230 réponses à ce sujet

[Slayer299]

Phaelducan wrote...

Fandango, a lot of people bought the game and still didn't like it. My comment has absolutely nothing to do with sales. It has to do with the game's overall reception and acceptance by Bioware fans.

For every "I'm cancelling my pre-order!!!!!1111!!" comment after the demo came out there was another "I'll give it a shot, but I didn't like what I saw" one.

A tremendous amount of the pre-release buzz from these forums was intensely negative, and all I was saying is that there was no way the game could have recovered from that. Once the diehards had bought it, sales tanked.

Yes it could have recovered from the negative buzz on this forum, if it wasn't actually as flawed as it is than you wouldn't see the collapse of sales as it has continued. I'm sure some of the negative feelings here contributed, but as a whole, if DA2 was upto snuff the negativity would have been buried under positive reviews. 

[sympathy4saren]

Did anyone ACTUALLY cancel their preorder after the demo?

[Stanley Woo]

fchopin wrote...
Sorry but i can not agree with this.
 
Saying that you listened to all feedback means nothing if you already had fixed ideas on how you was going to make the game.
 
It's easy to say that you are listening and taking notes but how can we believe that when the results have no baring on the final product.

I always say that, at some point, you either believe what we're telling you or believe that we're lying. If you believe what we tell you, then great, we can continue the discussion and get into the details. If you don't believe us, then there's not a whole lot more to talk about, is there? We'll just have to prove ourselves with the next project, and then you can decide for yourself whether we "listened."

We're not here to promise or ensure that you'll never be disappointed. That's not our job. We're here to make the best game we think we can, and leave it to you to decide whether we've succeeded. Along the way, we'd like to get a bunch of feedback so we can determine where we can improve. We are listening and taking notes, but we're not promising that all (or any) of your specific feedback will make it into the next project. We do have to juggle all of your feedback with our own, after all.

[Stanley Woo]

Yrkoon wrote...

You're acting as if every game you've ever made has received the same level  of polarized reception that DA2 has received,     That this is somehow  "nothing new".  Dishonest.

Were you around during NWN? How about KotOR?

No, a polarized reception is nothing new. We've been getting a "polarized reception" on our games since NWN was revealed to be using the new D&D Third Edition rule set and not the familiar 2nd Edition AD&D rules. Or KotOR was revealed to be a more action RPG than anything we ever did. Or Jade Empire was being set in an Asian-inspired world.

Even your Boss disagrees with you.  Even HE has  publically noted the  extreme uniqueness of what went down with the community since DA2 came out.

"Extreme uniqueness?" I have my doubts that Mike would use that type of redundancy, but even if he did, what of it? Yes, people were pushed to the extremes of opinion, but no, that's nothing new for internet fandom. Yes, no other BioWare game has sparked this much controversy, but no, BioWare has weathered post-release controversy before.

We will get through this as we have our other periods of controversy, by talking more, listening more and letting you guys talk more.

[mesmerizedish]

sympathy4saren wrote...

Did anyone ACTUALLY cancel their preorder after the demo?

I'm sure some people did. And that would make BioWare happy. I really do think they'd rather not disappoint fans, even if it means the fans are warned away from the game.

I really liked the demo, though, and it made me excited for the game.

[furryrage59]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Blastback wrote...
Yeah, you might want to clarify your original point man, it's a bit muddled.

A lot of people on the DAO side of the argument will say word of mouth helped DAO's sales enormously, then when it comes to why DA2 didn't do so well, they'll say "word of mouth isn't that powerrful!"  There is a double standard.  DA2 is not perfect, but the hate campaign didn't help either.

DA:O side here.

Word of mouth helped DA:O and hindered DA:2.

Not sure where you are reading that we have been saying it isn't powerful because it clearly is.

[Jamie_edmo]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

You're acting as if every game you've ever made has received the same level  of polarized reception that DA2 has received,     That this is somehow  "nothing new".  Dishonest.

Were you around during NWN? How about KotOR?

No, a polarized reception is nothing new. We've been getting a "polarized reception" on our games since NWN was revealed to be using the new D&D Third Edition rule set and not the familiar 2nd Edition AD&D rules. Or KotOR was revealed to be a more action RPG than anything we ever did. Or Jade Empire was being set in an Asian-inspired world.

Too be fair though DA2 is probably the most polarising game that you have made, and shame on those people doubting Kotor:)

Modifié par Jamie_edmo, 08 août 2011 - 08:42 .

[Sylvianus]

sympathy4saren wrote...

Did anyone ACTUALLY cancel their preorder after the demo?

Not relevant at all. Many had blind faith in Bioware, and thought DA2 could be a little less good than Dao, but didn't expect to receive a sword in the heart.

On other forums and even on the bsn after the demo released, many people had doubted, then people told them, the demo will not reflect the game. They calmed down, put aside their concerns until the release.

Besides,  Information concretely, on DA2 were very thin, very little communication. We were reduced, frustrated at having to find foreign newspapers that turns a minimum of information on DA2 we did not already know. Et what we known were more words that praised this new game at the time.

And personally I find that confidence, and feelings are more important than critics or one hour of a demo.

Nothing will stop me to buy Mass Effect 3, as nothing has stopped people buying DA2, despite the screams on the bsn and the new doubts. They wanted to see for themselves, believing they would not have the disease which infected a lot of people.

Many were satisfied and weren't infected, I'm happy for them, but everyone wasn't so lucky.

I do not put the blame on anyone, but at this stage of an intense relationship, it is useless to pretend that the consumers were warned well in advance.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 08 août 2011 - 08:53 .

[Kimberly Shaw]

Thanks for replying Mr. Woo. I enjoyed your responses, bluntness and all. Please continue the refreshing honesty.

I'm a DAO shipper, and a BG1/2 shipper as well. I did love the combat and skill trees in DA2, however.

The biggest difference for me is the quality of quests from DAO (and previous) compared to DA2. I'd elaborate more, but the constructive criticism thread is full of that sort of thing (and a few from me). I really hope the quests are more fleshed out in DA3, instead of the quick go here-kill this-return here 15 minute blip quests that make up 90% of DA2.

[Serpieri Nei]

Zeevico wrote...

I'm just going to throw this out there.

Call of Duty is an RPG.

- Weapons deal set amounts of damage. Sure, it varies where you hit, but this just adds a new dimension to the role playing experience.

- Characters have set amounts of health.

- There are maps.

- You play as a fictional character.

- You kill fake people.

- The environment is fictional and grounded in a story.

This is probably what the developers are thinking when they say "we want to market this to CoD players"--look at all those glamourous similarities. Of course the differences are also a mile wide--but if only we bridge them we get a glorious action RPG game and a "welcoming" experience.

In other words we get

[Feraele]

TRfore wrote...

http://www.pcgamer.c...-it-was-busted/

I'm curious to know what the DA2 team found busted in DA:O.

I'm guessing:
Intelligent story
Good UI
Replayability
Mobs not exploding when hit
Swords are too small
Too many words to read on the screen

Thank you  

[devSin]

Stanley Woo wrote...

More time, more zots.

This so needs to be the new BW mantra.

I'm considering printing up t-shirts to send to you guys. :-)

[vEAch SUCKS]

[/quote]
"Extreme uniqueness?" I have my doubts that Mike would use that type of redundancy, but even if he did, what of it? Yes, people were pushed to the extremes of opinion, but no, that's nothing new for internet fandom. Yes, no other BioWare game has sparked this much controversy, but no, BioWare has weathered post-release controversy before.

We will get through this as we have our other periods of controversy, by talking more, listening more and letting you guys talk more.
[/quote]

And then ignoring what you talk about and think what the COD crowd would want and to that.

[smigetz]

dragon age 2 wasnt perfect i can honestly say that how ever i believe it was still a really good game it hads its pros and cons but overall it was quite enjoyable and im buying the dlc as well as origins 1st chance i get

[Realmzmaster]

craigdolphin wrote...

Posted By Stanley Woo...
Game development is a collaboration between dozens of developers across
multiple disciplines, who have to adhere to a specific vision and make
the best game they can with the zots they have.

I guess my only response to that is that the vision for DA2 is clearly different from that which resulted in DAO.

When the vision changed, the lead designer for DAO declined the project because he didn't want to make that game, and ultimately left Bioware. When the vision changed, the result was a number of changes that led to huge dissappontment amongst the established fans of DAO.

The team is being open and honest communicating with the fan base on the forums these days which is awesome But I think my concern is they're focussed on the details of how they can implement that same vision from DA2 in a more palatable way. I think that the 'vision' itself is the underlying problem, and trying to treat the symptoms without recognizing the cause is, ultimately, going to lead to continued dissappointment.

No disrespect intended to the devs. I just think that the vision for DA needs to return to the same as it was for DAO. The specific implementation, of course, can and should evolve.

What about the gamers who like the new vision and do not wish to return to the old vision? Where does that leave them? What about the new players who picked up DA2 some who did not like DAO? Are you saying they get kicked to the curb by Bioware?

All I know is somebody is going to be disappointed and that happens with any game.

Edit: A gamer like smigetz who liked DA2 and is now going to buy the DLC and DAO. If it was not for DA2 hooking him would he considering getting DAO?

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 09 août 2011 - 12:58 .

[Artemis_Entrari]

As long as Sandal is in Dragon Age 3, I won't be chasing after Bio employees with a pitchfork.

In all seriousness, I'm surprised by the outrage that still seems to be focused at DA2. I'll go on the record and say I prefer Origins, so it's not a case of me being a DA2 blind fan, but DA2 was still a very fun game, IMO.

It could do with some obvious improvements (ie. the re-used areas, which they seem to be acknowledging they'll address in future installments). I also think having the entire game happen in one city (with a sparse bit of traveling to areas just on the outskirts) took away from the "grand adventure traveling the land" feel that Origins had, but that's more of a personal preference than a game design flaw. And some of the quests were a bit disappointing, especially the ones where you randomly stumble across an item and suddenly you know exactly where to bring the item. But overall, DA2 is only a few tweaks away from being great. Hardly the disaster some are making it out to be.

If Dragon Age 3 can be like DA2, but with the necessary improvements (like I mentioned above), I'll be more than happy with it.

[Feraele]

FieryDove wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

Did you read? I said partially. I don't defend DA2 as an overly maligned superior product. I do think Origins was better. However, DA2 was totally crucified before it launched. It didn't have a chance, and the fanbase from Origins is largely why.

I don't understand. A lot of origin fans pre-ordered. I did at least.

I pre-ordered DA 2, last October...way early.    But at the same time we were being told about how DA would resemble Mass Effect, with the dialogue wheel and the pre-made Bioware character...plus we WERE ALSO informed that due to the way the sales went for DA: Origins and I suppose they also meant the Mass Effect games, that they were going to be catering to the console crowd more so than the Pc crowd.    Which heralded the changes in DA 2.     I didn't like the the Qunari changes, but I adapted.   I didn't like the premade Bioware character (ala Shephard from ME) but I adapted.    I just couldn't abide all the massive changes and total switch, from the Dragon Age Origins that I created 23 characters for, to something that was a pale shadow of the original and resembled Mass Effect to a great degree.

I will never understand why what was working ..to a great degree, was sacrificed and scrapped in favour of DA: 2 which I downloaded on release day, and to this day ..cannot remain interested in it long enough to finish my first play-through with it.     Nevermind purchase the current dlc.        

I was a fan.., but I know that future iterations of this game will always resemble DA:2  I get that the developpers won't ever do an "origins" again.     I'll have to be satisfied with what I have purchased,  count DA:2 as a loss and waste of my money, and I guess move on from there.    This is pretty much what Bioware wants,  their fanbase that loved DA:O don't rate with them any more..it's the fps crowd that is their new audience, ..maybe you'll want to go after the Duke Nukem crowd, yeah..that's an idea. 

[devSin]

Artemis_Entrari wrote...

As long as Sandal is in Dragon Age 3, I won't be chasing after Bio employees with a pitchfork.

Why do you think Bodahn tells you where they're going next? Enchantment?

Where Sandal goes, the game follows.

[ScorpioProX]

The more I hear of the Dev’s the less interest I have in things DA related.
Funny that if DA:O was so busted so may ppl liked it. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it…

They did not just make a RPG and see if they could attract a broader audience. They took a game with a big fan base so they would not lose any income on their valiant effort tor attract more people to RPGS.

The UI in DA2 was anything but better than the old one and hardly worth mentioning as far as game play and accessibility go’s. It looked nice just not as practical normal squares. For let’s say if you wanted to click it as a new player. But I guess that was more to attract ppl who enjoy a stylish game. Not for the people who were scared of rpgs but for the ones who thought they were ugly?

I also love how he states that “Players should not have to accept that Cave A is also Caves B through D.” And yet we had have to no apology, no compensation, just your right. Saying that you probably should have had to cut contend is a show of character. Knowing that no one wants to get less content, in an attempt to excuse yourself and make ppl like you for not cutting it out, even though it was bad, as everyone can agree on. Stop excusing yourself and own up.

But the character of this teams shins trough; it’s a lack of time, was unforeseen that everything looked the same, un-planed, it just happened, we can’t do it right the first time(but we kind of did just F’d up the second), we have one view fans have another, there was rain, the dog eaten the good story..
Everything but what would happen when you order a bad beer in almost any bar.

Beer enthusiast: Sir this beer I just ordered tastes like dishwashing water.
Bar: What? Sorry sir, here is a new one on the house!

Now the DA bar…

Beer enthusiast: Sir this beer I just ordered tastes like dishwashing water.
Bar: No, that’s just lemon flavored beer, were trying to attract ppl who like lemons but don’t like beer yet! We sold a lot already!
Beer enthusiast: But I wanted a beer…
Bar: Well maybe you like to buy these non lemon beer tasting ice cubes for in your lemon tasting beer?
Beer enthusiast: No I prefer a beer sir just like the first one I had…
Bar: Look buddy, I am listening to you, these ice cubes are a great improvement over the lemon tasting beer and are only 2$!
Beer enthusiast: …

[Morroian]

Feraele wrote...
  I didn't like the premade Bioware character (ala Shephard from ME) but I adapted.    I

This again, Hawke is not a pre-made character like Shepard. Within the limitations of having a voiced protagonist you are free to shape Hawke as much as you shaped any of the DAO origin characters.

[Daerog]

Goodness, just going through a couple pages of this thread and I can see people over reacting. BioWare made a game with more focus on the action parts than the rpg parts, it's not the first time, I wasn't on the boards when JE hit, but I can only imagine it being close to this, being more actiony but not having any JE game before it. Set character models, no classes, three stats to choose from, some extra talent points into abilites, combat just using a couple buttons... eh, still fun and entertaining story...

I certainly like DA:O more than DA2, but it was still a fun game. I like some of the changes made to combat animations, such as the mage doing more than poking the air to send a bolt out, but on the whole it was all a little over the top and took out some of the dark feeling when my rogue or warrior reminded me of when I watched Power Rangers as a kid.

And when someone says BioWare doesn't listen, just makes me think he/she hasn't been on the boards very much. They do, and that can also be a problem at times. Some people really didn't like that the Mako was taken out even though it seemed to be the most hated feature on the ME boards... then they bring in the flying tank and... well... people get divided all over again. Also, the romance threads have made some impact with how BW is making their games. Oh, and I'm so glad they changed how the Codex looked from DA:O to DA2, the way the codex looked in DA:O was bad.

Anyway, DA2 wasn't the best, but as long as BW focuses on their mission, which is making story driven/based games, I don't care if they make some games leaning away from what is considered RPG, they can make an RTS with a good story and that'll be fine with me. Although, it would suck if BW stopped making rpgs. Also, I will never understand people comparing DA2 to CoD, it just makes no sense to me, but I have only seen CoD played a couple times. Comparing it to Fable or JE or Diablo or KotOR for its combat changes would make more sense.

Edit: Not saying complaints and people not liking it are wrong, I'm just saying some, not all, are acting like BW kicked their pets off a 50 story building.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 09 août 2011 - 12:28 .

[errant_knight]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...

Did anyone ACTUALLY cancel their preorder after the demo?

I'm sure some people did. And that would make BioWare happy. I really do think they'd rather not disappoint fans, even if it means the fans are warned away from the game.

I really liked the demo, though, and it made me excited for the game.

I cam VERY close, but in the end, I decided that the game couldn't really be like that, that those must be early iterations of the combat and animations, that the inventory was only disabled for the demo, etc, etc. Wrongola. Next time, I'll believe the demo rather than giving any benefit of the doubt.

[nitefyre410]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Goodness, just going through a couple pages of this thread and I can see people over reacting. BioWare made a game with more focus on the action parts than the rpg parts, it's not the first time, I wasn't on the boards when JE hit, but I can only imagine it being close to this, being more actiony but not having any JE game before it. Set character models, no classes, three stats to choose from, some extra talent points into abilites, combat just using a couple buttons... eh, still fun and entertaining story...

I certainly like DA:O more than DA2, but it was still a fun game. I like some of the changes made to combat animations, such as the mage doing more than poking the air to send a bolt out, but on the whole it was all a little over the top and took out some of the dark feeling when my rogue or warrior reminded me of when I watched Power Rangers as a kid.

And when someone says BioWare doesn't listen, just makes me think he/she hasn't been on the boards very much. They do, and that can also be a problem at times. Some people really didn't like that the Mako was taken out even though it seemed to be the most hated feature on the ME boards... then they bring in the flying tank and... well... people get divided all over again. Also, the romance threads have made some impact with how BW is making their games. Oh, and I'm so glad they changed how the Codex looked from DA:O to DA2, the way the codex looked in DA:O was bad.

Anyway, DA2 wasn't the best, but as long as BW focuses on their mission, which is making story driven/based games, I don't care if they make some games leaning away from what is considered RPG, they can make an RTS with a good story and that'll be fine with me. Although, it would suck if BW stopped making rpgs. Also, I will never understand people comparing DA2 to CoD, it just makes no sense to me, but I have only seen CoD played a couple times. Comparing it to Fable or JE or Diablo or KotOR for its combat changes would make more sense.

Edit: Not saying complaints and people not liking it are wrong, I'm just saying some, not all, are acting like BW kicked their pets off a 50 story building.

 

I like this human , he understands.

[errant_knight]

craigdolphin wrote...

Posted By Stanley Woo...
Game development is a collaboration between dozens of developers across
multiple disciplines, who have to adhere to a specific vision and make
the best game they can with the zots they have.

I guess my only response to that is that the vision for DA2 is clearly different from that which resulted in DAO.

When the vision changed, the lead designer for DAO declined the project because he didn't want to make that game, and ultimately left Bioware. When the vision changed, the result was a number of changes that led to huge dissappontment amongst the established fans of DAO.

The team is being open and honest communicating with the fan base on the forums these days which is awesome But I think my concern is they're focussed on the details of how they can implement that same vision from DA2 in a more palatable way. I think that the 'vision' itself is the underlying problem, and trying to treat the symptoms without recognizing the cause is, ultimately, going to lead to continued dissappointment.

No disrespect intended to the devs. I just think that the vision for DA needs to return to the same as it was for DAO. The specific implementation, of course, can and should evolve.

This is pretty much how I feel about it--that the vision of the game has changed from being one that created a game that I enjoyed more than any other I played to one that l liked almost nothing about. I can't see  tweaking  the DA2 model to bring back a few elenents from the DA:O one doing the trick. I can't help but wish that if they wanted to make a game that was so different in so many ways, they'd created a new franchise with which to do it, rather than doing what they did to Dragon Age, which for me, gutted it.