143 réponses à ce sujet

[KingNothing125]

The Geth dropships in ME1 and Haestrom/Firewalker in ME2 are just that... dropships. The Geth cruisers at the battle of the Citadel were more like the one hanging off the building on Feros, and the crashed ship in Overlord.

[ThePwener]

I think all the Geth ships in ME1 were the same size.

[didymos1120]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Regarding the OP's excerpt from Ascension. I agree with others who say it is not very realistic or believable. I feel the same way about humanity's rise in general. However we can't throw something out of canon just be we don't like it. It is true, like it or not.

I'll just repost these:

didymos1120 wrote...

Apparently, that was an error that slipped into Ascension. Chris L'Etoile did indeed confirm that on the wiki:

I don't remember precisely what's said in Ascension, but this [idea of humanity being militarily supreme post-Saren] is not true. The Fifth Fleet was the largest concentration of military force near the Citadel. The combined fleets of the asari, turians, and salarians still outnumber the Alliance's forces by something like 11 to 1 (based solely on the dreadnought ratio established by the Treaty of Farixen).

I think what was probably supposed to have been there instead was something to the effect that humanity had more ships to spare (or was more willing to just reassign some from other posts anyway) such that it made up the bulk of the Citadel Fleet, and only the Citadel Fleet, after the events of ME1. I.e., the forces of other races' were tied up guarding their worlds and territories and it'd take them a bit to shuffle things around and/or build replacement vessels and staff them, so humanity jumped on the opportunity to take up the slack. But if the forces guarding the other races territories were taken into account, we'd still be way the hell outnumbered.

didymos1120 wrote...

Oh, BTW, there's a distinction to be made:

The Citadel Fleet guards the Citadel. Then there are the Council Fleets, but there's not much info on what exactly they are or what they do. I think that might just be what they call the asari, turian, and salarian forces, but they may be directly under Council control. Anyway, at least some of them were assigned to the Citadel at the end ME1, and they were also the ones watching the relays toward the end of ME1. (info also comes from L'Etoile)

Just to add a further note: he was still at Bioware when he provided this info.

ETA:  Also, here's his edit summary to the Alliance Navy page for that information about human military strength: "Ascension may include uncorrected misinformation"

Modifié par didymos1120, 08 août 2011 - 07:56 .

[marshalleck]

Well except that Chris L'Etoile quit Bioware and no longer speaks with any canonical authority, as he'll readily admit.

It seems the weighting is along the lines of games > books/comics > anything else. So I'd go along with whatever is said in the game, if it's mentioned.

Modifié par marshalleck, 08 août 2011 - 07:58 .

[didymos1120]

marshalleck wrote...

Well except that Chris L'Etoile quit Bioware and no longer speaks with any canonical authority, as he'll readily admit.

He did when he provided that info, as I noted at the end.  Check the dates.

[didymos1120]

marshalleck wrote...

It seems the weighting is along the lines of games > books/comics > anything else. So I'd go along with whatever is said in the game, if it's mentioned.

I'd go with:

direct dev/writer statements > games > books/comics > anything else.

Otherwise, you're saying that if a dev comes along and says "Oh, yeah, we screwed up X line in the game.  It was supposed to say Y" or whatever, it has the least precedence. That seems backwards to me.  It's their universe, so if they say "X is really Y", then Y it is.

[Weskerr]

James2912 wrote...

 Here is excerpt:

"Yet he couldn't deny these were interesting times. For the pastdecade, the three species seated on the Council, salarians, turians, andasari, had fought to keep humanity at bay, slamming door after door inits face. Now those doors had been blown off their hinges. The Citadelforces had been decimated by the geth, leaving the Alliance fleetunchallenged as the galaxy's single most dominant power.."

Remember the books try to take all choices and all shepards into account.

Who is the narrator? A character in the book or the all-knowing author? If the former then yes, it's quite possible that the statement is wrong. If the latter, then how can he be wrong about his own story in his own book?

[Reptillius]

RocketManSR2 wrote...

It really doesn't matter who has the biggest fleet. All of them are useless against the Reapers.

This is actually unproven...  Everybody tries to boil it down to a single reaper attacking the citadel which wasn't the case. Most of the citadel fleet was not actually attacking the Reaper. It was attacking the Geth sheeps supporting the reaper.

The DA even was not attacking the Reaper. It was fighting it's way away from the Citadel to try and leave and protect the council. Perhaps tactically not the most sound decision but they decided the lives of a few outweighed the many despite the DA's point being to protect the citadel.

Something else that is getting glossed over when the DA is called useless is that fact that it took heavy damage but lasted long enough that you can save it when it was taking attacks that were outright destroying other smaller ships around it and it was considered a primary target.

It's rather naive to think that Saren would not have either willingly or through cyberization would NOT have somehow tried to impress upon Saren that the council is dangerous and should be a primary target that is not allowed to escape.  And in fact Most of the geth that warp in with Sovereign do not make a b-line to get into the citadel.  A few go in support of the Reaper ship but the reaper ship is the main one that makes that end run to take control of the citadel while the geth are more left to fight the battle for the most part.

There is actually an overlooked issue of Thematics in that end battle with the Reapers as well. Thematically it is rather important to see the Normandy take the final shot against the Reaper but we see this very shortly after it's called for the focus fire of all the ships that can onto Sovereign to take place. We cannot say just how innefective this focus fire attack was.  We saw what we needed to see for the sake of the story and the continueing trilogy in the setup of the way certain attacks happened in that battle.  i think most that could agree that in a game long billed as a trilogy that if the Normandy did not in fact take that decisive shot, whether at a coincidentally opportune moment or not, would have been a bigger let down and travesty to many of us game players than if the Reapers stomp the crap out of us in ME3.  It's hard to deny that many of us see the Normandy almost as an extension of Shepard and his center place in the games.

Since the DA and Soveriegn never actually engaged each other at all. We cannot say what kind of damage they would or would not have inflicted upon each other.

Modifié par Reptillius, 08 août 2011 - 08:10 .

[Darkelefantos1]

I believe that passage is unreasonable. There is no way the majority of the Turian fleet was at the Citadel. And if it had been, there probably would have been utter ownage. Think of it, the Treaty of Varixen creates a 5:3:1 ratio of dreadnoughts. The Turians have over 20 dreadnoughts in the first game. Biggest ship I saw looked like a cruiser, actually. And having 20 (maybe 25) dreadnoughts in front of the Citadel might even stop Sovereign for a while.

Seeing how 5th Fleet had no dreadnoughts either but destroyed Nazara...


EDIT: Yes, it's obvious from the cutscenes that, until 5th Fleet arrives, nobody attacks the Reaper. Instead, they focus on the Geth who try to destroy the Ascension (and the rest of the fleet).
Also, I know the conversations from ME1. The DA has almost as much firepower as the rest of the asari fleet combined, and it's main weapon could rip through any Alliance ship. That's what's said in ME1. 
I only ever saw it shooting 2 missiles.

Modifié par Darkelefantos1, 08 août 2011 - 08:15 .

[marshalleck]

Darkelefantos1 wrote...

I believe that passage is unreasonable. There is no way the majority of the Turian fleet was at the Citadel. And if it had been, there probably would have been utter ownage. Think of it, the Treaty of Varixen creates a 5:3:1 ratio of dreadnoughts. The Turians have over 20 dreadnoughts in the first game. Biggest ship I saw looked like a cruiser, actually. And having 20 (maybe 25) dreadnoughts in front of the Citadel might even stop Sovereign for a while.

Seeing how 5th Fleet had no dreadnoughts either but destroyed Nazara...

Funny thing about that footage of the Battle of the Citadel...the turian ships we see getting decimated were supposed to be dreadnoughts, but the cinematics team put in cruisers instead due to miscommunication. 

source is dev commentary on the old Bioware forums and no I'm not going to google it for you

[Inverness Moon]

KingNothing125 wrote...

Well just reading that little excerpt of yours, it sounds like someone's soliloquy... someone who doesn't like the council very much... like Udina or the Illusive Man.

"the three species seated on the Council, salarians, turians, and asari, had fought to keep humanity at bay, slamming door after door in its face."

Key passage. That has a pretty anti-Council slant to it. It sounds like opinion as opposed to fact. So I would take the conclusion that humanity is unrivaled post-Geth attack with a grain of salt.

I especially doubt it if you had the Alliance save the Destiny Ascension.

It looks to me that you don't have any real reason to think that is opinion, as opposed to fact, other than that it doesn't paint the Council with a pretty picture. That does not make it opinion.

[Inverness Moon]

marshalleck wrote...

Funny thing about that footage of the Battle of the Citadel...the turian ships we see getting decimated were supposed to be dreadnoughts, but the cinematics team put in cruisers instead due to miscommunication. 

source is dev commentary on the old Bioware forums and no I'm not going to google it for you

I thought I read that they also used dreadnought models for the Alliance ships that were supposed to be cruisers.

[marshalleck]

Inverness Moon wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Funny thing about that footage of the Battle of the Citadel...the turian ships we see getting decimated were supposed to be dreadnoughts, but the cinematics team put in cruisers instead due to miscommunication. 

source is dev commentary on the old Bioware forums and no I'm not going to google it for you

I thought I read that they also used dreadnought models for the Alliance ships that were supposed to be cruisers.

Perhaps. The one thing we can be sure of is BotC is unreliable for drawing any conclusions. 

Well, except that the Destiny Ascension is a big dumb idiot. And Reapers can simply fly through other ships blocking their path. That's obviously true.

Modifié par marshalleck, 08 août 2011 - 08:24 .

[Someone With Mass]

ThePwener wrote...
The point he's making is that the Destiny Ascension is/was a low value target to save. It beraly could defend itself. It was, frankly, a waste of a ship. It was a just a glorified transport ship.

It's a dreadnought. Dreadnoughts are like long range artillery ships. They won't do you much good if the enemies are right up in their grills.

Any Alliance dreadnought would've contributed just as much, or even less to the fight.

[didymos1120]

marshalleck wrote...

Funny thing about that footage of the Battle of the Citadel...the turian ships we see getting decimated were supposed to be dreadnoughts, but the cinematics team put in cruisers instead due to miscommunication. 

source is dev commentary on the old Bioware forums and no I'm not going to google it for you

Actually, it was the Alliance ships, and the ship classes were flipped:

Dirty Little Secrets time. The cruisers in the battle of the Citadel are using a model intended to be an Alliance dreadnought. The cinematics department didn't read the Codexes specifying that humanity only has six, and only uses them for long ranged combat. When we saw shots showing up to 15 "dreadnoughts" on screen at a time, we had to re-designate the model as a cruiser.

L'Etoile again, on the wiki.

[Zulu_DFA]

James2912 wrote...

I would just like to say that I have no agenda in posting this thread.

Let me bring in an agenda then!

It appears that contrary to what the devs have been always stating (that there is no "canon" Shepard), the default storyline of the neutral-to-renegade Sheploo is treated as such semi-canonical background for the tie-in material. (And the paragon choices in the main games are just a gimmick to let people access additional and/or more rainbow-bunny-kumbaya content.)

The books and the comics are tailored in a way to fit both choices most of the time, or, more precisely, to not explicitly contradict the paragon choices.

The most obvious evidence of this is, of course, Anderson as Udina's aide in the beginning of Retribution, which is still pending reconciliation with the "Anderson as Councilman in ME2" situation.

But there are other things like that. The Council in Ascension is said to have been "terribly restructured" or something like that, which is more in line with a Human-led Council. Based on Redemption it has been speculated that Liara is treated as the "canon LI" by the devs, and it's worth noting that it's a renegade choice on the dialogue wheel in Genesis (and - not sure here - in ME' "you have to choose between us" scene). Most recently, Cerberus has been confirmed to have established base(s) beyond the Omega-4 relay, which makes a lot more sense if the Collector Base is kept by Shepard.

So Drew Karpyshin's stating that the Alliance fleet has become "dominant and unchallenged" pretty well fits with Udina's in-ME line that the Citadel fleets have been decimated by the Geth attack, which he pronounces if you chose to not relieve the DA.

Paragons, deal with it!

[didymos1120]

Inverness Moon wrote...

KingNothing125 wrote...

Key passage. That has a pretty anti-Council slant to it. It sounds like opinion as opposed to fact. So I would take the conclusion that humanity is unrivaled post-Geth attack with a grain of salt.

I especially doubt it if you had the Alliance save the Destiny Ascension.

It looks to me that you don't have any real reason to think that is opinion, as opposed to fact, other than that it doesn't paint the Council with a pretty picture. That does not make it opinion.

Actually, he does.  That's written in a third-person limited POV, which means it's restricted to and colored by the thoughts of a single character.  In this case, it's the prologue and the POV character is TIM. 

[ThePwener]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Paragons, deal with it!

Hell yeah.




The non-games media does indeed carter to the Renegades instead of the Paragons. Could be author opinion though and the games go in a totally different opinion.

[didymos1120]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

But there are other things like that. The Council in Ascension is said to have been "terribly restructured" or something like that, which is more in line with a Human-led Council.

It's "Even the Council, fundamentally unchanged for nearly a thousand years, had been radically restructured."  That doesn't favor either outcome.  Adding a fourth member from an upstart race that had been on the scene for just a couple decades is still a radical change by galactic standards. Not to mention it applies to the manner in which that came about. 

[Someone With Mass]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Paragons, deal with it!

Okay. I choose to save the DA, because the thought that humanity is capable of running the Citadel and the Council in any civilized and good manner after spending not even half a century on the field is just laughable.

[ThePwener]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Paragons, deal with it!

Okay. I choose to save the DA, because the thought that humanity is capable of running the Citadel and the Council in any civilized and good manner after spending not even half a century on the field is just laughable.

The Collector Base will put everyone in line.

[didymos1120]

Saphra Deden wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Apparently, that was an error that slipped into Ascension. Chris L'Etoile did indeed confirm that on the wiki:

I don't care too much what Chris's insist is an error on the wiki until it is reflected in game.

After all, originally the ships seen at the end of ME1 were supposed to be dreadnoughts, but we got cruisers instead. Nothing in the games has ever supported them being dreadnoughts so cruisers they are.

So why do you credit the book then?  How is it more valid than a direct statement by a guy who was still on the writing team when he said that (whereas Drew was, by then, not)?  And you're also misreading him about the dreadnoughts: he said that they CHANGED THE LORE so that they really are cruisers:  "we had to re-designate the model as a cruiser." Alliance dreadnoughts from that point on were something different.