143 réponses à ce sujet

[James2912]

 Here is excerpt:

"Yet he couldn't deny these were interesting times. For the pastdecade, the three species seated on the Council, salarians, turians, andasari, had fought to keep humanity at bay, slamming door after door inits face. Now those doors had been blown off their hinges. The Citadelforces had been decimated by the geth, leaving the Alliance fleetunchallenged as the galaxy's single most dominant power.."

Remember the books try to take all choices and all shepards into account.

[Praetor Knight]

Now we just need better weapons and defenses on those ships.

[armass]

Well my opinion is it's BS. There's no way alliance had the most powerful fleet, even if Citadel forces were decimated. I think they just somehow shoehorned this into the book tough logically and statistically it makes absolutely no sense.There's no way turians for example had most of their ships around Citadel at that time, if they did, why the hell would we need their help anyway in ME3, what would they have left? Most of the council races fleet's are still intact, even if Citadel Forces were decimated. If not, what good are they in the reaper war, especially since alliance got it's butt kicked by the reapers, how are some scraps of leftover alien fleets going to destroy the reapers when the "almighty" alliance fleet is already in tatters.

One dev even said this was wrong in ME wikia, Chris L'Etoile i believe it was. MY best guess:  Drew just didn't look at his notes.

Modifié par armass, 08 août 2011 - 04:48 .

[KingNothing125]

Well just reading that little excerpt of yours, it sounds like someone's soliloquy... someone who doesn't like the council very much... like Udina or the Illusive Man.

"the three species seated on the Council, salarians, turians, and asari, had fought to keep humanity at bay, slamming door after door in its face."

Key passage. That has a pretty anti-Council slant to it. It sounds like opinion as opposed to fact. So I would take the conclusion that humanity is unrivaled post-Geth attack with a grain of salt.

I especially doubt it if you had the Alliance save the Destiny Ascension.

[marshalleck]

armass wrote...

Well my opinion is it's BS. There's no way alliance had the most powerful fleet, even if citadel forces were decimated. I think they just somehow shoehorned this into the book tough logically and statistically it makes absolutely no sense.

Your opinion is wrong. Books > you

[marshalleck]

KingNothing125 wrote...

I especially doubt it if you had the Alliance save the Destiny Ascension.

Name one naval campaign where the Destiny Ascension contributed significantly to Citadel victory.

[packardbell]

armass wrote...

Well my opinion is it's BS. There's no way alliance had the most powerful fleet, even if citadel forces were decimated. I think they just somehow shoehorned this into the book tough logically and statistically it makes absolutely no sense.

Doesn't make much sense to me either. I'm sure each species makes a small contribution to the CDF (Citadel Defence Fleet) however the majority oftheir fleets are probably guarding their home systems.. and because each species have been around longer when it comes to being in space, it doesn't make much sense for us to have the biggest fleet.

[Praetor Knight]

packardbell wrote...

armass wrote...

Well my opinion is it's BS. There's no way alliance had the most powerful fleet, even if citadel forces were decimated. I think they just somehow shoehorned this into the book tough logically and statistically it makes absolutely no sense.

Doesn't make much sense to me either. I'm sure each species makes a small contribution to the CDF (Citadel Defence Fleet) however the majority oftheir fleets are probably guarding their home systems.. and because each species have been around longer when it comes to being in space, it doesn't make much sense for us to have the biggest fleet.

The question I have, is how is that power setup and projected? What do they value?

We know that there are limits on dreadnoughts and have a sense of Naval Space Combat, and the possible tactics and strategies used by them, but what about other ship classes? Could the Alliance have more ships of the other classes than the other fleets?

And Carriers seem to be a wildcard that humanity introduced into the existing paradigm.

[Shad0wOGRE]

packardbell wrote...

armass wrote...

Well my opinion is it's BS. There's no way alliance had the most powerful fleet, even if citadel forces were decimated. I think they just somehow shoehorned this into the book tough logically and statistically it makes absolutely no sense.

Doesn't make much sense to me either. I'm sure each species makes a small contribution to the CDF (Citadel Defence Fleet) however the majority oftheir fleets are probably guarding their home systems.. and because each species have been around longer when it comes to being in space, it doesn't make much sense for us to have the biggest fleet.

The British Empire has been around a lot longer than the U.S.A., one guess who has the bigger fleet.

[KingNothing125]

marshalleck wrote...

Name one naval campaign where the Destiny Ascension contributed significantly to Citadel victory.

Um, my point is, the Alliance sacrified ships in the battle, and is therefore weaker because of it.

But since you brought it up, the Destiny Ascension has been in precisely one battle that I know of... which is a pretty small sample size from which to determine its battle capability. Straw-man argument.

[ThePwener]

It's not a stretch. The books tend to follow the renegade path so if you play Paragon, it has to be put in perspective. You have to understand that the Renegade path's ultimate goal is Human Dominance.

[packardbell]

CommanderNuetral wrote...

packardbell wrote...

armass wrote...

Well my opinion is it's BS. There's no way alliance had the most powerful fleet, even if citadel forces were decimated. I think they just somehow shoehorned this into the book tough logically and statistically it makes absolutely no sense.

Doesn't make much sense to me either. I'm sure each species makes a small contribution to the CDF (Citadel Defence Fleet) however the majority oftheir fleets are probably guarding their home systems.. and because each species have been around longer when it comes to being in space, it doesn't make much sense for us to have the biggest fleet.

The British Empire has been around a lot longer than the U.S.A., one guess who has the bigger fleet.

Well, you mean it was around before it's collapse in 50s - but that was due to massive debt from WW2 and because the majority of the colonies gained indepdence (India, parts of Africa, parts of Asia) that meant having a huge navy would be very costly. Now let's go back to ME.. each race controls a few systems and to sufficiently protect said colonies you'd need constant patrols.. now then back to Council Space.. it was said a lot of the fleet was guarding the Mass Relays, not one which the majority of the heretic fleet (and Sovereign went through) so it's possible they went unscatched and by thetime they got back to the Citadle the battle was over.

[packardbell]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

packardbell wrote...

armass wrote...

Well my opinion is it's BS. There's no way alliance had the most powerful fleet, even if citadel forces were decimated. I think they just somehow shoehorned this into the book tough logically and statistically it makes absolutely no sense.

Doesn't make much sense to me either. I'm sure each species makes a small contribution to the CDF (Citadel Defence Fleet) however the majority oftheir fleets are probably guarding their home systems.. and because each species have been around longer when it comes to being in space, it doesn't make much sense for us to have the biggest fleet.

The question I have, is how is that power setup and projected? What do they value?

We know that there are limits on dreadnoughts and have a sense of Naval Space Combat, and the possible tactics and strategies used by them, but what about other ship classes? Could the Alliance have more ships of the other classes than the other fleets?

And Carriers seem to be a wildcard that humanity introduced into the existing paradigm.

Good point. I remember in Acension that the entire Acturus fleet was based there, but then it was said it would look pretty dismal when patrolling the galaxy.. or at least Alliance controlled systems.

[ThePwener]

KingNothing125 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Name one naval campaign where the Destiny Ascension contributed significantly to Citadel victory.

Um, my point is, the Alliance sacrified ships in the battle, and is therefore weaker because of it.

But since you brought it up, the Destiny Ascension has been in precisely one battle that I know of... which is a pretty small sample size from which to determine its battle capability. Straw-man argument.

The point he's making is that the Destiny Ascension is/was a low value target to save. It beraly could defend itself. It was, frankly, a waste of a ship. It was a just a glorified transport ship.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Now we just need better weapons and defenses on those ships.

Meh, we already have the most advanced ship with the SR-2. A mere fleet of those would work miracles in-universe.

Of course, when the Reapers arrive it's a whole 'nother story.

[Quole]

Wasnt the Ascension described as being able to destroy any ship in the alliance fleet in ME1 (or something along those lines)? Granted Ashley may have been exaggerating, but that still seems to signify that it is most likely very useful in combat.

Modifié par Quole, 08 août 2011 - 04:07 .

[armass]

Quole wrote...

Wasnt the Ascension described as being able to destroy any ship in the alliance fleet in ME1 (or something along those lines)? Granted Ashley may have been exaggerating, but that still seems to signify that it is most likely very useful in combat.

Yes it is, and woe to those who didn't save it for the battle against reapers. It can be one of the most powerful ally ships.

[KingNothing125]

ThePwener wrote...

The point he's making is that the Destiny Ascension is/was a low value target to save. It beraly could defend itself. It was, frankly, a waste of a ship. It was a just a glorified transport ship.

That's not a very good point to make. First of all, it is impossible to know how well it defended itself. All we know is that it was badly damaged (and destroyed if you don't save it). How many Geth ships did it destroy first? It could have destroyed dozens, we don't know.

Secondly, by all accounts from the first game, the Destiny Ascension is extraordinarily powerful. It is not a "glorified transport ship". The fact that it was nearly destroyed is not indicative of its power or its defensive capabilities. Battleships are extremely powerful boats, but are vulnerable to air attacks. The entire American Pacific Fleet was decimated during the Pearl Harbor attack, that does not mean the Pacific Fleet was barely capable of defending itself.

Modifié par KingNothing125, 08 août 2011 - 04:16 .

[Quole]

armass wrote...

Quole wrote...

Wasnt the Ascension described as being able to destroy any ship in the alliance fleet in ME1 (or something along those lines)? Granted Ashley may have been exaggerating, but that still seems to signify that it is most likely very useful in combat.

Yes it is, and woe to those who didn't save it for the battle against reapers. It can be one of the most powerful ally ships.

I was directing that towards the people that said the Ascension was useless in combat.

[Praetor Knight]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Now we just need better weapons and defenses on those ships.

Meh, we already have the most advanced ship with the SR-2. A mere fleet of those would work miracles in-universe.

Of course, when the Reapers arrive it's a whole 'nother story.

Exactly.

I was thinking about how the SR2's upgrades are not standard issue for the Alliance's ships from what we know so far; so we need to outfit the ships with at least Thanix Cannons, the cyclonic barriers and the Silaris Armor.

I'd also like to see the Javelin system, and a Cruise Missile equivalent to be used in ME3.

[essarr71]

ThePwener wrote...

KingNothing125 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Name one naval campaign where the Destiny Ascension contributed significantly to Citadel victory.

Um, my point is, the Alliance sacrified ships in the battle, and is therefore weaker because of it.

But since you brought it up, the Destiny Ascension has been in precisely one battle that I know of... which is a pretty small sample size from which to determine its battle capability. Straw-man argument.

The point he's making is that the Destiny Ascension is/was a low value target to save. It beraly could defend itself. It was, frankly, a waste of a ship. It was a just a glorified transport ship.

Actually he brings up some evidence that might contradict his and the OPs except:

It's assumed that the DE is the most powerful and secure ship in the Citadel (why else would they move the Council to it, especially, if it wasn't capable),  The fact that it's almost destroyed reinforces the fact that the Citadel was relatively undefended - with the bulk of the Citadel's military elsewhere. 

So I ask where is the evidence that it isn't the most powerful ship, outside of saying a complete surprise attack by countless Geth ships and a Reaper put it at risk?  Or one better, name any other vessel that would have been able to handle it.

Regardless, the OPs except sounds more like conjecture or a poetic license than anything else.  The Alliance might be the force IN the citadel, but there isn't anything to say they're the backbone of the Citadel Fleet, regardless of your choices in ME1.

Modifié par essarr71, 08 août 2011 - 04:17 .

[ThePwener]

Here's your evidence.

http://t3.gstatic.co...GBpR1Y3EwVr6Vzi

Still think it's useful Quole? It just stood there taking a barrage of fire. Great tactic.

Modifié par ThePwener, 08 août 2011 - 04:18 .

[StarcloudSWG]

Turians had, and still have, the most powerful fleet. The passage from the book is mostly wishful thinking.

[didymos1120]

ThePwener wrote...

The point he's making is that the Destiny Ascension is/was a low value target to save. It beraly could defend itself. It was, frankly, a waste of a ship. It was a just a glorified transport ship.

It:

a. was heavily outnumbered at very close range
b. caught while trying to evac the Council

and:

c. its screen of other vessels was pretty much insta-curb-stomped
d. it still held up under a hell of a lot of fire for quite awhile despite all that

So, you have no basis to judge how effective it actually is because it never even tried to stand and fight in the first place (which would have been a bad move in that situation).

Modifié par didymos1120, 08 août 2011 - 04:19 .

[GnusmasTHX]

Doesn't make much sense.

Not all of the individual races' fleets were at the Citadel, they each contributed only a fraction of their fleets to Citadel security, EXACTLY what the SA did when they arrived as reinforcements.

Even the SA got owned along with the current Citadel forces, so why would the Council races be any worse off then the SA? In fact, they should be better off considering they had a larger force in total to begin with, and then sent over a fraction for Citadel security. None of the races went all-in in the battle at the Citadel, if they did, there would've been more than two dreadnoughts including Sovereign itself.

The only possible explanation that has somehow been neglected since ME1 is that the fleets of the Council races were decimated by geth forces as the geth jumped from Relay to Relay toward the Citadel. That, however, is a huge omission. And is illogical and thus highly unlikely.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 08 août 2011 - 04:22 .