple as "Powerful magic, indeed."

Also, if I was inclined to believe the Flemeth-is-Andraste theory (and I'm not, I'm just playing devil's advocate here), what better way to dispose of her erstwhile alter ego than to make sure she died publicly in front of many witnesses? What better way to make the world believe that Andraste had an existence independent of the notorious Flemeth than to begin a legend about magical ashes?

That ash could be from Flemeth's own chimney. The magic that saved Arl Eamon could have been Flemeth's, too.

Modifié par Who is that Masked Man, 08 août 2011 - 03:53 .

[Anyroad2]

Who is that Masked Man wrote...

I would like to bring up the point about Andrastes Ashes though. DAO makes it pretty clear that they are miraculous. They cure Arl Eamon from what many thought was an uncurable state. If Flemeth is in fact Andraste, then what are the ashes? Why do they have healing properties?

The Sacred Ashes quest was extremely ambiguous in terms of game lore. Multiple, non-Chantry-approved explanations were offered by the various companions.

Oghren points out that the ashes are sitting on what is basically a giant lyrium mountain. He speculates that it's the lyrium responsible for the Guardian's immortality and whatnot, not the Maker.

Leliana, among other characters, floats the idea that Andraste's Ashes have miraculous powers simply due to the strength of people's belief in them.

And Morrigan of course dismisses the things she sees in the temple as "Powerful magic, indeed."

Also, if I was inclined to believe the Flemeth-is-Andraste theory (and I'm not, I'm just playing devil's advocate here), what better way to dispose of her erstwhile alter ego than to make sure she died publicly in front of many witnesses? What better way to make the world believe that Andraste had an existence independent of the notorious Flemeth than to begin a legend about magical ashes?

That ash could be from Flemeth's own chimney. The magic that saved Arl Eamon could have been Flemeth's, too.

Oh wow. Those are some really good points you made.
And that all does play into Flemeth knowing the future, thus being able to plan far far ahead. Perhapes she knew that Eamon would be forced into the state he is in by Jowan, and gave "Andrastes Ashes" the properties of the only cure for it knowing that the Warden would seek them out, find them and save him. That all depends on what your playthrough was like though I suppose. >_>

[WhiteKnyght]

Flemeth is something else. Thats what she is.

[Macropodmum]

I would have to wonder that if Flemeth was an OGB and/or Andraste, that there would have had to be someone powerful before Flemeth (to know about and do the ritual) or that Flemeth existed beforehand and did her body hopping thing into the OGB/Andraste, which would the raise the question who was she before this occurred?

Anyroad2 wrote...

I would like to bring up the point about Andrastes Ashes though. DAO makes it pretty clear that they are miraculous. They cure Arl Eamon from what many thought was an uncurable state. If Flemeth is in fact Andraste, then what are the ashes? Why do they have healing properties?

Andraste's body could still have burnt to ashes, if it was Flemeth I imagine she located another body..

Who is that Masked Man wrote...

Leliana, among other characters, floats the idea that Andraste's Ashes have miraculous powers simply due to the strength of people's belief in them.

The one major problem with Leliana's idea is that Arl Eamon was unconcious when the ashes were used to cure him, therefore it is a bit difficult to accept he was cured by his faith in the ashes....

Modifié par Macropodmum, 08 août 2011 - 04:13 .

[Who is that Masked Man]

The one major problem with Leliana's idea is that Arl Eamon was unconcious when the ashes were used to cure him, therefore it is a bit difficult to accept he was cured by his faith in the ashes....

Not sure if it was intended that way, but I took it as more D&D type "it actually sucks up power from its believers" kind of faith, rather than the placebo-effect kind of faith.

Like how the image of Shianni, Daddy Cousland, or whoever was created from the Warden's mind by the Gauntlet.

[Macropodmum]

Who is that Masked Man wrote...

The one major problem with Leliana's idea is that Arl Eamon was unconcious when the ashes were used to cure him, therefore it is a bit difficult to accept he was cured by his faith in the ashes....

Not sure if it was intended that way, but I took it as more D&D type "it actually sucks up power from its believers" kind of faith, rather than the placebo-effect kind of faith.

Like how the image of Shianni, Daddy Cousland, or whoever was created from the Warden's mind by the Gauntlet.

If they actually sucked power from anything then I guess Morrigan would be right by assuming it was powerful magic, it wasn't faith...

[sephiroth199127]

I think she's a Tevinter magister, just a hunch.

Modifié par sephiroth199127, 08 août 2011 - 12:48 .

[whykikyouwhy]

@sephiroth199127 - There may be a few inconsistencies with her being a magister. Tevinter vanquished the elven emoire, which would imply a certain hatred/disregard/negative attitude towards the elves. While this may not be something shared by all of Tevinter, it would seem that the magisters would possess this perspective. Flemeth seems respectfuul, somewhat, of Merrill on Sundermount. At least respectful of "the people" or acknowledging that the people should not bow so quickly.

So too, Flemeth does not seem concerned with the old gods or acquisition of power. She has power, she has foresight in some capacity. She seems greater than what the magisters could have hoped to attain. Plus, she is, to our knowledge, corruption free. If she were one of the five magisters who entered the golden-black city, she *should* be tainted.

Of course, appearances are deceiving.