477 réponses à ce sujet

[Phaedon]

Luigitornado wrote...

I think classic RPGs were always archaic by design. They are nice, but as we go into the future I would not want to see more of them.

Let's get real here -- younger generation of gamers are caring less and less about classic-type RPGs.

Not just RPGs. 

Try to sell an arcadish sports game -Sensible Soccer tried a few years back, but failed- and an old-school shooter in our current market.

[Luigitornado]

javierabegazo wrote...

Terror_K wrote...
But I have to ask you: do you honestly believe that RPG fans who want more "details, depth and customization" in their RPGs would honestly be happy with the general direction and style BioWare went for with both ME2 and DA2 if these factors were really that important to them? I'm not talking about specifics as to which was necessarily better/worse gameplay wise, I'm talking about the general trend and approach itself.

What I find interesting is that for all your talk of "samey brown mush" and "bland unrecognizable games that copy the same trends", you have an alarming amount of rules and formulae for what quantifies an RPG, which is the exact kind of thinking that leads to "Samey Brown Mush"

It's the "Sacred Cows" of any genre that tend to dilute the originality, and creativity of any product.

You, make a like button happen. So I can like this.

[Luigitornado]

Phaedon wrote...

Luigitornado wrote...

I think classic RPGs were always archaic by design. They are nice, but as we go into the future I would not want to see more of them.

Let's get real here -- younger generation of gamers are caring less and less about classic-type RPGs.

Not just RPGs.

Try to sell an arcadish sports game -Sensible Soccer tried a few years back, but failed- and an old-school shooter in our current market.

Yep it is a trend in the market, or a fad at least. Who knows...maybe in the future a developer will make the most awesomest classic-type RPG ever, and everyone's minds will be blown in the industry thust bringing the "sexy back."

Don't know how far off that will be...but it seems like the only classic-type RPG that has stayed relevant to younger kids has been Pokemon.

[Phaedon]

javierabegazo wrote...


What I find interesting is that for all your talk of "samey brown mush" and "bland unrecognizable games that copy the same trends", you have an alarming amount of rules and formulae for what quantifies an RPG, which is the exact kind of thinking that leads to "Samey Brown Mush"

It's the "Sacred Cows" of any genre that tend to dilute the originality, and creativity of any product.

This is exactly why I was not looking forward to enter the debate, but the statistic progression thing just made it impossible to resist.

We reach this exact point of the debate, with the exact same people, with incredibly similar thread titles, on the exact same topics, and start all over again after one or two weeks pass.

The root of the problem itself can't of course be fixed, but something must happen to discourage people who abandon their older threads discussing the same subject and move on and create new ones.

This is like making fun of discussion and debate. If people want to make statements, they need to start blogs, not create new threads on topics they have already covered multiple times ago.

[Merilsell]

Terror_K wrote...

I just want some consistency and cohesion with their games and IPs, instead of them trying to reivent the wheel with every sequel. Especially in the case of Dragon Age when it wasn't even that broken in the first place and was apparently a massive success, and yet they had to go and design the sequel more for potential fans that are non-fans than for the people that loved the original. Which, I guess, is my overall complaint with BioWare lately: they seem more concerned about branching out and getting new fans than keeping their old ones, at the expense of seriously frelling up their IPs in the process. Dragon Age is essentially a dead IP as far as I'm concerned, not so much for how DA2 turned out, but because of the mentality and willing sabotage of it from the developers.

This. So very much.

[CuseGirl]

Luigitornado wrote...

I think classic RPGs were always archaic by design. They are nice, but as we go into the future I would not want to see more of them.

Let's get real here -- younger generation of gamers are caring less and less about classic-type RPGs.

Younger as in 18 to 32? Unfortunately, a good portion of gamers (in particular the male 18 to 32 group) have grown up on Michael Bay and Jerry Bruckheimer movies. And they have no clue wut military tactics are but it's cool for them to shoot each other, "re-spawn", and keep going. Stat based RPG's, especially the ones as robust as Oblivion or anything more complicated than that is tedious for them. Just gimme the gun so I run and shoot. And that's cool, for them. That's fine.

Our world is overly caffeinated, frenetic really. Please, we dont even use keys to start our cars anymore. 

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Phaedon wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

The only rule I have that defines what an RPG is to me is a meaningful statistical progression system for the player character and a statistical ruleset of pre-defined guidelines and boundaries.

Ironically, if this is true, that then means that the "numbers" and "stats" aspect of RPGs is not difficult, overly complex, outdated or uninteresting to the gaming community at large.

[Phaedon]

Luigitornado wrote...
Yep it is a trend in the market, or a fad at least. Who knows...maybe in the future a developer will make the most awesomest classic-type RPG ever, and everyone's minds will be blown in the industry thust bringing the "sexy back."

Don't know how far off that will be...but it seems like the only classic-type RPG that has stayed relevant to younger kids has been Pokemon.

Fad? Not really.

It's just that people and industries learn to move on, in different directions. 

It's just as valid demanding to see games using the same mechanics since the 80s, than demanding for stores to sell clothing from the 80s. Thank you very much, but I prefer to not be stuck in one place.

If you can't move with the tide, which you by yourself and everyone around you create...deal with it? No, you don't need to. There are dozens of games that have the mechanics you want. And they are extremely cheap now. Some of them are even abandonware.

Go replay them. Mod them. Do whatever you like with them.

Or hey, just buy old games which you never played before.

[CuseGirl]

Luigitornado wrote...
Don't know how far off that will be...but it seems like the only classic-type RPG that has stayed relevant to younger kids has been Pokemon.

lets be real, how is Mass Effect 1/2 much different? Simple leveling system, you can evolve your powers, and certain powers work against certain sheilds/barriers/armor. And its not just you the player, you have you're own little team of sorts and everytime there's a fight, you pull out 1 or 2 of your trusted teammates to kick butt.

[Phaedon]

mrcrusty wrote...
Ironically, if this is true, that then means that the "numbers" and "stats" aspect of RPGs is not difficult, overly complex, outdated or uninteresting to the gaming community at large.

Which is exactly why I never acted as if ME1 was a complex game.It's just a tiresome one. If you are looking for someone who is that RPG mechanics are complex, you are looking at the wrong side of the fence. And uninteresting? Compare the acquisition of points to a Sims game to an old school RPG. And yes, there were still plenty of complaints about grinding in TS2. 

And yes, it is true. Statistical progression does affect your interaction with other NPCs, objects, even your chances for special events to happen to you.

Guidelines? Like classes? Or roles? 

Jobs. They require specific stats.

Modifié par Phaedon, 08 août 2011 - 12:42 .

[Luigitornado]

CuseGirl wrote...

Luigitornado wrote...
Don't know how far off that will be...but it seems like the only classic-type RPG that has stayed relevant to younger kids has been Pokemon.

lets be real, how is Mass Effect 1/2 much different? Simple leveling system, you can evolve your powers, and certain powers work against certain sheilds/barriers/armor. And its not just you the player, you have you're own little team of sorts and everytime there's a fight, you pull out 1 or 2 of your trusted teammates to kick butt.

I LIKE ME1 and 2, I have no problem with either of them :\\

[AngryFrozenWater]

mrcrusty wrote...

Now, as far as Mass Effect goes. It's simple. I don't expect nor care for, an RPG. I care about a third person shooter with a nice story and decent gameplay. If the gameplay is more varied, more open, then the RPG aspects of the game can take a hike. That's not why I play Mass Effect. While I think more RPG elements would be fun, I would not want them in at the cost of fluidity. Which is why for example, I don't want to see stats directly affecting accuracy.

If Mass Effect 3 turns out to be a shooter (fluid or not) with no RPG elements then count me out. I want to have control over a character and I don't want to control a generic shooter character. What's left without having control over the stats? The dialogue wheel during cinematics?

[Beerfish]

The only good rpg's are turn based, have a million attributes that you can put points into. We also want a few very shallow companions but only be able to have one or maybe two at a time. You also have to be able to get through the game without firing as shot. Everything else is garbage and is not an rpg, everyone should know this by now.  (Funny how the dumbest threads on these forums always are the longest.  They are pretty well always on the same theme as well.)

Modifié par Beerfish, 08 août 2011 - 12:53 .

[ISpeakTheTruth]

I think one of the problems with mdern RPGs is that alot of them are dumbing them down. Fable 1&2 were really good games but Fable 3 was so simple that it wasn't fun at all. Mass Effect is the one game that has consistently been a good RPG for the first two games and I see no reason why that should stop now.

[axl99]

I'd say RPGs are evolving. Or rather, they HAVE to evolve.

If we're playing the same genre the same way for the next 10 years that's just digging our heels in and being stubborn about change. We've already had our KOTORs, our NWNs, our BGs, our DnDs....

Enough with that already.

And table top RPGs are still going to be around anyway.

J-RPGs on the other hand have done massive amounts of iteration and innovation on existing systems on their part. Though they still have their die hard Dragon Quest fans who demand the same game every time, they still recognize the need for change. Their devs practically can't stop complaining about having to make the same thing over and over again, because it's stagnating their market.

Modifié par axl99, 08 août 2011 - 12:59 .

[littlezack]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

I think one of the problems with mdern RPGs is that alot of them are dumbing them down. Fable 1&2 were really good games but Fable 3 was so simple that it wasn't fun at all. Mass Effect is the one game that has consistently been a good RPG for the first two games and I see no reason why that should stop now.

I personally found Fable 3 to be the best of the bunch. I didn't care much for the leveling system, but everything else was much more enjoyable - the combat was more enjoyable, the missions were more creative, the world was larger and better detailed, the characters were more memorable, and it had John Cleese.

[goofyomnivore]

I would say modernizing/evolving. I think it was done well in Mass Effect 2 and poorly in Dragon Age 2. However the latter's case could be stemmed from a short dev period.

[Shepard the Leper]

Beerfish wrote...

The only good rpg's are turn based, have a million attributes that you can put points into. We also want a few very shallow companions but only be able to have one or maybe two at a time. You also have to be able to get through the game without firing as shot. Everything else is garbage and is not an rpg, everyone should know this by now.  (Funny how the dumbest threads on these forums always are the longest.  They are pretty well always on the same theme as well.)

Shepard talking to the Reapers: "Hey guys, gals or whatever you are, could you please go an get your genocide-fix some place else? Thanks you."

The End

(would be quite the anti-climax but a horrible game)

[littlezack]

Shepard the Leper wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

The only good rpg's are turn based, have a million attributes that you can put points into. We also want a few very shallow companions but only be able to have one or maybe two at a time. You also have to be able to get through the game without firing as shot. Everything else is garbage and is not an rpg, everyone should know this by now.  (Funny how the dumbest threads on these forums always are the longest.  They are pretty well always on the same theme as well.)

Shepard talking to the Reapers: "Hey guys, gals or whatever you are, could you please go an get your genocide-fix some place else? Thanks you."

The End

(would be quite the anti-climax but a horrible game)

Hey,  you never know, that might work. I doubt anybody's ever tried to get the Reapers to leave by asking them politely.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

littlezack wrote...

Shepard the Leper wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

The only good rpg's are turn based, have a million attributes that you can put points into. We also want a few very shallow companions but only be able to have one or maybe two at a time. You also have to be able to get through the game without firing as shot. Everything else is garbage and is not an rpg, everyone should know this by now.  (Funny how the dumbest threads on these forums always are the longest.  They are pretty well always on the same theme as well.)

Shepard talking to the Reapers: "Hey guys, gals or whatever you are, could you please go an get your genocide-fix some place else? Thanks you."

The End

(would be quite the anti-climax but a horrible game)

Hey,  you never know, that might work. I doubt anybody's ever tried to get the Reapers to leave by asking them politely.

Shepard needs to recruit Mr Thax's Krogan Assistant. He would be awesome at asking them to politely leave

[Davie McG]

Phaedon wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...


What I find interesting is that for all your talk of "samey brown mush" and "bland unrecognizable games that copy the same trends", you have an alarming amount of rules and formulae for what quantifies an RPG, which is the exact kind of thinking that leads to "Samey Brown Mush"

It's the "Sacred Cows" of any genre that tend to dilute the originality, and creativity of any product.

This is exactly why I was not looking forward to enter the debate, but the statistic progression thing just made it impossible to resist.

We reach this exact point of the debate, with the exact same people, with incredibly similar thread titles, on the exact same topics, and start all over again after one or two weeks pass.

The root of the problem itself can't of course be fixed, but something must happen to discourage people who abandon their older threads discussing the same subject and move on and create new ones.

This is like making fun of discussion and debate. If people want to make statements, they need to start blogs, not create new threads on topics they have already covered multiple times ago.

Exactly this. The amount of threads all discussing which femshep should adorn the side of the collectors edition or all the threads speculating whether or not multiplayer is or should be in the third game is staggering. I've heard people blame the people who moderate the site but if people would just take a little time to search before they post threads these forums would be better for everyone.

A little personal responsibility would go a long way.

To stay on topic however I think mass effect is a fine example of how RPG's can be done differently, an evolution if you will. And with other games out there like dragon age, fable, the elder scrolls series, the witcher games etc I think there is a healthy variety in the genre that shows both evolution of what the old RPG's were and improvement on the games they are currently making which will further evolve the genre.

Now if this discussion should be somewhere else if a moderator would be kind enough to move or lock this thread that would be grand.

[Drone696]

Terror_K, how do you get to "77% of voters who aren't happy with the direction RPGs are taking lately"?
The people who want "details, depth and customization" aren't necessarily unhappy with the direction RPGs are taking, and I'm one of them. Why can't I like both DAO and DA2?
And "willing sabotage from the developers", come on.

[Luigitornado]

rapunzel696 wrote...

Terror_K, how do you get to "77% of voters who aren't happy with the direction RPGs are taking lately"?
The people who want "details, depth and customization" aren't necessarily unhappy with the direction RPGs are taking, and I'm one of them. Why can't I like both DAO and DA2?
And "willing sabotage from the developers", come on.

Hmmmm...but wait these "voters" were not selected from a radomized selected group.

[Whatever42]

I want "details, depth and customization" but loved ME2. I admit that the game needed a bit more customization for my taste but I think that was simply a logistical problem with time and budget, not one of design philosophy. Games are definitely not getting dumbed down. The tactical, table-top war-gaming is not more intelligent or sophisticated than modern RPGs.

[CuseGirl]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

I think one of the problems with mdern RPGs is that alot of them are dumbing them down. Fable 1&2 were really good games but Fable 3 was so simple that it wasn't fun at all. Mass Effect is the one game that has consistently been a good RPG for the first two games and I see no reason why that should stop now.

I dont see wuts wrong with simple/fluid controls. I also dont see how complex controls make a game more enjoyable, like NBA 2k11. That was the first sports game that, in my opinion, alienated gamers because the controls were just ridiculously hard to use, no margin for error on anything.

I like the fact that I can map the triangle button to my Tech Armor or L2 to warp, because I dont wanna sit in the power wheel PAUSE menu during battles.

Modifié par CuseGirl, 08 août 2011 - 01:17 .