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Was just reading Ascension and apparently humanity has the most powerful fleet...


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#51
Nashiktal

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ThePwener wrote...

Keatons wrote...

A bit off topic, but the Thanix cannon is a Turian weapon, and I doubt that Turians other than Garrus would be willing to share it with humans other than Shepard, Cyclonic barriers have some signicant risks attached to them if I recall correctly, and armoring anything larger than a frigate or fighter in Silaris Armor is, I believe according to the codex, 'prohibitively expensive'. Not to mention that the SR2 is a Cerberus, not Alliance vessel so the odds that they're sharing design details is slim to none. Not saying it wouldn't be awesome, just that it's not feasible for various reasons.


Yeah well all life is running the risk of being exterminated so I don't care who I have to kill or stomp to get what I want to stop the Reapers.


Problem at this point is time. Even if you get the Turians to share their research before the reapers invade, you have to retrofit all of your ships to use them. This takes time, something thats in short supply once the reapers invade. Same with all the other upgrades.

Also somehow I doubt corporations would offer anything for free even with reapers attacking. :|

#52
SandTrout

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People refer to Humanity having the 'most powerful fleet' and the obvious connotation is that it is referring to the (gross number x average power) of ships at their disposal. This is not necessarily true. Density plays a huge part in how powerful a nation's military is. Density for force is a principal of Sun Tzu's Art of War and was also practiced by Napoleon during his hay-day.

A nation with a huge amount of territory to cover and 20 divisions of soldier might not be capable of responding properly to a relatively small nation that has only 10 divisions. Because the smaller nation is able to place a larger percentage on a single point quicker than the larger nation, the functional military power of the smaller nation could become superior to that of the larger one.

This analogy applies well to Humanity's position post-ME1. The elder Council Species have numerically superior fleets, but those fleets are diluted by the amount of systems that they must protect. Humanity, on the other hand, has only a couple dozen systems, allowing us significant abilities to dedicate larger portions of our fleet to the projection of power while the Council species must keep their fleets garrisoned near critical worlds.

At least some of our military production was limited by treaties that we were subject to by virtue of not being a council species, as well. Gaining our Council seat would both free us from those production ceilings and provide the Systems Alliance a justification for increased spending toward expanding our fleet in order to fill the gaps left by the destruction of the Citadel fleet.

Humanity can have 'the most powerful fleet' without necessarily having the most ships. We simply need to be able to have the most available ships.

#53
ThePwener

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Nashiktal wrote...

Also somehow I doubt corporations would offer anything for free even with reapers attacking. :|


Goes to show how much we are asking/deserve to be annihilated. Darn my nihilistic ideals.

Modifié par ThePwener, 08 août 2011 - 06:29 .


#54
didymos1120

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Apparently, that was an error that slipped into Ascension. Chris L'Etoile did indeed confirm that on the wiki:

I don't remember precisely what's said in Ascension, but this [idea of humanity being militarily supreme post-Saren] is not true. The Fifth Fleet was the largest concentration of military force near the Citadel. The combined fleets of the asari, turians, and salarians still outnumber the Alliance's forces by something like 11 to 1 (based solely on the dreadnought ratio established by the Treaty of Farixen).


I think what was probably supposed to have been there instead was something to the effect that humanity had more ships to spare (or was more willing to just reassign some from other posts anyway) such that it made up the bulk of the Citadel Fleet, and only the Citadel Fleet, after the events of ME1. I.e., the forces of other races' were tied up guarding their worlds and territories and it'd take them a bit to shuffle things around and/or build replacement vessels and staff them, so humanity jumped on the opportunity to take up the slack. But if the forces guarding the other races territories were taken into account, we'd still be way the hell outnumbered.

Modifié par didymos1120, 08 août 2011 - 06:35 .


#55
Praetor Knight

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ThePwener wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

*snip*


Dude, only the DA needed 10,000 crewmembers. Every dreadnaught needing 10,000 men is insane! Humans have them too, and there is no way we could fill them.

They have at least eight, so ~80,000?



Nashiktal wrote...

When your entire population has military training, and you have an entire galactic empire with colonies that have similar population to your homeworld... I don't think you would worry about crew sizes mate.

In any case it doesn't shake how silly it is that the Turians entire military is busted after one attack on the citadel, especially when its mostly c-sec forces guarding the thing. You don't maintain an intergalacic empire with only a few hundred ships.


Right so lets say that there are more Turians than humans. And that they also have a very large Reserve force too.

The question is what type of training does their military prefer? Are those Turians mostly infantry or Navy personnel? That seems to matter for how large their fleet could depending on the numbers.

And what ship types do Turians prefer?

Since we know that they make up the largest part of Citadel forces, how are the Turian ships organized? Where does Citadel control end and Hierarchy control start for their forces?

#56
ThePwener

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Praetor Shepard wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

*snip*


Dude, only the DA needed 10,000 crewmembers. Every dreadnaught needing 10,000 men is insane! Humans have them too, and there is no way we could fill them.


They have at least eight, so ~80,000?

Again, only the DA had a crew of 10,000.

Modifié par ThePwener, 08 août 2011 - 06:37 .


#57
Praetor Knight

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Keatons wrote...

A bit off topic, but the Thanix cannon is a Turian weapon, and I doubt that Turians other than Garrus would be willing to share it with humans other than Shepard, Cyclonic barriers have some signicant risks attached to them if I recall correctly, and armoring anything larger than a frigate or fighter in Silaris Armor is, I believe according to the codex, 'prohibitively expensive'. Not to mention that the SR2 is a Cerberus, not Alliance vessel so the odds that they're sharing design details is slim to none. Not saying it wouldn't be awesome, just that it's not feasible for various reasons.


I agree, actually.



ThePwener wrote...

Again, only the DA had a crew of 10,000.


My math-fu is weak Pwener-son, I need to use Excel! ^_^

I guess I should have given a range like 7,000 - 10,000 instead =]

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 08 août 2011 - 06:44 .


#58
Keatons

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ThePwener wrote...

Keatons wrote...

A bit off topic, but the Thanix cannon is a Turian weapon, and I doubt that Turians other than Garrus would be willing to share it with humans other than Shepard, Cyclonic barriers have some signicant risks attached to them if I recall correctly, and armoring anything larger than a frigate or fighter in Silaris Armor is, I believe according to the codex, 'prohibitively expensive'. Not to mention that the SR2 is a Cerberus, not Alliance vessel so the odds that they're sharing design details is slim to none. Not saying it wouldn't be awesome, just that it's not feasible for various reasons.


Yeah well all life is running the risk of being exterminated so I don't care who I have to kill or stomp to get what I want to stop the Reapers.


Not saying Shepard won't have nice things to kill Reapers with or survive reaper attacks with, just that the Alliance fleet at large won't. Slight discrepency. Unless that's what you meant.

#59
ThePwener

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Not even 7,000. Try 500 to 800. Even then I think it's going too far.

Modifié par ThePwener, 08 août 2011 - 06:47 .


#60
SandTrout

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ThePwener wrote...

Not even 7,000. Try 500 to 800. Even then I think it's going too far.

I agree with this. The DA requiring 10k crew to operate is patently insane to me as a sailor. I've gone over the details in another thread, but requiring anything beyond 1000 crew is really pushing believability, IMO.

#61
ThePwener

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[quote]Keatons wrote...

Yeah well all life is running the risk of being exterminated so I don't care who I have to kill or stomp to get what I want to stop the Reapers.[/quote]

Not saying Shepard won't have nice things to kill Reapers with or survive reaper attacks with, just that the Alliance fleet at large won't. Slight discrepency. Unless that's what you meant.
[/quote]

Oh no, the Alliance is toast actually. By the time ME3 opens, Shepard is in trial at the same time that Arcturus is getting obliterated. No way is Humanity rebuilding without either (1) Alien help or (2) The Collector Base, and by extension cerberus if BW decided to please us Cerberus fans.

#62
ThePwener

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SandTrout wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

Not even 7,000. Try 500 to 800. Even then I think it's going too far.

I agree with this. The DA requiring 10k crew to operate is patently insane to me as a sailor. I've gone over the details in another thread, but requiring anything beyond 1000 crew is really pushing believability, IMO.


I know right! How many buttons does that ship have!/1/1?!??

#63
Praetor Knight

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ThePwener wrote...

Not even 7,000. Try 500 to 800. Even then I think it's going too far.

I guess the questions is, how big are these darn ships? And what are their crew requirements?

Nimitz class carriers need 3,200 each and then can support 2,480 for the air wing.

#64
didymos1120

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Oh, BTW, there's a distinction to be made:

The Citadel Fleet guards the Citadel. Then there are the Council Fleets, but there's not much info on what exactly they are or what they do. I think that might just be what they call the asari, turian, and salarian forces, but they may be directly under Council control. Anyway, at least some of them were assigned to the Citadel at the end ME1, and they were also the ones watching the relays toward the end of ME1. (info also comes from L'Etoile)

#65
ThePwener

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Praetor Shepard wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

Not even 7,000. Try 500 to 800. Even then I think it's going too far.

I guess the questions is, how big are these darn ships? And what are their crew requirements?

Nimitz class carriers need 3,200 each and then can support 2,480 for the air wing.


They are pretty big though. Here's some comparison material.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

#66
Swimming Ferret

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I just really want to see the Destiny Ascensions shoot a Reaper. Despite all the yahoo going on and people ranting, the firing power of that ship must be impressive.

#67
KingNothing125

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If you saved it, the Destiny Ascension will probably get the opportunity to shoot a Reaper.

I agree, it would be pretty kick ass to see.

#68
marshalleck

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Swimming Ferret wrote...

I just really want to see the Destiny Ascensions shoot a Reaper. Despite all the yahoo going on and people ranting, the firing power of that ship must be impressive.

Unlikely to faze a Reaper while it's shields are up. 

The Destiny Ascension is basically outdated Cold War style thinking. Just build your **** bigger than the next guy's. Take all the guns he added, and double them! Etc. etc. Yes, the Destiny Ascension is regarded as the most powerful warship around, but when has it ever actually been fielded in battle? Never, that's when. It's mostly symbolic. All it does is float around looking cool--and if you save it, what do the asari do with it? They send it on a 20-colony victory cruise. Just wagging their **** around. 

It will be useless in a stand-up fight with Reapers, as will all other dreadnoughts. Reapers have comparable if not greater firepower and mobility that is simply unheard of. They won't sit in one place and allow dreadnoughts to hammer away at them. 

The Destiny Ascension is impractical. It's a trophy, little more.

#69
Guest_Saphra Deden_*

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SandTrout wrote...

A nation with a huge amount of territory to cover and 20 divisions of soldier might not be capable of responding properly to a relatively small nation that has only 10 divisions. Because the smaller nation is able to place a larger percentage on a single point quicker than the larger nation, the functional military power of the smaller nation could become superior to that of the larger one.

This analogy applies well to Humanity's position post-ME1. The elder Council Species have numerically superior fleets, but those fleets are diluted by the amount of systems that they must protect. Humanity, on the other hand, has only a couple dozen systems, allowing us significant abilities to dedicate larger portions of our fleet to the projection of power while the Council species must keep their fleets garrisoned near critical worlds.


This is a point I've brought up in many past iterations of this debate.

The Council fleets may be large, but their doctrine limits how far they can move. Their forces are tied up in garrisons where-as humanity deliberately avoids doing this by posting only very small forces to guard and the bulk remaining at critical junctions where they can respond immediately. This means that humanity's forces can strike much more quickly and much further than anyone else's. Our military is way more efficient.

Another thing to remember about the turians is that their military isn't just their fleet. It is their army too which would be very large. Humanity avoids putting much emphasis on a ground army since it prefers decisve fleet action. So again, our military, despite being smaller, can do its job as well as the turian equivalent because it is more efficient in its design and doctrine.



Regarding the Destiny Ascesion... it may be a powerful ship, but the question remains as to whether or not the Council is willing to actually put it into combat. At the Battle of the Citadel it was just a glorified escape pod. It never had any intention of participating in the battle. That is what made it useless.

Considering that the loss of the Destiny Ascension winds up prompting the asari to pull out of their military agreements completely one wonders if they'd even be willing to risk the ship in a real fight. After all, in an actual battle the DA might be destroyed. Would the outcome be any different this time or would the asari just give up their military anyway? The DA is also said to possess as much firepower as the rest of the asari fleet combined so losing it is like losing half of their forces.

The Destiny Ascension is perhaps too valuable for its owners to want to put in harms way. That makes it useless.



Regarding the OP's excerpt from Ascension. I agree with others who say it is not very realistic or believable. I feel the same way about humanity's rise in general. However we can't throw something out of canon just be we don't like it. It is true, like it or not. The best move then is to try and figure out what the circumstances would need to be for it to make sense.

Towards that end I would wager that the Council fleets guarding the Citadel and other relays were larger than they appeared. They'd have also been mostly turian seeing as the turians made up the majority share of Council forces. Many of these fleets in their entirety may have been wiped out before Sovereign and his geth reached the Citadel. After all, no warning came but the enemy got through anyway.

So off-screen the Council's losses may have been very severe. They  might not have lost very many or any dreadnoughts (other than the DA), but without lots of cruisers and frigates to back them up those dreadnoughts aren't very useful. This may have left the turian military with teeth... but no jaw to give them any biting power.

#70
RocketManSR2

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SandTrout wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

Not even 7,000. Try 500 to 800. Even then I think it's going too far.

I agree with this. The DA requiring 10k crew to operate is patently insane to me as a sailor. I've gone over the details in another thread, but requiring anything beyond 1000 crew is really pushing believability, IMO.


As opposed to what? A fleet of AI dreadnoughts coming to wipe us all out? Or throwing someone across the room with a thought?

#71
RocketManSR2

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It really doesn't matter who has the biggest fleet. All of them are useless against the Reapers.

#72
Guest_Saphra Deden_*

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ThePwener wrote...

They are pretty big though. Here's some comparison materia.

*Pictures of geth cruisers*


I don't know how accurate that is. It seems geth ships, be they frigates, cruisers, or dreadnoughts, may all use the exacty same design just scaled up.

The ships you see in some of the ground missions in ME1 certainly aren't any bigger than the Normandy. Yet the crashed geth ship in Overlord is humungous, perhaps either a cruiser or even a dreadnought.

#73
ThePwener

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RocketManSR2 wrote...

As opposed to what? A fleet of AI dreadnoughts coming to wipe us all out? Or throwing someone across the room with a thought?


You have no argument. Get out before you're trown across the room.

#74
ThePwener

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Saphra Deden wrote...

I don't know how accurate that is. It seems geth ships, be they frigates, cruisers, or dreadnoughts, may all use the exacty same design just scaled up.

The ships you see in some of the ground missions in ME1 certainly aren't any bigger than the Normandy. Yet the crashed geth ship in Overlord is humungous, perhaps either a cruiser or even a dreadnought.


Yes, IN ME2, where the comparisons with the Geth ships I made are from ME1.

#75
didymos1120

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SandTrout wrote...

I agree with this. The DA requiring 10k crew to operate is patently insane to me as a sailor. I've gone over the details in another thread, but requiring anything beyond 1000 crew is really pushing believability, IMO.


It's very likely the DA carries a complement of fighters, so you need all the pilots, mechanics, and whatnot for those.  Then there's probably the asari equivalent of marines serving on it as well.  That'll push the numbers up a fair amount.