477 réponses à ce sujet

[Phaedon]

marshalleck, what did they do to you?

[SandTrout]

Terror_K wrote...

And that's justification enough to flip off a good portion of your old fans? So long as you're making a profit, the people that got you where you are today don't matter, is that it?

BioWare wants to please as many people as possible. You are being extremely selfish in claiming that they must operate for your happiness and not for others.

[marshalleck]

Phaedon wrote...

marshalleck, what did they do to you?

What did who do to me?

I've always been a pre-eminent voice of reason, Phaedon. The fact that I disagree with both yourself and Terror_K proves that I represent the moderate, sensible majority opinion. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 08 août 2011 - 09:34 .

[Someone With Mass]

Terror_K wrote...

It doesn't need to at all. That's a fallacy. There are always choices, and BioWare isn't going to go bankrupt if it decides to stick with its roots. Newsflash: those roots are what got it where it is today.

That doesn't mean it can't branch out. 

[RocketManSR2]

Damn it. I knew I shouldn't have clicked on this topic. My poor brain cells...

[Terror_K]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

You are welcome to go back to your dice, pencils, photocopied character sheets and rulebooks which get updated to a new version every 18 months because a new publisher feels they need to tweak it to justify getting people to buiy the same thing over and over again.

Go back to? I still am, at least once a week. Just switched from Star Wars: Saga Edition to Mutants and Masterminds: 3rd Edition.

Or,  you can evolve like the genre is doing.

I'd hardly call it envolving in any meaningful sense. Oversimplification and falling back on old mechanics from other genres that are done to death and more hackeneyed than any RPG ones is hardly "evolving" in any sense of the term. I might as well just throw away my scoped 22 rifle and exchange it for a stick with a pointy rock tied to the end of it... the principle is pretty much the same.

Modifié par Terror_K, 08 août 2011 - 09:39 .

[FRANCESCO84Inn]

i need more more RPG's element.

[marshalleck]

Well, except that they seem to be adding mechanics back to Mass Effect, rather than going the ME2 route again and removing yet more.

Modifié par marshalleck, 08 août 2011 - 09:37 .

[SandTrout]

I'd hardly call it envolving in any meaningful sense. Oversimplification and falling back on old mechanics from other genres that are working and more hackeneyed than any RPG ones is hardly "evolving" in any sense of the term.

Fixed.

I might as well just throw away my scoped 22 rifle and exchange it for a stick with a pointy rock tied to the end of it... the principle is pretty much the same.

Actually, it's more akin to turning in your AR-15 for an AK.

[Terror_K]

SandTrout wrote...

BioWare wants to please as many people as possible. You are being extremely selfish in claiming that they must operate for your happiness and not for others.

I just don't get this concept that I'm the one being selfish when I want BioWare to stick to their roots instead of catering to an already well overfed audience with plenty on their plates as it is. That just doesn't make sense to me. The mainstream gamer has already got hundeds of titles aimed at them, and yet I'm selfish for wanting one or two that were initially aimed at me to simply remain aimed at me?

Someone With Mass wrote...

That doesn't mean it can't branch out. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

True. But can't they branch out with new IPs designed to be for the common gamer, instead of (to put it bluntly) "jocking up their nerd titles?"

Modifié par Terror_K, 08 août 2011 - 09:45 .

[Clonedzero]

the mass effect series has never been a pure RPG, people need to get that through their skulls. its always been a hybrid game. action-rpg. not just RPG.

the RPG genre is fine, this is more pointless panic fearmongering going "omg, you dont have a tedious loot system? RPGS ARE DEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11!!1!!!"

i absolutely hate people like that.

the hardcore oldschool baulders gate fans for example, they dont want new games, they want pretty much the exact same thing up-rezzed to todays graphics. they complain and whine and steer developers in outdated directions.

also, there are loads of traditional RPGs coming out too. seriously people need to stop overreacting with crap like this.

[Captain Crash]

While I am disconcerted that certain RPG aspects were fading away I have to say this article is highly flawed and isnt a good read.

They talk about Mass Effect 2 striping away customisation and story. Then briefly for a sentance at the end say that it will be coming back in ME3. Kind of makes the last rant irrelevant as Bioware have learnt from it. Guess there wouldnt have been an article if they said that from the start.

Additionally complaining about a user friendly interface on Skyrim? This is possible one the most immersive RPGs I have ever seen and they still want to complain about it. This is the first time it looks like they got the interface right!! Oblivions interface was horrible.

Anyway last part isnt about ME3 but for me shows this article doesnt have a legitimate base on its concerns. Its just has a concern but cant back it up with real evidence. Its fine to say your concerned about something, but dont lie and pretend something its not.

Modifié par Captain Crash, 08 août 2011 - 09:46 .

[SandTrout]

I just don't get this concept that I'm the one being selfish when I want BioWare to stick to their roots instead of catering to an already well overfed audience with plenty on their plates as it is. That just doesn't make sense to me. The mainstream gamer has already got hundeds of titles aimed at them, and yet I'm selfish for wanting one or two that were initially aimed at me to simply remain aimed at me?

Actually, my comment was somewhat tongue in cheek. Yes, BioWare is being selfish in their quest for 'teh moneez', but so are you by assuming that you have any right to decide what BioWare should or shouldn't do that does not benefit them in any meaningful way. No, the appreciation of a small portion of die-hard fans is not meaningful unless it is profitable.

If you think that there is a market for the kind of games that BioWare used to make, then by all means, start up your own development company. Make the games and sell them. You will have no competition since according to you there are not even '1 or 2' games of that particular genre being developed.

[Spanky Magoo]

Clonedzero wrote...

the mass effect series has never been a pure RPG, people need to get that through their skulls. its always been a hybrid game. action-rpg. not just RPG.

the RPG genre is fine, this is more pointless panic fearmongering going "omg, you dont have a tedious loot system? RPGS ARE DEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11!!1!!!"

i absolutely hate people like that.

the hardcore oldschool baulders gate fans for example, they dont want new games, they want pretty much the exact same thing up-rezzed to todays graphics. they complain and whine and steer developers in outdated directions.

also, there are loads of traditional RPGs coming out too. seriously people need to stop overreacting with crap like this.

agreed

[marshalleck]

Clonedzero wrote...

also, there are loads of traditional RPGs coming out too. seriously people need to stop overreacting with crap like this.

 

Such as?

[Terror_K]

SandTrout wrote...

Actually, my comment was somewhat tongue in cheek. Yes, BioWare is being selfish in their quest for 'teh moneez', but so are you by assuming that you have any right to decide what BioWare should or shouldn't do that does not benefit them in any meaningful way. No, the appreciation of a small portion of die-hard fans is not meaningful unless it is profitable.

If you think that there is a market for the kind of games that BioWare used to make, then by all means, start up your own development company. Make the games and sell them. You will have no competition since according to you there are not even '1 or 2' games of that particular genre being developed.

I'm sorry... I didn't realise that Dragon Age: Origins was such a financial failure for BioWare! I guess they must have been lying when they said that it was their most profitable and popular original IP with the original game alone, well before DA2 was even out.

Modifié par Terror_K, 08 août 2011 - 09:52 .

[Bogsnot1]

So its another case of elitism. Bioware are not allowed to branch out to other gamers and try and introduce them to the RPG genre, because it will infringe on your "uniqueness" somehow.

Very few PnP RPGers would have stuck to the games if their very first experience involved the horrid complexity of creating a character in RuneQuest. After being gently introduced to the genre by (A)D&D, Gamma World, Warhammer Fantasy RP, Shadowrun and the like, then they would have had the patience and understanding to go through the RuneQuest procedure.

Your demands that Bioware placate your wants because you are one of their "core fans from early days" holds about as much merit as me demanding another stack of Harry Potter movies after Death Hollows Pt 2 because I was one of JK Rowlings "core fans from the early days".

[didymos1120]

marshalleck wrote...

You're doing yourself a disservice here because you're making it very easy to simply write off your position as obviously biased schlock

Essentially being a Single Issue Poster, and a prolific one at that, doesn't exactly incline people to listen with interest either.

[Bogsnot1]

Clonedzero wrote...
the hardcore oldschool baulders gate fans for example, they dont want new games, they want pretty much the exact same thing up-rezzed to todays graphics. they complain and whine and steer developers in outdated directions.

Hey, I'm one of those hardcore BG fans, but I do want to see new games, going in new directions, and experimentation with different RPG formats.

[marshalleck]

didymos1120 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

You're doing yourself a disservice here because you're making it very easy to simply write off your position as obviously biased schlock

Essentially being a Single Issue Poster, and a prolific one at that, doesn't exactly incline people to listen with interest either.

Indeed. I'm reminded of the very loud, but also marginalized Tea Party nutjobs in America. 

Bioware courts these RPG purist grognards at their peril, much like moderate Republicans hoping for advantage in elections play with fire by courting an extremist base.

Although to be fair to Bioware, they seem to recognize the pitfalls of doing so.

Modifié par marshalleck, 08 août 2011 - 09:58 .

[FoxShadowblade]

SandTrout wrote...

Actually, my comment was somewhat tongue in cheek. Yes, BioWare is being selfish in their quest for 'teh moneez', but so are you by assuming that you have any right to decide what BioWare should or shouldn't do that does not benefit them in any meaningful way. No, the appreciation of a small portion of die-hard fans is not meaningful unless it is profitable.

If you think that there is a market for the kind of games that BioWare used to make, then by all means, start up your own development company. Make the games and sell them. You will have no competition since according to you there are not even '1 or 2' games of that particular genre being developed.

People on these forums seem to think that BioWare's sole motivation is money. People need to realize that the majority of Mass Effect players are not people who played D&D, Baldur's Gate back in the day, and got Dragon Age Origins and loved it, then hated DA2 because it wasn't "RPG" enough. They are people who love good shooter mechanics, as well as the immersive and engaging story. BioWare is trying so hard to stick to RPG roots while also giving that majority the game they want to play. Because that is what their fanbase is now, not, as you pointed out, a few die-hard fans.

The age-old RPG is a dying breed, and good riddance. Mechanics and gameplay like Mass Effect 2 are a step in the right direction from Mass Effect. Mass Effect 3 will be a bigger and (hopefully)even better step in the new direction of making the game hold some of the RPG mechanics, but retain a satisfying shooter.

[Clonedzero]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...
the hardcore oldschool baulders gate fans for example, they dont want new games, they want pretty much the exact same thing up-rezzed to todays graphics. they complain and whine and steer developers in outdated directions.

Hey, I'm one of those hardcore BG fans, but I do want to see new games, going in new directions, and experimentation with different RPG formats.

name some new directions you want RPGs to head in then.

i honestly don't understand the anger against improving combat and removing pointless tedious mechanics.

it seems alot of people have different ideas what an RPG is.

when i think of an RPG: i think of.
- a strong, fairly length story.
- strong characters and character development.
- an overarching main "quest' with side stuff littered about everywhere.
- exploration
- choices

however, alot of people seem to think RPG's are more about
- clunky inventory mechanics
- loot, "hey i upgraded my sword +1 into a sword +2! yay! carrot on a stick!"
- grinding
- leveling systems that reward specific playstyles
- bad combat mechanics (anytime i see a new RPG with good looking combat, i see people complain)

[Terror_K]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

So its another case of elitism. Bioware are not allowed to branch out to other gamers and try and introduce them to the RPG genre, because it will infringe on your "uniqueness" somehow.

No, because they don't seem to be able to do it without taking away the factors that I enjoy about RPGs and introducing elements from modern action games I dislike. I've said it before and I'll say it again, this want of them to have their cake and eat it too won't work. These hyrbid affairs aren't RPG enough to satisfy many of their core, existing RPG fans, but are also too RPG to really bring in the numbers they want. They're hovering in the middle and just creating generic titles like everybody else in the process. Ironically other developers are making their action games with more cinematic and RPG elements, and yet BioWare is doing the opposite: actioning up their RPGs and reducing their RPG elements. They're both heading in the same direction, just from different angles, to both try and make these perfect hyrbid action games with cinematic and narrative driven style and light RPG elements.

Simply put, different people have different tastes, and BioWare are trying to cater to too many tastes that are already being targeted by almost every other AAA developer as it is, rather than just making the RPGs they used to. It's not infringing on my "uniqueness" it's just no longer appealing to me and becoming generic and samey.

Again, BioWare are allowed to branch out, but if they want they should do it with new IPs (or at the very least spin-off titles) instead of deliberately sabotaging their existing games just to branch out. I enjoyed Mass Effect in the first place because it wasn't the generic games most AAA titles are today and because I felt it was aimed at me. Now it's just become like everything else.

Also, again, what's the point in creating these hybrid titles to wean non-RPG players onto RPGs when you're not even making RPGs any more? What exactly are they weaning these gamers onto? If the Dragon Age side of things was still intact then perhaps there would be cause for such measures, but even that's succumbed to the mainstreamlining and action-RPG hybrid approach now.

[Undertone]

This is slightly off-topic but I swear Mesina and Phaedon must be a gay couple in real life or something. You are like butt-buddies. What's more annoying of you two is that when you guys complain or ask about something - it's constructive criticism. When somebody asks for more depth and complexity in an overly simplified game that doesn't follow it's predecessor, it's some nerd rpg rager who wants his dices back and is elitist.

I'm actually surprised with Someone With Mass who's the typical person to do something like that usually spouting one-line sentences of how wrong someone is. For once I actually agree with you.

It's the mainstream trend unfortunately and not much can be done about it. And there's also money.

Modifié par Undertone, 08 août 2011 - 10:02 .