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Laidlaw interview Aug 5, 2011


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#51
Valcutio

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nitefyre410 wrote...

I Pop Tarts wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

I Pop Tarts wrote...

Mr Woo, your tone comes across as quite confrontational. While there is a bunch of sarcasm in the posts you quoted, they also contain a lot of thruth. Responding to that in a confrontational manner just furthers the impression that Bioware is merely throwing around PR speak when they say they're listening and will continue to go down the same path and make the same mistakes they did with DA2 with a "Deal with it" sort of attitude.


So to be clear its okay for us to post confrontationally, but if he responds to that, he's a bad bad man?


I don't think any of the posts he quoted were confrontational, and I certainly don't think that in Biowares current position responding in a confronational manner is going to help their situation.

Unless you're trying to make the argument that two wrongs make a right.... which it seems like you are.

 

He was not being confronational -   He was as they say  in some parts  "Tellin' it like it is".    


Stanley Woo does his best to treat people with respect. The fact that he tries to communicate his feelings honestly to the community should be applauded.

Some people seriously go out of their way to be offended around here.

#52
DarkDragon777

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Valcutio wrote...



Stanley Woo does his best to treat people with respect. The fact that he tries to communicate his feelings honestly to the community should be applauded.

Some people seriously go out of their way to be offended around here.



This. I may not agree with what he thinks but I do respect him for being honest and talking to people.

#53
The Edge

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[quote]OdanUrr wrote...

[quote]nitefyre410 wrote...

Paragraphs of good discussion...

 The point I'm trying to make, and I'm curious about the answer, is, does every game belonging to every genre need to have the same degree of accessibility? And why?
[/quote]

I believe the answer is no. Other's can argue yes for profit reasons, though...

Was this ever a problem early in gaming history (accessiblity from other genres, I mean)? Right now it seems like we're done drilling down an individual genre and rather just sticking straws in others to drink up a wider audience for more profit...

#54
Ryllen Laerth Kriel

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To one person a thing is "busted" and to another it is treasure. That's why scrap yards have such cool stuff in them. Quite a few elements Bioware stripped out were aspects I found fun.

I had to laugh at the comment about the grand conspiracy and that people thought Bioware did it because they were "MEAN." That seemed like a sympathy grab. Possibly just the context of the comment was different but it's how it comes across.

I understand Bioware wanting to make their intellectual property more popular and "accessible" through compromise. But...is their vision lost from it's original conception now. Is it still a Bioware roleplaying game with all the compromise? Making many compromises with anything can generate very generic and undesirable results when you try to please everyone. You can't please everyone.

#55
HTTP 404

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is this a thread about an article talking about another BW thread? haha, funny stuff

I just want a good game moving forward.  whats done is done, if its enough for some bioware fans to move on then they should move on.  I have from other game developers but Im waiting for more from bioware.  The devs don't have to come here to read the forums much less interact with us.  For that I appreciate that.

Modifié par HTTP 404, 08 août 2011 - 06:13 .


#56
mousestalker

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Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

To one person a thing is "busted" and to another it is treasure. That's why scrap yards have such cool stuff in them. Quite a few elements Bioware stripped out were aspects I found fun.

I had to laugh at the comment about the grand conspiracy and that people thought Bioware did it because they were "MEAN." That seemed like a sympathy grab. Possibly just the context of the comment was different but it's how it comes across.

I understand Bioware wanting to make their intellectual property more popular and "accessible" through compromise. But...is their vision lost from it's original conception now. Is it still a Bioware roleplaying game with all the compromise? Making many compromises with anything can generate very generic and undesirable results when you try to please everyone. You can't please everyone.


As far as Bioware losing their vision, Bioware is made up of its employees. Bioware has a reputation of being a top ranked employer. It is considered to be one of the better places to work. If Bioware employees were suddenly blinded, I think we would have heard about it. I'm willing to bet that, adjusting for age, Bioware employees see as well as they ever have.

Addendum: Stanley Woo is wrong. Truth is not subjective. But that is a discussion for another forum, if such a discussion is even appropriate for the Internet.

Modifié par mousestalker, 08 août 2011 - 06:17 .


#57
HTTP 404

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mousestalker wrote...

Addendum: Stanley Woo is wrong. Truth is not subjective. But that is a discussion for another forum, if such a discussion is even appropriate for the Internet.


You might be the first person to think that truth is definitive? curious.

#58
Morroian

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mousestalker wrote...

Addendum: Stanley Woo is wrong. Truth is not subjective. But that is a discussion for another forum, if such a discussion is even appropriate for the Internet.

Can I recommend the film Rashomon to you.

#59
Ryllen Laerth Kriel

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Fact and truth are two very different things.

#60
nitefyre410

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OdanUrr wrote...

If I understand you correctly, you mean to say Bioware is trying to make the DA franchise more accessible to players, is that right? That DA2 was intended as a point of entry for new players to join in. The obvious problem is that ideally any company would want a constant influx of new players while retaining their core fanbase. If you reboot the franchise in every instalment to that end, you'll eventually trade one group of players for another. Key word: trade.

 

 Saying DA 2 is a reboot is  a bit extreme but  I see where you are going -  I will use  Street Fighter 4 and  an example now they Changed the engine and look from the  Street Fighter that I grew up with but a Fireball is still QFC +P and  Shoryuken is FDF + P. Those have not changed - they same with DA 2 - may look  different from  DA:O  but its my 4 party members , A tank, Melee DPS, Range DPS and Healer  fighting   X mob to gain X amount of experience. 

Now yes  it is a bit of  trade and its a trade that has to be made for the long term health of the Gerne . Look no futher that Japanese Game Development and JRPGS.  They stayed stagnant  for years did not trying to reach out new fans  fearing  that the old ones would not welcome some of the changes.  Now they are trying to make get back on top of there game.  

Why  have JRPGS  decline - Same stories, same  Grind to kingdom mechanics, etc, etc.   Tell me what did  DA:O do for the Western  RPG -    While good - It was still  same Story, same, Same type of setting, Elves, Dwarves,  Horde of  X evil creature.    I started out on JRPG's and have been suffered  watching  them decline... I don't now want to see that happen to Westren RPG.

The second point. Players are smart, contrary to popular opinion, at least where gaming is concerned. We embrace challenge, unless it's purposefully out of our reach, like having to play a game with a keyboard, a mouse, and two joysticks at the same time, or having to press two keys for an attack that are on opposite ends of the keyboard. Developers are smart people too. There's a reason why I don't need to look in a manual for the keys to attack, reload, run, or jump, or why we adapt easily enough to different UIs. Naturally, there's a learning curve involved, same as with every game out there regardless of genre. That is usually addressed with tutorials that may or may not be a part of the campaign itself.



True players are smart, so are you and  I  but explaining something is  simplified easy to digest manner is not dumbing down.  Look at    Through the Wormhole with Morgan Freeman on the  Sci Channel.  A show about some of the most complex   science on the face planet yet  you and I could  set it and watch and understand what they are saying because they are explaining in a easy to disgest manner.  That  right there is accesbility.   I can go on  net look a sci journal and  "Hey that sounds like this - Okay I what this guy is talking about some what."  Achivement  unlocked : Learning.    


So, summing up, accessibility is all well and good. If the game's hard to play, chances are you're not going to play it. But let us not underestimate the player's ability to adapt. There are hundreds of games out there, and I bet we all play several genres that have their own set of rules. There's also the odd game that is a b**** to play at first, but a deep story and interesting characters may drive us to learn and assimilate its rules (e.g.: The Witcher. You know this to be true).



Right but to adapt  the player  has to have  basic point from which to start  adapting.   Fighting Game  IE.   If you don't even  how to do a Fireball how are going  to  do a 3 hit combo involing one.   Once again   your right there but the trick is they put the information in chunks that you and I could understand and we able to assimilate.  What you don't is throwing at them they can't or overload and not  assilimated the information anymore.   Like a sponge if soaks up too much water it won't suck any more.  


On a more personal note, RPGs have always been known to be somewhat hardcore in their fanbase. They take more thought, time, and effort to play than practically any other genre. This is not meant no demean other genres, it's merely a statement of fact. Take Oblivion for example, with its hundreds of hours of gameplay it's not a game to be taken lightly. The point I'm trying to make, and I'm curious about the answer, is, does every game belonging to every genre need to have the same degree of accessibility? And why? 

 


True but almost  as Hardcore as say the Fighting Game base  - those guys  essh. go to Shoryuken.com  and you will see why those guys take there fighting Seriously.

I glad you brought up Oblivion but because I have played a lot of RPG's in my life and absolutely  could not stand that game.   It deserves the credit its gets but  I could not play it at all  I felt like my character was just no progressing at  all from when I first stated and well that killed it  for me from there.  That being said I am going to give Skyrim a shot.       

No but with as Few big name RPGS out  on market and few know names  there has to be some  doorway in that the non RPG played game enter in through.  Why? Ecomonics if no one is buying the games, then no money is made which means less development and well you can see where  that goes.  Today  ecomony demands it - people have less money to spend on games.   Take some one  who was thinking about Dragon Age but  has played games like Batman: AA.  They only money to spend on one  game you want them to buy your game not that other guys.  You want them thinking  "Hey I want something new -  I never played this before let me give this shot" instead of   " You know i want something new but I don't want feel like  I waste my money... Let me stick with what I know."    Or a Parent that has two  Kids but only money to spend on 1 game during the Holiday season. 

Modifié par nitefyre410, 08 août 2011 - 06:50 .


#61
Realmzmaster

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The article that the OP references is not an interview. Those quotes are taken right from this forum. Many of which are responses to other posts by forum mates. The thread being referenced is giving a lot of constructive feedback for going forward. The developers are there talking to us. The discussion has been excellent and extremely civil.

I appreciate Stanley Woo, Mike Laidlaw, John Epler, David Gaider and other developers for coming to that thread and dialoguing with the fanbase, because they do not have to do it.

I am quite sure that EA PR would rather they stayed off the forum. The point is that the development team is not going back to DAO style. They will listen to what we have to say within the direction they are taking.

You as the consumer can decide whether you wish to engage them in that dialog or not. As Stanley Woo has stated and I agree with him. We will listen to the fans, but we will not be govern by them.

We can have a cooperative dialog and get some of the things we want back. You will not get everything you want. I will not get everything I want.

I started playing text adventures on PDP-10 (Colossal Cave Adventure) back in 1976 along with D & D. I played the first CRPGs to come out Akalabeth, Hellfire Warrior, Temple of Aphasi , Wizardry and others.
I like DA2 and I like DAO. There were flaws in both games that I shared with the developers when they were released. I diagree with some of the points made by people on this forum. but I respect their right to disagree.

I also understand Bioware's business is to make money and a reasonable profit. Also as a business their job is to grow their audience by attracting new players.

A lot of gamers are saying that BIoware is dissing their fanbase by trying to appeal to new gamers. So what is Bioware suppose to do keep established fanbase happy and watch it slowly shrink through attrition or find ways to attract new players and try to keep most of the established fanbase happy.

Some of you think DA2 failed in that regard. You have a right to that opinion. But if a company never experiments there is no progress. It simply more of the same. Now some of may want more of the same. I do not. I like games that break the mold and do things differently like Ultima IV, PST and now DA2. The execution for DA2 was flawed and the short development time did not help, but DA2 is not a terrible game in my opinion. I had fun and that for me is the one standard I have. I do not care how well executed a game is or how pretty it looks if I am not having fun.

I remember when people were moaning and groaning on this forum that DAO was not Baldur's Gate III. Forum mates thought Bioware was nuts for wanting to create a new IP and not sticking to D & D.Now Gamers think DAO is the best thing since sliced bread.

If Bioware had not gamble on a new IP there would be no DAO. So Bioware gambled again and came up short. That happens. Bioware must learn from its mistakes. The ones it made with DAO, Awakening, DAO DLC and DA2. Legacy showed some promise in that direction.

So you have the right to moan and groan about DA2, but it serves no constructive purpose. I prefer to have my voice heard in a constructive and civil manner. YMMV.

#62
mesmerizedish

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Brockololly wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Swords in DAII are the same size as swords in Origins.


Doesn't mean thats a good thing either way. My god the 2 handed Key sword in Legacy is atrocious. Hawke can't even hold the thing in one hand without his hand clipping through it.


I'm really not surprised that the point I was actually addressing was cast aside so you could whine yet again. I think that's called strawmanning? Have you complained about bowstrings yet?

For the record, I thought that both sword versions of The Hawke's Key looked really awesome, with the exception of the incredibly thick hilts. But, instead of whining about it every chance I get, I'm just going to narrow said hilts. I'll post screenshots, but then I won't release to the public just to spite you.


Mash Mashington wrote...

Esbatty wrote...

Mike Laidlaw is a beautiful man.


Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 08 août 2011 - 07:56 .


#63
Erani

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I'm curious. Why are we not having this discussion over there...in that other thread? The one all those quotes come from? ^_^

Also, yes most of us are disappointed with area re-use, waves, out-of-thin-air people, act 3 writing and blood mages, but let's just move forward by having good dialogue with the devs and giving objective feedback...you know, trying to make things better for future games. All this CoD comparisons and DA2 sales were terribluh (which you know, they weren't) is just tiring.
Edit: @RealMaster, nicely put! :happy: + I agree with @esbatty :wub:

Modifié par Erani, 08 août 2011 - 08:00 .


#64
Bryy_Miller

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Cutlass Jack wrote...

And yet in the actual thread everyone is being relatively civil. Which is why actual dialogue is happening.



#65
xkg

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ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
I'm just going to narrow said hilts. I'll post screenshots, but then I won't release to the public just to spite you.


Rly ? OH c'mon, are you 10yrs old ?

Comments like this really pisses me off. You you can stuff your mods right up your ...
You dont want to share your mod ? Its ok, but keep it to yourself because NO ONE CARES.

#66
Guest_Puddi III_*

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xkg wrote...

NO ONE CARES.


You seem to care an awful lot. :P

#67
xkg

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Filament wrote...

xkg wrote...

NO ONE CARES.


You seem to care an awful lot. :P


About lame comments, yes. About his mods, not so much.
There are tons of mods out there - so I guess I can live without guru Ishmael's hilts. 

#68
Zeevico

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Stanley Woo wrote...

Filament wrote...

I'm pretty sure Stanley Woo misinterpreted that post by Zeevico and thought it was honestly supportive of BioWare as opposed to sarcastic.

Indeed. I thought someone had finally started to get what that whole misunderstood and oft-cited "trying to steal CoD's audience" concept was about.

It was just an observation. I didn't intend to be critical; I was simply saying that these games are similar and there are reasons to think that they are similar.

I do think this undertaking is a "bridge too far." It sounds good in theory but the trouble is that it involves removing what can make the game complex. The end result is that you may not have an RPG that is complex --or over complex, depending on how you look at it. And all this is fine, and it may win you players, and more power to you if that's the case.

To my mind, a "welcoming" game isn't easy, it just has an easy
to play tutorial level, separate from the actual game and not
compulsory, which teaches the core mechanics of the game.

Best of luck.

#69
mesmerizedish

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Oops, looks like I hit a nerve B)

And it's "her."

#70
xkg

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ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Oops, looks like I hit a nerve B)

And it's "her."


Oh yes you did, because despite the fact that I am huge douche, I like helping people if I can. 
And what you said was basically "I can help you, but i wont" Posted Image grrrrrr

But nevermind, let's not dwell on it any longer.

Modifié par xkg, 08 août 2011 - 09:09 .


#71
Ollys

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Esbatty wrote...

Mike Laidlaw is a beautiful man.


And then Laidlaw became another bisexual love interest.

Modifié par Ollys, 08 août 2011 - 10:41 .


#72
Zeevico

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In the Bioverse, every love interest is a bisexual love interest.

Was that too obvious?

Modifié par Zeevico, 08 août 2011 - 11:00 .


#73
kingjezza

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TRfore wrote...

http://www.pcgamer.c...-it-was-busted/

I'm curious to know what the DA2 team found busted in DA:O.


It's a shame this thread has turned into another ****fest as I think the original question is a decent one, it's something I would like to know as well.

I asked in the other thread what they thought was so busted about Origins they felt it had to be completely removed, I got no answer.

It's mike Laidlaw's own words so it seems like a pretty easy question to answer, what was busted in Origins?

#74
alex90c

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Zeevico wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Filament wrote...

I'm pretty sure Stanley Woo misinterpreted that post by Zeevico and thought it was honestly supportive of BioWare as opposed to sarcastic.

Indeed. I thought someone had finally started to get what that whole misunderstood and oft-cited "trying to steal CoD's audience" concept was about.

It was just an observation. I didn't intend to be critical; I was simply saying that these games are similar and there are reasons to think that they are similar.

I do think this undertaking is a "bridge too far." It sounds good in theory but the trouble is that it involves removing what can make the game complex. The end result is that you may not have an RPG that is complex --or over complex, depending on how you look at it. And all this is fine, and it may win you players, and more power to you if that's the case.

To my mind, a "welcoming" game isn't easy, it just has an easy
to play tutorial level, separate from the actual game and not
compulsory, which teaches the core mechanics of the game.

Best of luck.


"easy to learn hard to master" is what I like in RPGs. When I first got DA:O, while my first playthrough was hellish, I was able to grasp most of the game's concepts quite easily. It was then in my second playthrough when I started to realise what worked best from what didn't that I was able to create pretty good builds for my characters which turned me from frequent reloads on normal difficulty (with occasional turning down to easy) to being able to just rely on autosaves most of the time (and rarely using them too) and getting through the game much quicker. Then I turned it up to Nightmare, and while the sharp decrease in my characters' damage output was quite a shock at first I got used to it.

and guys, saying Stanley Woo is being disrespectful is pretty funny considering the amount of crap that gets spewed around here, from myself included.

It's like:

guy 1: I HATE BIOWARE THEY SUCK THEY SOLD THEMSELVES TO EA HEY LAIDLAW YOU SUCK DIE DIE DIE
bioware employee: ok honestly, that's out of order
guy 1: SEE HOW RUDE THEY ARE? THATS OUTRAGEOUS! HONESTLY BIOWARE, KEEP CONTROL OF YOUR STAFF, THEY'RE SO RUDE.

Modifié par alex90c, 08 août 2011 - 11:26 .


#75
Zeevico

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kingjezza wrote...

TRfore wrote...

http://www.pcgamer.c...-it-was-busted/

I'm curious to know what the DA2 team found busted in DA:O.


It's a shame this thread has turned into another ****fest as I think the original question is a decent one, it's something I would like to know as well.

I asked in the other thread what they thought was so busted about Origins they felt it had to be completely removed, I got no answer.

It's mike Laidlaw's own words so it seems like a pretty easy question to answer, what was busted in Origins?

Take a look at the changes they made. That should give you a fair idea of what they thought was wrong and right with Origins.