230 réponses à ce sujet

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Blastback wrote...
Honestly, I think you overestimate the importance a lot of non RPG  gamers put on story.  Amoung my friends, it's the RPG fans that talk about a games story.  The shooter and action game fans barely pay attention to that.  They might love Lord of the Rings, but they don't look for story in games.

Just my personal observations

So how about BioWare makes games that make those gamers interested in the story?  How about BioWare makes a game that catches their interest like 300 caught movie goers interest?  The Hobbit is coming out, and you can bet your ass that's going to sell a lot of popcorn, if for no other reason than it's part of the LotRO story.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Davasar wrote...

Good games get good word of mouth.

Bad games get bad word of mouth.  Ya know, cause they're BAD.

Proof is in the sales and the community outcry, bud.

Live in denial all you want, but it don't change those simple facts.

You just disproved your own point.  DA2 was a great game, but it got bad word of mouth.  Why?  Jilted Girlfriends.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

And the only reason there was bad word of mouth in the first place was because people wanted DA:O2, right? And DA:O got good word of mouth because... what?

Because DAO was a nostalgic throwback.  I wouldn't buy DAO2 any more than I would buy BG3 or NWN2...  Because that kind of game bores me  now.  There's too much out there that's actually fun for me to play.

[Yrkoon]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Davasar wrote...

Good games get good word of mouth.

Bad games get bad word of mouth. Ya know, cause they're BAD.

Proof is in the sales and the community outcry, bud.

Live in denial all you want, but it don't change those simple facts.

You just disproved your own point. DA2 was a great game, but it got bad word of mouth. Why? Jilted Girlfriends.

LOL What?

Modifié par Yrkoon, 09 août 2011 - 03:14 .

[Blastback]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Blastback wrote...
Honestly, I think you overestimate the importance a lot of non RPG  gamers put on story.  Amoung my friends, it's the RPG fans that talk about a games story.  The shooter and action game fans barely pay attention to that.  They might love Lord of the Rings, but they don't look for story in games.

Just my personal observations

So how about BioWare makes games that make those gamers interested in the story?  How about BioWare makes a game that catches their interest like 300 caught movie goers interest?  The Hobbit is coming out, and you can bet your ass that's going to sell a lot of popcorn, if for no other reason than it's part of the LotRO story.

Who in this economy has money for popcorn at the movies?

And I said it earlier, but if these guys found Mass Effect to tedious, which some of them did, or they focused only on the action and skipped all the dialoge and interactions, which others did, I really don't think Dragon Age is going to appeal to them without transforming into Gauntlent Legends. 

But then I do have wierd friends.

[Davasar]

Stanley Woo wrote...

fchopin wrote...
Sorry but i can not agree with this.
 
Saying that you listened to all feedback means nothing if you already had fixed ideas on how you was going to make the game.
 
It's easy to say that you are listening and taking notes but how can we believe that when the results have no baring on the final product.

I always say that, at some point, you either believe what we're telling you or believe that we're lying. If you believe what we tell you, then great, we can continue the discussion and get into the details. If you don't believe us, then there's not a whole lot more to talk about, is there? We'll just have to prove ourselves with the next project, and then you can decide for yourself whether we "listened."

We're not here to promise or ensure that you'll never be disappointed. That's not our job. We're here to make the best game we think we can, and leave it to you to decide whether we've succeeded. Along the way, we'd like to get a bunch of feedback so we can determine where we can improve. We are listening and taking notes, but we're not promising that all (or any) of your specific feedback will make it into the next project. We do have to juggle all of your feedback with our own, after all.

The reason many people don't believe you guys is because of the facts and evidense.

For one, a Bioware employee was caught giving the game a 10/10 in order to bolster sales on an already faltering game.  Conflict of interest much?  Attempted decpetion?  Check on both of those.

And there is no better admittance of guilt then taking down such a review, which you guys did....when you got caught.

Innovation?  Sorry bro.  Everything done in this game was already done in previous games. 

Combat:  Japanese styled and already in a bazillion of their games
Interaction:  already done in Wing Commander 3 and 4.  Seriously?  You cant onnovate past a game that's over 10 years old?
Overly redundant/Recyled Maps:  Done in many other games
Teleporting/parachuting Enemies:  Innovation...?  This?  Seriously dude....Already done in a ton of games.
Friendship/Rivalry Stuff:  Wing Commander 3 and 4...and in that game it actually had reprecussions.

I could list more, but why?  The point is clear.

Now, with all that....saying that DA2 will be better then DAO (which you guys did) through 'innovation'?  That's not honesty bro.  That's trying to bait and switch, and on some people you guys did just that, which is why they were mad as hell.  And rightly so.

So when we don't believe you guys, the reason is we have CAUSE not to believe you guys.

Modifié par Davasar, 09 août 2011 - 03:19 .

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Blastback wrote...
Who in this economy has money for popcorn at the movies?

I donate blood before movies.  Helps with the snacks and makes the movie better.

And I said it earlier, but if these guys found Mass Effect to tedious, which some of them did, or they focused only on the action and skipped all the dialoge and interactions, which others did, I really don't think Dragon Age is going to appeal to them without transforming into Gauntlent Legends. 

There is a happy medium between all action and all story, and I have faith BioWare will find it.  Though that fruit will drop off the DA2 branch long before it drops off the DAO branch.    :lol:  My best analogy ever.

[Blastback]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

TheRealJayDee wrote...

And the only reason there was bad word of mouth in the first place was because people wanted DA:O2, right? And DA:O got good word of mouth because... what?

Because DAO was a nostalgic throwback.  I wouldn't buy DAO2 any more than I would buy BG3 or NWN2...  Because that kind of game bores me  now.  There's too much out there that's actually fun for me to play.

But from what I've seen both in real life and online about half the target audiance would rather buy those kind of games over DA2.  Sure Bioware could drop that half and appeal to the larger gaming community, but dumping half of your sure customers is a heavy risk.  *Edit* which doesn't matter to some extint, because the indications that I've seen would seem that Bioware does want Dragon Age to be more focused as a traditional RPG than you seem to be advocating Rip.

And if someone doesn't take that set up I will never forgive the BSN.

Modifié par Blastback, 09 août 2011 - 03:22 .

[Erode_The_Soul]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

The single reason the game is
thought of as bad is the word of mouth.  That's it.  That's all. 
Otherwise, as a game, it is much better than DAO.  DA2 is DAO with all
the boring parts taken out.  If there had been no negative word of
mouth, the game would be bigger than DAO.  Once the formula is tweaked a
bit, DA3 will be even better.

The DAO supporters pretend that
there were world shattering flaw in the game, but there wasn't.  There
were problems, but nothing any place near what they describe.  Instead,
it's all word of mouth that hurt the game.  That's all.  The flaws were
annoying, but not game killing.  That came from the jilted girlfriends.

:P:P

Have to disagree with you here. I'll grant you that negative word of mouth may have exacerbated the negative reaction, but it certainly isn't the sole reason for it, like you suggest. Things like the blatantly reused areas would have never gotten a pass, regardless of word of mouth; especially coming from Bioware, where the standard is exceptionally high.

I don't believe that DA2 is as bad as some make it out to be, but to say the only reason for the negativity surrounding it is "jilted girlfriends" is simply disingenuous.

Modifié par Erode_The_Soul, 09 août 2011 - 03:20 .

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Davasar wrote...

Innovation?  Sorry bro.  Everything done in this game was already done in previous games. 

In english, the word innovate means to change and improve.  The word invent means to make something new.

I could list more, but why?  The point is clear.

Yes, that you don't realize combining existing things into a new form counts as innovation.  :whistle:

Now, with all that....saying that DA2 will be better then DAO (which you guys did) through 'innovation'?  That's not honesty bro.  That's trying to bait and switch, and on some people you guys did just that, which is why they were mad as hell.  And rightly so.

I do not think that word means what you think it means.  /Fezzik.

[Davasar]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Night Prowler76 wrote...

The thing is Stanley, when you guys made all the changes to DA2, there was alot of of people on this forum giving you opinions on how watered down they would make the game, did you guys listen then? No, in fact we got brushed aside so you guys could make the game more appealing to a wider audience (which judging by sales, this didnt happen).

You're right... this time. But the community isn't always right, and there are so many people making so many contradictory "predictions," suggestions and demands that, no matter how the game turns out, there will be a portion of the audience who say "see? I told you so." A thousand people making a thousand predictions isn't "making good predictions," it's "guessing." And that's fine. Pre-release, it's all you can do is guess about how the game is going to turn out.

Stanley.

It's basic marketing 101. 

You do not purposefully alienate you core audience.  You guys gave us the finger.  We reacted by not buying the game.

These aren't predictions, this has happened in the market over and over...and over...and over...and over.... and over.......Again.

You keep your core audience AND try to get new players into the game.  It's simple, add more to that which was successful and improve that which was not.

You do not sacrifice the core for the sake of an audience that doesn't like the kind of product your are making in the first place.

We were right, because doing what you guys did was a path to failure.  You guys didn't listen, followed it anyway, and failed.

Congratulations.

You alienated your core, and didn't get the audience who do not like these games anyway.

My advice is, keep ignoring the core.  Watch the franchise die.  That's the EA way, so why change?

[Davasar]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...


Yes, that you don't realize combining existing things into a new form counts as innovation.  :whistle:

Tell that to Vanilla Ice when he boosted 'Under Pressure" from Queen and David Bowie and tried to pass it off as being innovative.

Oh yeah...he lost that case ...

Modifié par Davasar, 09 août 2011 - 03:31 .

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Erode_The_Soul wrote...

Have to disagree with you here. I'll grant you that negative word of mouth may have exacerbated the negative reaction, but it certainly isn't the sole reason for it, like you suggest. Things like the blatantly reused areas would have never gotten a pass, regardless of word of mouth; especially coming from Bioware, where the standard is exceptionally high.

I don't believe that DA2 is as bad as some make it out to be, but to say the only reason for the negativity surrounding it is "jilted girlfriends" is simply disingenuous.

The game certainly has problems.  The lack of a central method to gear my party is... just..  insane.  But that and the area reuse are really just blips in an otherwise great game.  The complaints about the story and the unhappyness over lack of races would be nothing out of the ordinary for what KOTOR's release experienced.  I do believe that DA2 got a bad rep solely through word of mouth from people who hated that it wasn't DAO2.  It is no where near as bad as it is made out to be.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Davasar wrote...

Tell that to Vanilla Ice when he boosted 'Under Pressure" from Queen and David Bowie and tried to pass it off as being innovative.
Oh yeah...he lost that case for not being original...

Poor argument.  He didn't lose that case for not being original.  He lost that case for not paying to license the sample.

We both know your original point was weak and this was a bad example on your part.  Don't feel too bad.

[Davasar]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Davasar wrote...

Tell that to Vanilla Ice when he boosted 'Under Pressure" from Queen and David Bowie and tried to pass it off as being innovative.
Oh yeah...he lost that case for not being original...

Poor argument.  He didn't lose that case for not being original.  He lost that case for not paying to license the sample.

We both know your original point was weak and this was a bad example on your part.  Don't feel too bad.

He tried to claim it was an original composition.  You're wrong.

Besides that, DA2 was a bad game.  Live in denial all you want, it won't change the facts.

Reused areas:  Bad
Teleporting/parchuting enemies:  Bad
Shorter game that is more expensive:  Bad
Less choice:  Bad.

Keep the blinders on though, we need people like you with unrealistic optimism

Modifié par Davasar, 09 août 2011 - 03:36 .

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Davasar wrote...

Stanley.

It's basic marketing 101. 

You do not purposefully alienate you core audience.  You guys gave us the finger.  We reacted by not buying the game.

[snip]

You do not sacrifice the core for the sake of an audience that doesn't like the kind of product your are making in the first place.

[snip]

You alienated your core, and didn't get the audience who do not like these games anyway.

My advice is, keep ignoring the core.  Watch the franchise die.  That's the EA way, so why change?

This is exactly what I mean by fans behaving like jilted girlfriends.

BioWare:  "Hey, lets see if more people want to play our game!"
Fans:  "Aren't we enough for you?  How dare you look at other players!  I hate you forever and ever now!"
Fans:  *posts crap on metacritic*
Fans:  *bad mouths to everyone who will listen*

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Davasar wrote...

He tried to claim it was an original composition.  You're wrong.

That's called a legal defense. 

[Davasar]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Davasar wrote...

He tried to claim it was an original composition.  You're wrong.

That's called a legal defense. 

And he lost.

[Davasar]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Davasar wrote...

Stanley.

It's basic marketing 101. 

You do not purposefully alienate you core audience.  You guys gave us the finger.  We reacted by not buying the game.

[snip]

You do not sacrifice the core for the sake of an audience that doesn't like the kind of product your are making in the first place.

[snip]

You alienated your core, and didn't get the audience who do not like these games anyway.

My advice is, keep ignoring the core.  Watch the franchise die.  That's the EA way, so why change?

This is exactly what I mean by fans behaving like jilted girlfriends.

BioWare:  "Hey, lets see if more people want to play our game!"
Fans:  "Aren't we enough for you?  How dare you look at other players!  I hate you forever and ever now!"
Fans:  *posts crap on metacritic*
Fans:  *bad mouths to everyone who will listen*

False Dilemma.

Keep your core, expand as well.

Didn't you read?  Ah yes, selective editting for the lose.

Modifié par Davasar, 09 août 2011 - 03:38 .

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Davasar wrote...

And he lost.

Already addressed.

[The Twilight God]

I think the issue boils down to this idea that DA2 was intended to "expand the audience".  It doesn't work that way.
 
You either please the so-called "RPG elitists", improve on DA:O and keep an already established long time loyal fanbase.

OR

You toss the baby out with the bath water, make a completely different type of game for a completely different kind of audience. And lose the elitists.

Bioware is not letting new people into the club. They are kicking the current members out. That's all fine and dandy, but they insist on demeaning those old members for being pissed about being kicked out. "We're not kicking you out Superman, we're just making everything out of krytonite from here on out. But you're welcome to stay." Give me a break.

It's not like Bioware is going to trick the CoD crowd into playing DA2 and then switch back to DA:O style game and expect to keep these supposed CoD fans who may have liked DA2, but not Origins. You CAN NOT please everyone. They're not "widening their audeince", they are aiming to replace the old audience with a whole new audience.





And we have Bioware staff on here talking about how they won't allow people to bash CoD player intelligence. Yet their idea to attract them is to make everything nice a simple for them? Come again? A person can't enjoy CoD AND DA:O? It's too daunting for their little pea brains? That is so hypocritical. I know plenty of people who enjoy games like Skyrim and Battlefield 3.

[Davasar]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Davasar wrote...

And he lost.

Already addressed.

Right.

He lost.

Therefore, not innovative.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Davasar wrote...

False Dilemma.

Keep your core, expand as well.

Didn't you read?  Ah yes, selective editting for the lose.

I agree, it was a false dilemma created by the jilted girlfriends.  DA2 was a perfectly fine game. 

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Davasar wrote...

Right.

He lost.

Therefore, not innovative.

You're so lost.  :lol: 

/thread

Modifié par RinpocheSchnozberry, 09 août 2011 - 03:42 .

[Davasar]

Davasar wrote...

Besides that, DA2 was a bad game.  Live in denial all you want, it won't change the facts.

Reused areas:  Bad
Teleporting/parchuting enemies:  Bad
Shorter game that is more expensive:  Bad
Less choice:  Bad.

Keep the blinders on though, we need people like you with unrealistic optimism

Here ya go