230 réponses à ce sujet

[Xewaka]

Am I the only one who finds amusing that a gamer news site pulls off what passes as an interview by copypasting from the company forums?

[Kroepoek]

1. Area Re-use.

An obvious problem, and one we are keenly aware of. Not an intentional issue, and certainly not “by design” but something that happened and needs to be addressed

Not an intentional issue. What did you do, create the game with your eyes closed?

[deserk]

What I really really liked about Dragon Age Origins was that BioWare DEVs at that time were so keen on making "spiritual successor" to Baldur's Gate series, and that got me excited quite a lot since then I knew we were going to get a quality game. And in many ways, that we did, as Dragon Age Origins is one of the best RPGs of recent years.

Nowadays with Dragon Age 2, I keep hearing that you guys are trying to make DA2 more accessible to people who don't normally play RPGs. By making it less complicated, simpler and more flashy. The thing is, you guys are making it less accessible to people who are already playing RPGs.

I seriously wish you guys could take a step back to Dragon Age: Origins, and further expand on what made that game great.

[Zcorck]

Fix1o0 wrote...

1. Area Re-use.

An obvious problem, and one we are keenly aware of. Not an intentional issue, and certainly not “by design” but something that happened and needs to be addressed

Not an intentional issue. What did you do, create the game with your eyes closed?

I have to agree. While I mean no disrespect towards BioWare, it is a hard pill to swallow considering how Mass Effect got slammed for the same issue several years ago.
Kinda expected that BioWare overall stayed aware of criticism they could use to improve their games, especially the part area-reuse in ME1 had in ME2's direction.
Good to hear that Legacy shows that they've taken the criticism to heart though.

[Xewaka]

Fix1o0 wrote...

1. Area Re-use.
An obvious problem, and one we are keenly aware of. Not an intentional issue, and certainly not “by design” but something that happened and needs to be addressed

Not an intentional issue. What did you do, create the game with your eyes closed?

No, they intended to have a higher variety of areas, but since each area was hand-crafted from scratch, it took a higher amount of time than originally intended, and with an inflexible schedule, that meant less areas crafted.

[TEWR]

Davasar wrote...

“If I’m going to ****** you guys off, it’s going to be because I still firmly believe that RPGs do need to be more accessible to new players,” Laidlaw adds.


So that means making an RPG for people who don't like RPGs (FPS/action game crowd who do not like reading and have the attention span of a gnat) and alienating and purposefully pissing on your original fan base.

Working out great, just look at how the sales went....

Oh...wait...

Looks like broken promises, appeasement to people who don't like RPGs, lies and bait and switching didn't do so well for you EAware.

I'll never believe anything you say again in regards to making a game the likes of DAO (which you've pointedly said you will not be doing EVER again).  Making crappy, short term profits grabbing games?  Sure...I can believe you'll go all out for that.

As I have said before:

We will at least respect you if you come out and say flat out:  "We hate you people who liked DOA.  We aren't making games for you anymore.  Get lost."

Ah yes because anyone who likes FPS games is an idiot


Making an RPG more accessible to non-RPG players doesn't mean streamlining it into oblivion. If you actually looked at Mike Laidlaw's posts, you'd see that he wants to get 10 million RPG fans:

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Let's be frank. To my understanding the "Bioware wants to appeal to the Call of Duty crowd" myth devloped like this:



Greg Zeschuk comments in an interview that Bioware aspires to sell to a larger audience, and that numbers like Call of Duty's 10 million are the long-term goal.


DAII's combat is, in fact,  faster, and more "actiony." Some RPG elements are removed (skills), and others are changed (iconic follower armor, rather than complete customization).


Magical Alchemy happens and "Apparently Dragon Age only wants Call of Duty players to play their game." is the result.

[/list]In truth, what we would like is for there to be 10 million RPG fans out there, not to toss aside RPG fans. If anything, I suspect that we didn't put enough focus on stats, cross-class combos, and so on in our message, which would have helped.

And to be really honest, if we were dead-set on cutting RPG systems, we could have cut much, much deeper.

 


You know, I'm starting to think that the people who have this mentality of "CoD players are just a bunch of idiots" are the real idiots.

[TEWR]

Xewaka wrote...

Am I the only one who finds amusing that a gamer news site pulls off what passes as an interview by copypasting from the company forums?

The fans are the ones who are doing all the real work. We're the ones who are interviewing the devs.

[fchopin]

I will give Mr Laidlaw credit for trying, that is the best i can do for now until i have more info about changes.

[Slayer299]

Zeevico wrote...
Take a look at the changes they made. That should give you a fair idea of what they thought was wrong and right with Origins.

Then it seems that  they felt pretty much most of DAO was broken and needed to be revamped in DA2.

@Stanley Woo - Mr. Woo, I appreciate you taking the time to come here and talk to us here but too many questions are left unanwered and the changes done in Legacy are nice, they were not the real problems more than 1 or 2 of the people here wanted to be addressed. The wave mechanic and reused areas were bad implementation. A lack of dialogue, choices that have meaning (long/short term), a disjointed story, flat compananions/NPC's (compared to any BW game previous), Kirkwall- the City that Never Changes and lifeless outdoor/indoor areas, to name a few.

Those are some things I would like to hear about. I hesitate to use TW2 as an example, but it did in fact get more than a few things correct and made the absence/minimalizing of those same things in DA2 more glaring.

[TEWR]

Here are some things that Call of Duty and the DA series (and more than likely more RPGs) actually share:

• Experience and level up
  
• Weapons that vary in how much damage they deal
  
• The ability to customize your class

That's all I can think up at the moment, but I'm almost positive there are more than just those three.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 08 août 2011 - 01:08 .

[kingjezza]

Zeevico wrote...

kingjezza wrote...

TRfore wrote...

http://www.pcgamer.c...-it-was-busted/

I'm curious to know what the DA2 team found busted in DA:O.

It's a shame this thread has turned into another ****fest as I think the original question is a decent one, it's something I would like to know as well.

I asked in the other thread what they thought was so busted about Origins they felt it had to be completely removed, I got no answer.

It's mike Laidlaw's own words so it seems like a pretty easy question to answer, what was busted in Origins?

Take a look at the changes they made. That should give you a fair idea of what they thought was wrong and right with Origins.

That doesn't really answer the question though, it's not about what they believe to be wrong or right, tactical camera, wasn't busted, gone, companion armour, wasn't busted, gone etc

In Mike's own words they stripped things out of DA2 that were in Origins because they were outright busted, I'm not interested in design choice changes, like getting rid of Origins UI in favour of that horrible DA2 UI, just the things they found broken in Origins that had to be removed.

I don't see that as an unreasonable request really, especially considering it was Mike Laidlaw who came out with this statement.

[dheer]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
Swords in DAII are the same size as swords in Origins.

They're the same length. Quite a few more look like boat oars to me however.

[xkg]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Here are some things that Call of Duty and the DA series (and more than likely more RPGs) actually share:

• Experience and level up
  
  
  
  
• Weapons that vary in how much damage they deal
  
  
  
  
• The ability to customize your class

That's all I can think up at the moment, but I'm almost positive there are more than just those three.

Ok lets see.
Tennis games (Virtua Tennis, Top Spin...)

Experience and level up.
Weapons Tennis rockets that vary in how much damage power they deal have
The ability to customize your class (You can choose to be a Net player, Hard Hitter, Tactical ... etc , and later you can customise it further)

Even more. You can completly customise the look of your player, you can change the outfit, ....

But wait. What was your point ? Should DA3 feature more tennis elements because both games share some similar features?
Thedasian Open ?

[mesmerizedish]

xkg wrote...

Ok lets see.
Tennis games (Virtua Tennis, Top Spin...)

Experience and level up.
Weapons Tennis rockets that vary in how much damage power they deal have
The ability to customize your class (You can choose to be a Net player, Hard Hitter, Tactical ... etc , and later you can customise it further)

Even more. You can completly customise the look of your player, you can change the outfit, ....

But wait. What was your point ? Should DA3 feature more tennis elements because both games share some similar features?
Thedasian Open ?

His point was that maybe BioWare should use those aspects of tennis games to draw players of tennis games to RPGs. "Look, Dragon Age is a lot like Roger Federer's French Open 2011, except you're hitting darkspawn instead of balls."

[TEWR]

Hah Thedosian Open. That's actually kinda funny.

But no, my point was that the people who play CoD are already playing games with some RPG elements. If they find out that there are other games with those elements, and more then just the ones I listed, then they may be attracted to Dragon Age: Origins and Dragon Age 2 and become RPG fans.

this notion that people have that "CoD players are idiots who dislike reading" is one of the biggest loads of horse**** I've ever seen on here.


edit: 'd by what appears to be a Merrill cat

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 08 août 2011 - 01:31 .

[nitefyre410]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Hah Thedosian Open. That's actually kinda funny.

But no, my point was that the people who play CoD are already playing games with some RPG elements. If they find out that there are other games with those elements, and more then just the ones I listed, then they may be attracted to Dragon Age: Origins and Dragon Age 2 and become RPG fans.

this notion that people have that "CoD players are idiots who dislike reading" is one of the biggest loads of horse**** I've ever seen on here.

This times  x100    

and previousily stated point  x1000


for love  all  that is holy more people  playing RPGs is not bad  Accessablity  =/=   dumbing down.

Modifié par nitefyre410, 08 août 2011 - 01:33 .

[Salaya]

I wish more people was capable of enjoying CRPGs as origins. I love that kind of games, and really makes me feel sad that developers, for whatever reason, think that they need to change the genre so drastically to appeal more public.

[Blastback]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Hah Thedosian Open. That's actually kinda funny.

Orlais so would.

I admit, while I'm not offended by the efforts to apeal to other gamers such as Call Of Duty fans by pointing out the similarities between RPG's and CoD, I'm sceptical on Dragon Age's ability to appeal to them in large numbers without being really watered down into an action game.  This is based on my personal experince with some, who found the Mass Effect franchise to "RPGy" for their taste.  And if there is any RPG that I'd expect to appeal to shooter fans, it's Mass Effect.  

This is nothing against shooter fans, heck, I'm playing Halo Reach as I type this. 

[Aaleel]

I think it's easier for RPG players to get into shooters than it is the other way around. I've played COD4, Crysis and BF2-BC because friends pestered me until I tried them lol.

But the problem with going from shooters to RPGs, which those same friends can't stand. There's way too much dialogue for them to sit through even skipping it all. If they made the next COD or BF game where it spans 5 years. You go to war, come home spend time on leave and go through everyday life, and then get deployed again. Where is goes deeply into the soldiers personal life, It would flop. I guarantee people would call it boring.

You can streamline and compromise on A LOT of stuff in an RPG, but the one main thing that makes it an RPG is the one thing you can't compromise on, the main character/story. That's why I don't see how you ever appeal to shooter players. They should really focus on Action/Adventure players.

Modifié par Aaleel, 08 août 2011 - 01:57 .

[nitefyre410]

Aaleel wrote...

I think it's easier for RPG players to get into shooters than it is the other way around. I've played COD4, Crysis and BF2-BC because friends pestered me until I tried them lol.

But the problem with going from shooters to RPGs, which those same friends can't stand. There's way too much dialogue for them to sit through even skipping it all. If they made the next COD or BF game where it spans 5 years. You go to war, come home spend time on leave and go through everyday life, and then get deployed again. Where is goes deeply into the soldiers personal life, It would flop. I guarantee people would call it boring.

You can streamline and compromise on A LOT of stuff in an RPG, but the one main thing that makes it an RPG is the one thing you can't compromise on, the main character/story. That's why I don't see how you ever appeal to that crowd. They should really focus on Action/Adventure players.

Now that depends on the writer of the  story ...   Niel Gieman can get in you a story , set up, play it  out and get it done  and not bog ya down with very long Dialogue and describition. 

Shooters are also starting to come  impass as well  with games  like Bioshock  and Half Life - can COD and BF 3 continue just skate by with lack of enaging story telling.   Which is one of the  reason why Games like Resistance  and Killzone  have appeal.

[ArcanistLibram]

I probably should have just cut content to reduce the re-use, but that’s a tough call to make in the moment.

What.

[Babli]

Makes me confident that until Laidlaw is in charge, this series is dead to me.

Its just so funny. DA: O was a winning formula, best selling Bioware game and they ****ed it up so much.

[abaris]

Personally I think, its the first time, he adresses the real issues.

Until now, everytime he said something it was all about how fine and dandy everything turned out to be. Now he acknowledges the issues. Even if its rather late, one should give him some credit for that and wait what shakes out in the long run.

[Cutlass Jack]

ArcanistLibram wrote...

I probably should have just cut content to reduce the re-use, but that’s a tough call to make in the moment.

What.

Basically he was saying they had a choice of having more content that reused maps, or cutting that content. Which is why the map reuse never bothered me to the level it bothered others. Personally, I'd rather have more content and felt he made the better call.

But there was a third option they missed. Which was reuse maps, but make it less 'beat you over the head' obvious. For example doing lighting and atmospheric changes. Or blocking a door with a big boulder, instead of a blatant white concrete slab that doesn't match the dungeon. And finally, make the minimaps not show areas you can't get to. A little creativity could have gone a long way there.

[macrocarl]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

ArcanistLibram wrote...

I probably should have just cut content to reduce the re-use, but that’s a tough call to make in the moment.

What.

Basically he was saying they had a choice of having more content that reused maps, or cutting that content. Which is why the map reuse never bothered me to the level it bothered others. Personally, I'd rather have more content and felt he made the better call.

But there was a third option they missed. Which was reuse maps, but make it less 'beat you over the head' obvious. For example doing lighting and atmospheric changes. Or blocking a door with a big boulder, instead of a blatant white concrete slab that doesn't match the dungeon. And finally, make the minimaps not show areas you can't get to. A little creativity could have gone a long way there.

I agree.
I would also like to back up Mr. Laidlaw on his decision to have more content over reused maps. Having played through DA2, 3 times now, I got to say that even though that means I've now seen the same cave about 50+ times, I'm soooooooo glad BW fell on the side of more content.
Like there's differnt stuff in the same cave!
Cool stuff to boot!
So so so much better than those empty ME2 side missions that were contentless.