147 réponses à ce sujet

[Kel_Sjet]

This is a VERY good article that I think everyone should read:

http://www.fmvmagazine.com/?p=371



Quick note to the moderators (especially javierabegazo).
I know there is somewhat of a stigma attached to posting stuff on these forums that aren't just outright praising Bioware and ME3, but please read this article fully before deciding to delete this thread.

It is actually VERY balanced and brings up a LOT of very good points imho. So please don't just delete this thread/ban my account.


I think we need a more balanced discussion on these forums. I think it will be better for the community as a whole, much better than only discussing articles/ideas that outright praise Bioware and take the "BW can do no wrong" approach, while deleting/banning anything else that thinks even slightly contrary.

Thanks

[LGTX]

"A great many BioWare fans – myself included – fell in love with games like Mass Effect precisely because they are not Gears of War."

I stopped reading there. I fell in love with Mass Effect because it was Mass Effect, not because it was an "RPG" or "something new" or NOT something else, etc.

Sorry for not contributing fully to the discussion, just wanted to voice this.

[TheKillerAngel]

Good action and story are not mutually exclusive properties.

[xXRevan0515Xx]

I believe the extra amount of time/resources they are putting into this game, and the depth they are claiming to have put into the ME3 squad relationships, alleviated my concerns.

[littlezack]

Kel_Sjet wrote...



I think we need a more balanced discussion on these forums. I think it will be better for the community as a whole, much better than only discussing articles/ideas that outright praise Bioware and take the "BW can do no wrong" approach, while deleting/banning anything else that thinks even slightly contrary.

i don't think we're talking about the same forum. Typically the only sort of topics that get deleted around here are either redundant or ones that devolve into overly personal flame wars. It certainly isn't all praise topics, that's for sure.

Modifié par littlezack, 07 août 2011 - 09:53 .

[Kel_Sjet]

LGTX wrote...

"A great many BioWare fans – myself included – fell in love with games like Mass Effect precisely because they are not Gears of War."

I stopped reading there. I fell in love with Mass Effect because it was Mass Effect, not because it was an "RPG" or "something new" or NOT something else, etc.

To be honest, I think he is making the exact same point you are, that being, that ME was/is unique.

He is lamenting what he sees as the possible 'loss' of this uniqueness. He attributes this with the "because it is not GoW" phrase.

In short, in reality he is saying exactly what you are. The thrust of that particular point of his is not really about GoW, but about ME's uniqueness (which is, from what I understand, also what you like about the game).

Please read the rest, it is very worth it, imho.

[shepskisaac]

Not a very good article. Why? Because it's biased. Why? Because it brings all the quotes from BioWare devs saying how ME3 will be like Gears of War/action-adventure etc. but deliberately ignores all their quotes when they talk about returning RPG elements absent from ME2 and how they've heard the criticism over that and will do the best to fix it. This is simply pur bias, no matter how you try to spin it. It also ingnores actual hardcore proofs of returning customization etc. as presented in gameplay demos at Comic-Con for example. Furthermore, through the wording and selective quoting, the article actually suggests plot/choices/characters are somehow becoming less important which is pure BS. And most importantly, the article fails to ackowledge the fact that BioWare talks about GOW/action-adventure inspiration regarding action/combat elements & scenes in ME3, not RPG mechanics and elements.

Seriously, I'm all for criticisism. But sometimes I feel like hardcore RPG fans will never be happy unless BioWare's marketing departement talks solely about skill trees, experience points and mods and ignores absolutely everything else.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 07 août 2011 - 09:56 .

[LGTX]

I did read it, actually. One paragraph in particular almost made me laugh out loud - no offense to anyone, seriously. Here it is:

"millions of people have come to adore BioWare’s creations for their combination of awe-inspiring scale, immersive plot, moral choice systems and – crucially – their expert implementation of RPG mechanics. BioWare fans enjoy the experience of leveling up abilities, upgrading weapons and kit, and earning and spending experience points – which are always presented in a way that feels fresh, entertaining and decidedly un-geeky. Fans also relish the ability to shape their characters’ personality, skill-sets and equipment, tailoring their protagonist so specifically that he or she really does feel pure and simply their own."

This was funny for me, I'm sorry, but it was. The whole point Mass Effect made, for me, was that tailoring a character could be done without endless micro-management now. That you could literally shape your personality and choices rather than play dressup and crunch stats over grenade upgrades. That was the whole point the series was making for me since the start, and it's now at the apotheosis of this evolution; swings in the balance of RPG/shooting/character interaction would always BE an integral part of this evolution. Of a genre that's not RPG or a GoW clone or something idolizing the hardcore mechanics of the past century. A genre that's just Mass Effect.

I still think the article is rant in disguise, but opinions are opinions. I respect them.

[Shepard the Leper]

The article uses the logic that a game, which tries to be part-shooter, finally plays like one in combat equals the removal of leveling up, skills, squadmates, dialogue, story, decision making, and so on.

Utter nonsense.

[Kel_Sjet]

IsaacShep wrote...

Not a very good article. Why? Because it's biased. Why? Because it brings all the quotes from BioWare devs saying how ME3 will be like Gears of War/action-adventure etc.

Actually, its an opinion piece, not a 'report on the game'. Furthermore, it actually talks about a much bigger picture that goes beyond just ME3. If you read the whole article, you would see that.



On a side point, this is kind of what I was afraid of (yet another artifact of building a community where anything that isn't "BW can do no wrong" is not tolerated).
Sure, unlike almost every other linked article on these forums, this guy isn't outright joygasming about ME3, but that alone isn't a solid enough point to automatically claim that he is wrong.

Meh, now I am second guessing myself for ever posting the link. /sigh

[Bad King]

I predict that this article will receive a lot of bashing from the BSN community.

[Sith Reaper]

TheKillerAngel wrote...

Good action and story are not mutually exclusive properties.

Yep. And we know already that there improvements to both in Mass Effect 3.

[littlezack]

Kel_Sjet wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Not a very good article. Why? Because it's biased. Why? Because it brings all the quotes from BioWare devs saying how ME3 will be like Gears of War/action-adventure etc.

On a side point, this is kind of what I was afraid of (yet another artifact of building a community where anything that isn't "BW can do no wrong" is not tolerated).
Sure, unlike almost every other linked article on these forums, this guy isn't outright joygasming about ME3, but that alone isn't a solid enough point to automatically claim that he is wrong.

Dude. There is PLENTY of criticism on this forum. You're either not looking very hard or outright ignoring it.

[Erani]

[ME3]" shaping up to be more and more like a conventional Gears of War clone"...

I'm sorry but couldn't keep reading past that.

Edit: *kindly points OP towards the DA forums* Criticism shall be found there serah.

Modifié par Erani, 07 août 2011 - 10:03 .

[bucyrus5000]

Very good read; the writer doesn't delve into the ME2 story analysis much, but that is just one aspect of a good RPG. I share Mark's fear of ME3 abandoning it's deep RPG roots, thus ME's core fans.The epic story that is only possible to tell in an RPG format is what we are interested in seeing. My favorite analysis can be found here, it centers around the house divided dilemma, but does show insight into the Epic story of ME2.

xXRevan0515Xx wrote...

I believe the extra amount of time/resources they are putting into this game, and the depth they are claiming to have put into the ME3 squad relationships, alleviated my concerns.

that does help alleviate my fears.

Modifié par bucyrus5000, 07 août 2011 - 10:06 .

[Kel_Sjet]

Shepard the Leper wrote...

The article uses the logic that a game, which tries to be part-shooter, finally plays like one in combat equals the removal of leveling up, skills, squadmates, dialogue, story, decision making, and so on.

Utter nonsense.

I stress, again, he isn't saying ME3 will suck. I would have hoped that at least that much is clear.

He is just putting forward a word of caution, for example:

If Mass Effect 3 is the glorious, awe-inspiring action-RPG I hope it will be, then BioWare will have shrugged off all these concerns and done their core base proud. If, however, it turns out to be nothing more than a Gears of War clone, then I fear no amount of slick action and technical excellence will be enough to mask the disappointment of BioWare fans, who are – lest we forget – the very people who have helped the company become such a key player in the gaming industry in the first place.

Emphasis mine.

They guy openly states that he isn't saying outright that the game will suck. If only people on these forums don't immediately have that reaction to anything that isn't super positive.

There is a middle ground, in almost all things. Just because he isn't outright praising everything about the game doesn't mean he thinks it will suck. He isn't even really talking about ME3 in particular, but more about why he is cautious about where BW is heading in general.



Please do not equate "he didn't say ME3 will be awesome!" as being the same thing as "he said ME3 will suck".

[InfoGuy101]

It's a interesting a "opinion" the writer has but I don't agree with it. Mass Effect 3 is not going lose it's uniqueness because it plays better than previous titles in the series lol.

[shepskisaac]

Kel_Sjet wrote...

Actually, its an opinion piece, not a 'report on the game'. Furthermore, it actually talks about a much bigger picture that goes beyond just ME3. If you read the whole article, you would see that.

I did. The opinion was spinned to bring all the "BioWare abandoning RPG" arguments together, while ignoring their quotes and actual proofs that show they're taking a different approach in ME3 compared to ME2/DA2 and that they've heard the criticism.

Kel_Sjet wrote...
On a side point, this is kind of what I was afraid of (yet another artifact of building a community where anything that isn't "BW can do no wrong" is not tolerated).
Sure, unlike almost every other linked article on these forums, this guy isn't outright joygasming about ME3, but that alone isn't a solid enough point to automatically claim that he is wrong.

Meh, now I am second guessing myself for ever posting the link. /sigh

Where did I say his entire opinion was incorrect? My point it, the article is biased. Are there reasons to be concerned for an RPG fan? Sure. ME2 & DA2 are the reasons. Are the reasons to be less concerned seeing ME3 gameplay videos? Yes. But the author fails to ackowledge the latter, focusing solely on aspects that support the "BioWare abandonds RPG" theory.

Kel_Sjet wrote...

Please do not equate "he didn't say ME3 will be awesome!" as being the same thing as "he said ME3 will suck".

Seriously, take your own advice. Just because someone says 'this article is not the best' doesn't mean he/she automatically says 'BioWare can do no wrong!!! Any negative opinoins will not be tolerated!'. So far, you've been dismissive to anyone who dared to disagree with any point of the article.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 07 août 2011 - 10:12 .

[Loup Blanc]

This article is DEAD ON.

[Eduadinho]

it was a rant the author makes vast claims about what fans of bioware games like. Also playing a demo and then stating that it represents the whole game is stupid. Also just because the author shares the same opinion as you does not make it valid and a great argument that we should agree with.

[Kel_Sjet]

Eduadinho wrote...

it was a rant the author makes vast claims about what fans of bioware games like. Also playing a demo and then stating that it represents the whole game is stupid. Also just because the author shares the same opinion as you does not make it valid and a great argument that we should agree with.

Urgh.

No one wants you to agree with him. I certainly never asked that. I just asked that you don't outright dismiss it just because it isn't yet another article whose entire content is nothing more than "ME will be awesome! Omg so awesome!", which, unfortunately is exactly what you just did.

/sigh I guess that was asking too much.

[legion999]

Two of those comments made me facepalm..
As for the article Mass Effect's inventory was a clunky mess. It usually took half an hour to clear it out. Admittedly they could of improved it but I won't shed a tear that it's gone.

As for Dragon Age 2:
1. It wasn't made by the people who developed Mass Effect. Different teams develop different games, companies do it alot.
2. They tried something different but due to the timeframe it didn't work that well. Looking at you recycled dungeons..
3. People make mistakes. Just because they f&£ked up once it doesn't mean every game from now on is going to be mediocre.

[Blooddrunk1004]

They listened too much Awesome-Button's poor marketing.
As for the Gears of War... I don't understand why are they bringing up this game just now.
ME2 already used GoW combat. The main problem i think, it's that Bioware showed us too many videos about combat and to less about RPG elements. Probably the reason why everyone is so concerned why the game focuses soo much on combat. I realy wish the next thing they would show us is: the Normandy, space exploration (if it will be even possible), free roaming or some side missions with different companions.

[shepskisaac]

Blooddrunk1004 wrote...

Probably the reason why everyone is so concerned why the game focuses soo much on combat.

The game focuses so much on combat OR perhaps its the marketing that focuses so much on combat/action? Thse could be quote two different things.

[eternalnightmare13]

LGTX wrote...

"A great many BioWare fans – myself included – fell in love with games like Mass Effect precisely because they are not Gears of War."

I stopped reading there. I fell in love with Mass Effect because it was Mass Effect, not because it was an "RPG" or "something new" or NOT something else, etc.

.

QFT