403 réponses à ce sujet

[darth_lopez]

Alright just here me out for a bit here.

Now i'm not saying that i don't understand that 1) In 90% of all sci-fi we're the superior race no matter the circumstances or 2) that Humans are in some way shape and form already Very important in Mass Effects plot (nope no avoiding it unless you pretend ME 2 didn't happen) 

I just want to see why it is so many people think that having earth, in particular, play some important role in the story is a bad thing? (genereic sci-fi aside) Our species is being killed off systematically on our own homeworld that we're fleeing from at the start of ME 3 is it really so bad to some how link our Home World to getting a truckload and thensome of revenge on the reapers? Would it be nice if Klendagoon, Klencory etc... are involved totally. Would it be nice to see us on par with every other species (if not in a slightly worse situation)? I thought from the sounds of it we already were, being harvested for out gene goo and then exterminated while our fleets and homeworld is ravaged isn't exactly sunshine and roses. We aren't Magically fending Aliens off (ala 90% of most sci-fi) through simply being better. We are actually being wiped out, assimilated, etc... in ME 3.

I may not understand the trope entirely (as i don't closely follow tropes) But in this situation where shepard could very well end up being one of the last few humans alive We aren't prime cut super soldier yet either.

So just discuss/explain how linking Earth to a Weapon(i do mean Earth as in the Planet literally just the planet and not necessarily the species) or something that could seriously damage the reapers is a bad thing?

Even then Considering the Reapers Immensley High Interest in our species what would be wrong with linking us specifically to their doom (as the series is already set up to do. Despite this being relatively generic sci-fi if it's pulled off in an interesting way i don't see the problem.)?

[Bogsnot1]

Lazy writing is unacceptable. Following the age old trope of "humans be speshul coz they be speshul herpyderp" is old, boring, and quite frankly, insulting.

If we were the only race in the galaxy, fair enough, but in a multi-raced adventure like ME, it would be nice for someone else to hold the trump card occasionally.

[SandTrout]

Honestly, ME doesn't portray Humanity as all that 'special'. We are unique in our diversity, both biologically and culturally, but all of the other species are pretty unique as well. The Asari are a race of jedi space-elves, the Turians are a highly disciplined military dictatorship, the Salarians are sneaky, quick-thinking, interstellar lizards, the Krogan are biological tanks, the Elcor are slow-tempered inhabitants of a high-gravity world, and the Volus are dormant Biotic Gods. In this menagerie, humans are not that special.

The only thing that is Special about humanity is that we happen to be the ones that BioWare is marketing to, and therefor the story will be a human-centric one.

[TobyHasEyes]

 Just because, as you say, its an often repeated trope that humanity discovers the galaxy, gets amazed by all the wondrous and terrifying sights they see.. and then suddenly we are the centre of the universe again and everything revolves around us

 It just kills off that initial revelation tha we are small in a big galaxy when we are made of such central importance, and it smacks of feeding people's egos that can't handle not being the biggest fish in the pond

[Someone With Mass]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Lazy writing is unacceptable. Following the age old trope of "humans be speshul coz they be speshul herpyderp" is old, boring, and quite frankly, insulting.

If we were the only race in the galaxy, fair enough, but in a multi-raced adventure like ME, it would be nice for someone else to hold the trump card occasionally.

That.

It just feels boring when humanity accomplishes everything without lifting a finger.

[SandTrout]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Lazy writing is unacceptable. Following the age old trope of "humans be speshul coz they be speshul herpyderp" is old, boring, and quite frankly, insulting.

If we were the only race in the galaxy, fair enough, but in a multi-raced adventure like ME, it would be nice for someone else to hold the trump card occasionally.

Others do hold trump cards. This misconception of humanity being something spectacular in the ME universe is false. If we are superior, then it is by marginal amounts, not leaps and bounds.

[KingNothing125]

Someone With Mass wrote...

It just feels boring when humanity accomplishes everything without lifting a finger.

I don't know about you, but I see lots of Finger Lifting in ME.

Modifié par KingNothing125, 08 août 2011 - 09:09 .

[lovgreno]

Isn't it good that the reapers are dangerous enough to threaten everyone including humanity with extincion? That makes it a better story in my eyes than just having the unstoppable "superior" human race magicaly being unbeatable. I would like it if all the arrogant wannabee empires in the ME story, turians, humans, batarians, etc... got a real good thrashing and had to humbly admit the truth that in the bigger perspective there is no glory in anything except survival. Also I find it more realistic and entertaining to have the reapers beaten by the tried and proven military tactic of superiour numbers and better planning than just finding some magic deus ex machina that fixes everything on Earth.

Sorry if I misunderstood your point.

[TobyHasEyes]

lovgreno wrote...

Isn't it good that the reapers are dangerous enough to threaten everyone including humanity with extincion? That makes it a better story in my eyes than just having the unstoppable "superior" human race magicaly being unbeatable. I would like it if all the arrogant wannabee empires in the ME story, turians, humans, batarians, etc... got a real good thrashing and had to humbly admit the truth that in the bigger perspective there is no glory in anything except survival. Also I find it more realistic and entertaining to have the reapers beaten by the tried and proven military tactic of superiour numbers and better planning than just finding some magic deus ex machina that fixes everything on Earth.

Sorry if I misunderstood your point.

 In terms of deus ex machina, the Reaper threat will seem a bit tame if a simple miltary foce can stop them, but it would be nice and accomodating if, say, those who follow Cerberus and their fight for research at any cost will find thei deus ex machina there, and then those who want galactic unity and distrust Cerberus then find the deus ex machina at some multi-species research centre that has long been Council-commissioned or something. It would be very accomodating

[DonDaMon]

Humans are special = lazy writing ...

[armass]

Race of Mary Sues.

Modifié par armass, 08 août 2011 - 09:14 .

[marshalleck]

self-hating liberal guilt

Modifié par marshalleck, 08 août 2011 - 09:16 .

[TobyHasEyes]

marshalleck wrote...

self-hating liberal guilt

[SandTrout]

Can anyone please point out to me anywhere that Humanity is unreasonably portrayed as 'special' other than being unique, which every species in ME is?

[lovgreno]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

Isn't it good that the reapers are dangerous enough to threaten everyone including humanity with extincion? That makes it a better story in my eyes than just having the unstoppable "superior" human race magicaly being unbeatable. I would like it if all the arrogant wannabee empires in the ME story, turians, humans, batarians, etc... got a real good thrashing and had to humbly admit the truth that in the bigger perspective there is no glory in anything except survival. Also I find it more realistic and entertaining to have the reapers beaten by the tried and proven military tactic of superiour numbers and better planning than just finding some magic deus ex machina that fixes everything on Earth.

Sorry if I misunderstood your point.

 In terms of deus ex machina, the Reaper threat will seem a bit tame if a simple miltary foce can stop them, but it would be nice and accomodating if, say, those who follow Cerberus and their fight for research at any cost will find thei deus ex machina there, and then those who want galactic unity and distrust Cerberus then find the deus ex machina at some multi-species research centre that has long been Council-commissioned or something. It would be very accomodating

Good point, everyone should have to work for the victory and suffer setbacks.

[TobyHasEyes]

SandTrout wrote...

Can anyone please point out to me anywhere that Humanity is unreasonably portrayed as 'special' other than being unique, which every species in ME is?

 Partly Renegade ends which suggest that only humanity has the stomach to carry out this fight, and that the Reapers want us as their prime species,  but that isn't what people are complaining about here

 People are stating that they don't want Earth and humanity's struggle in M3 to be the greatst focus, as it is one homeworld among many. That and if the idea is used that Earth or umanity has som special deus ex machina role to play then it will be the case that they are unreasonably being portrayed as central to the universe

 In other words, people are saying what they hope won't happen

[lovgreno]

marshalleck wrote...

self-hating liberal guilt

Or perhaps realisticly realising that you can't be best at everything as we are not infailiable gods.

[Reptillius]

There is being the underdog... Which in some ways humanity is in ME right now and that's not a bad way to be. It can make for an excellent story.

then there is being handed the hand of god at just the right moment to conquer any threat. This is not a good story. this is a cop out. It's bad story telling at one of it's lowest forms most of the time.

If we are to have a special ability it should fall in line with what is written into the universe already... our adaptability and diversity... this makes it possible to really relate to and get along with many species when things are dire. We do not need to go any farther for special than to be the driving force behind EVERYBODY who is in danger having a chance to play their part in what is at stake and help to overcome the enemy.

Finding a weapon or suddenly being magically gifted with some ultimate solution doesn't fit in the ME universe or many stories and with all the work we've put in already why would any of us want to settle for an ending that basically says "what you did wasn't good enough. We are going to do it all for you now."

[Clonedzero]

but they're not special? all the humans seem to be in the ME universe is a jack of all trades type master of none type race.

also, if there is some key macguffin on earth that the reapers are after and not the humans themselves, it doesnt make humans special, it makes the macguffin.

i also dont really understand the whole "aliens are interesting cus their aliens!" thing. im sorry, but illium didn't feel very alien or special to me, if they replaced all the asari with humans it woulda been the same damn thing.

also, a major theme in the ME series has been HUMANITY FINDING ITS ROLE IN THE GALAXY. its been there the whole damn time lol, why is it now suddenly lazy writing?

some of the most interesting races in any sci-fi universe have been humans. i'll give an example. The Imperium of Man is far far more interesting to read about than any other race/faction in the warhammer 40k universe by a mile.

personally, i WANT to see more stuff with humans in ME3. we've barely explored what earth and humans look like and do in the ME universe. the best we've been to is a couple abandoned human colonies in ME2. but you're all saying exploring what humans are like culturally and such is lazy writing? wtf? seriously, the only human worlds we've been to have been completely abandoned and looted.

my god i hope they dont listen to the fans too much, cus they dont really know what they want.

[darth_lopez]

DonDaMon wrote...

Humans are special = lazy writing ...

Honestly i don't see how it's lazy writing to take pride in your species and want it to be superior. If they say coppied someone elses method of doing it that would be lazy writing. But by that logic anything that has a Trope  that's used frequently is written lazily. Enjoy your Cinisim. ^^

While I'm not completely condoning the trope If i wasn't clear enough to begin with (good possibility) I was trying to state that i don't see where the "I don't Want Humans to Be Special" Attitude comes from in this situation. Is it not Good enough that our species could very well be ended? That we see our Home Burn Before invaders our cities and landmarks destroyed. Hostoric cities that Represent our rise and achievement crumbled before our eyes? Does this not warrant some sort of Opportunity for vengence that at least our world, if not our species, might hold?

On another note, specifically the one of the different species being "better" than humans by some degree:
Turian Fleet not defeat in a long time. Win at First contact. Lose Retaliatory strike by a Human Fleet. Military Superiority Achieved in favor of Humans (or at the very least putting us on par with the military might of the Turians)
Asari All in all humanity is more physically capable than the average Asari As well as being able to post Jedi-Powers. Special Traits Subverted.
Krogan Humanity is more sensible while still exhibiting Krogan Determination and stubborness. Aside from that The only thing the Krogan have going for them are being tanks. Not to mention a dying bread of tank thanks to their brutish culture (Cutlural Superiority as well as intellectual Superiority achieved)
Next the salarians As i recall their only remarkable traits are their intelligence then their Spec Ops/Intel Ops. Humanity while incapable of matching the average intelligence of the Salarian is all around Longer lived, more physically capable, probably less prone to heart attacks, cutlurally superior, and Still (as i recall from the occasional codex in ME 1) capable of matching their intelligence Agencies.
We are also all around superior to volus, batarian, probably elcor, hanhar, not necessarily drell, etc... the Yagh seem to be the only things we can't match and Conveniently they aren't in the story aside from being the shadow broker.

In short while all the races ahve unique talents. humanity in ME lore manages to successful match each races talents while being the focal point of reaper rage. Sounds like "Humans are special" to me Bioware simply approached the trope from a less obvious angle by flooding our imagination with diversity and Making us On par/Physically superior/Not dying off in comparison to everyone else. Not only that But The fact humans are special is refrenced through out ME 1 (Fastest Climb to galactic power ever seen before in galactic history since the formation fo the council, defeated super dreadnaught)

"Humans are special" is a trope already present in the ME universe. Just to sort out those who would delude themselves otherwise ;P Diversity does not exclude the trope from the universe but rather cleverly conceals it.

[TobyHasEyes]

Clonedzero wrote...

but they're not special? all the humans seem to be in the ME universe is a jack of all trades type master of none type race.

also, if there is some key macguffin on earth that the reapers are after and not the humans themselves, it doesnt make humans special, it makes the macguffin.

i also dont really understand the whole "aliens are interesting cus their aliens!" thing. im sorry, but illium didn't feel very alien or special to me, if they replaced all the asari with humans it woulda been the same damn thing.

also, a major theme in the ME series has been HUMANITY FINDING ITS ROLE IN THE GALAXY. its been there the whole damn time lol, why is it now suddenly lazy writing?

some of the most interesting races in any sci-fi universe have been humans. i'll give an example. The Imperium of Man is far far more interesting to read about than any other race/faction in the warhammer 40k universe by a mile.

personally, i WANT to see more stuff with humans in ME3. we've barely explored what earth and humans look like and do in the ME universe. the best we've been to is a couple abandoned human colonies in ME2. but you're all saying exploring what humans are like culturally and such is lazy writing? wtf? seriously, the only human worlds we've been to have been completely abandoned and looted.

my god i hope they dont listen to the fans too much, cus they dont really know what they want.

 Earth having a macguffin does make our homeworld of central importance in the galaxy, which still has the same associated feeling of 'sigh, this again'

 And I admit that exploring more alien areas over human areas isjust a preference, but its a preference I am happy to express

[SandTrout]

@TobyHasEyes,

I'm more irritated that this issue keeps coming up as a complaint that has no basis in this particular IP. People have complained that Humans are 'special again' in ME when in fact we are not in any major functional sense.

[Vengeful Nature]

SandTrout wrote...

Honestly, ME doesn't portray Humanity as all that 'special'. We are unique in our diversity, both biologically and culturally, but all of the other species are pretty unique as well.

Which is a load of crap, because it stems from a misunderstanding of biology based on outdated, and frankly dangerous, beliefs. Humanity is far less genetically diverse than those old coots ever thought.

Think on this:

- The salarians don't live very long, and they have been a spacefaring species for around two millennia. When a species is seperated and placed in different environments for enough generations, it tends to speciate. Therefore, salarian genetics should be far, far more diverse than humanities, because they have had more generations to adapt to a large variety of environments.
- The asari seem to have the ability to pick and choose parts of their mates genetic information (either consiously or unconsiously) to variate what their offspring gets in terms of genetic information. Shouldn't every asari individual that is the product of the mating between an asari and a different species be genetically diverse from the next such individual? Hint: the answer is yes.

The only thing that is Special about humanity is that we happen to be the ones that BioWare is marketing to, and therefor the story will be a human-centric one.

Right, but you can have a human-centric story without having a human-centric universe. From the start, Mass Effect was about humanity's place in a larger galaxy. It's a shame that they've made the Reaper particularly interested in humanity, because it basically makes humanity the centre of this large galaxy. If the Reapers are focusing on humanity for now, it might well mean that humanity holds the key to their defeat, either in terms of tactics, or some ridiculous deus ex machina that some people are predicting.

TobyHasEyes wrote...

Just because, as you say, its an often repeated trope that humanity discovers the galaxy, gets amazed by all the wondrous and terrifying sights they see.. and then suddenly we are the centre of the universe again and everything revolves around us

 It just kills off that initial revelation tha we are small in a big galaxy when we are made of such central importance, and it smacks of feeding people's egos that can't handle not being the biggest fish in the pond.

Amen, brother.

SandTrout wrote...

Can anyone please point out to me anywhere that Humanity is unreasonably portrayed as 'special' other than being unique, which every species in ME is?

- Anything Harbinger says to you when you're with a teammate of another species.
- Mordin's yakkety yakk about greater human genetic diversity, which clearly, at least to me, alludes to a greater part of the plot in ME3.
- The fact that Commander Shepard, a human, is apparently the only person actually doing anything about the Reapers. Does he have any contemporaries of other species? I doubt it, but I guess we'll find out in ME3.

Modifié par Vengeful Nature, 08 août 2011 - 09:50 .

[TobyHasEyes]

SandTrout wrote...

@TobyHasEyes,

I'm more irritated that this issue keeps coming up as a complaint that has no basis in this particular IP. People have complained that Humans are 'special again' in ME when in fact we are not in any major functional sense.

 As a worry that this issue will come to pass in ME3 I can understand it, as I don't want ME3 to be all about saving Earth, or finding some uniquely human / earth-based solution to the problems, but I dare say that won't happen and the reason it appears to be so at the moment is that they want to market saving Earth to newcomers, but I suspect that is just marketing

 But I agree, thus far I haven't seen much in ME series to suggest humanity is the top dog, only from some BSN users