403 réponses à ce sujet

[Goneaviking]

Weskerr wrote...

I don't think there's anything ridiculous about humanity catching up, technologically, to the other Citadel species in a short amount of time. There are real-world historical instances of nations doing the same thing.

For instance, Japan. After Commodore Perry forced them to open trade with the United States and the west in 1854, within 50 years they - a backwards country, inferior technologically to the west in almost every way - were able to adopt western technology and science and become a world power comparable to any European country at the time (They defeated the Russian fleet in the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-05).

Another example is Israel. Recognized as a Jewish state in 1948 by the United Nations, within less than 10 years (along with Britain and France) they were able to stop Egypt from taking over the Seuz Canal. Within less than 20 years, they were able to not only fight off Syria, Jordan, and Egypt from invading their territory, but also conquered lands that belonged to those countries in the Six-Day War. And there are more examples concering Israel.

The problem with the Japanese analogy is in your post: they adopted western technology and science.

They were able to buy the technology and gain direct instruction in it's use and appropriate background information which allowed them to pretty much catch up. They were also involved in a massive military campaign which allowed them to develop strategies to use their new technology effectively (like Germany's involvement in the Spanish Civil War).

Humanity didn't have anyone to coach them in developing their technology until after the first contact war, they also didn't have anyone to war against so that they could effectively practice their strategies and tactics. Yet once they got attacked by the Turians they were able to hold their own against the finest military in the galaxy in what objectively shouldhave been an inordinately one-sided conflict.

The problem with the Israel analogy is similar in that Israel had important foreign backers pretty much since it's inception which gave it a number of decisive advantages over it's neighbours. 

Modifié par Goneaviking, 09 août 2011 - 12:01 .

[Nerevar-as]

Goneaviking wrote...


Humanity didn't have anyone to coach them in developing their technology until after the first contact war, they also didn't have anyone to war against so that they could effectively practice their strategies and tactics. Yet once they got attacked by the Turians they were able to hold their own against the finest military in the galaxy in what objectively shouldhave been an inordinately one-sided conflict.

They didn´t. The turians won Shanxi, got cocky thinkig they had dealt with most of humanity´s forces, and got caught in a full counterattack. And it stopped there, Turians weren´t allowed the chance to use their full power against the Alliance. From the Codex entry it seemed most of the space battles were fought by the patrol who made first contact. Their opinion on the whole conflict is that it was just an incident.

[Dean_the_Young]

marshalleck wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

I don't think a race is "special" just because it's born with a few certain beneficial traits/traits that are acceptable given the environment, but it can be overdone.

Exactly. I don't mind humanity being the adaptive race that gains a lot of sucesses in a short time. In fact it usualy makes a good story in the ME universe. But going from a newcommer without even a single colony to the possible bully of the Citadell in less than a human lifetime? That is adaptive to the level of Mary Sueism, wich is not what I find a interesting story. But sure, if someone wants to play as Super Shepard from the superiour race who am I to deny them that? Personaly I find underdogs more interesting and realistic though.

So if the game were set in 2285 but none of the narrative or gameplay elements changed at all you'd be perfectly content with it?

That's a pretty insignificant gripe, come on. 

On the other hand, I don't recall him claiming it was a significant gripe either.

Mass Effect has always had a number of small gripes that don't undermine the overall quality or enjoyment of the series on their own. Timeline is one: the uneven handling of carry-overs for choices from ME1 was another. Item inventory IN ME1 was a mostly insignificant gripe on its own as well.

Griping, if not taken to excess, is perfectly commendable: it reminds us of the real flaws, without letting us ignore them. Now, is lovgreno taking it to excess?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 09 août 2011 - 12:35 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Humans are "special" in the Mass Effect universe, because originally there were not supposed to be any aliens in it - aside from the Reapers and those that got reaped before (aka the Protheans). Just one species per cycle.

http://www.gameinfor...fect-began.aspx

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 09 août 2011 - 02:44 .

[didymos1120]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Humans are "special" in the Mass Effect universe, because originally there were not supposed to be any aliens in it - aside from the Reapers and those that got reaped before (aka the Protheans). Just one species per cycle.

http://www.gameinfor...fect-began.aspx

That ain't what he said, Zulu. Not even close.  He said the "Are there aliens?" question was one of many they had to answer before actually starting development in earnest, along with stuff like "Is there time travel?".  They didn't even have a story at that point.

[Zulu_DFA]

didymos1120 wrote...

That ain't what he said, Zulu. Not even close.  He said the "Are there aliens?" question was one of many they had to answer before actually starting development in earnest, along with stuff like "Is there time travel?".  They didn't even have a story at that point.

Ummm, IDK. Mars repurposed as Klendagon rings a bell maybe?

Anyway, what I'm saying is that somebody like Drew Karpyshyn probably wrote a script (for the main story arc - with Shepard, Reapers and Cerberus in it) and sold it to BioWare, then the development got going and things were added to make it a bigger and fancier universe.

(And that script was based mainly on Clarke's "Space Odyssey" series.)

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 09 août 2011 - 03:21 .

[Someone With Mass]

marshalleck wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

I don't think a race is "special" just because it's born with a few certain beneficial traits/traits that are acceptable given the environment, but it can be overdone.

Exactly. I don't mind humanity being the adaptive race that gains a lot of sucesses in a short time. In fact it usualy makes a good story in the ME universe. But going from a newcommer without even a single colony to the possible bully of the Citadell in less than a human lifetime? That is adaptive to the level of Mary Sueism, wich is not what I find a interesting story. But sure, if someone wants to play as Super Shepard from the superiour race who am I to deny them that? Personaly I find underdogs more interesting and realistic though.

So if the game were set in 2285 but none of the narrative or gameplay elements changed at all you'd be perfectly content with it?

That's a pretty insignificant gripe, come on. 

Well, it's usually those small details that either ruins a lot for you, or makes it more believable.

More stories about struggles to gain respect and ground on the human side wouldn't have hurt either.

[In Exile]

Saphra Deden wrote...

It could be empowering for Shepard and thus the player, and through extension, humanity. However making humanity so powerful in every aspect, and making this a notable trait of our species, is taking it a little too far.

The poster mentioned that humanity wouldn't get an empowered hero that improves their lot, though. A point was made against that cliche specifically. 

[didymos1120]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

That ain't what he said, Zulu. Not even close.  He said the "Are there aliens?" question was one of many they had to answer before actually starting development in earnest, along with stuff like "Is there time travel?".  They didn't even have a story at that point.

Ummm, IDK. Mars repurposed as Klendagon rings a bell maybe?

Anyway, what I'm saying is that somebody like Drew Karpyshyn probably wrote a script (for the main story arc - with Shepard, Reapers and Cerberus in it) and sold it to BioWare, then the development got going and things were added to make it a bigger and fancier universe.

(And that script was based mainly on Clarke's "Space Odyssey" series.)

Go read interviews about the making of the first game.  They're not that hard to find.  Suffice it to say, you're wrong.  That's not how the story was developed.

[Annoyed Dragon]

Took a while to read through this forum so I think I will give my opinion regarding the issues of Human genetic variation:

I think people are getting a little confused about what genetic variation means, this doesn’t apply superior
genetic material it means more possibilities.

The Salarians due to social rules during reproduction cycles only allow 10% of those born to be female. They control this since their biology only allows the fertilised eggs to become female, this biological function combined with the fact their reproduction activities are not controlled by hormones or sexual attraction means they have selective breeding. The way that they form contracts for breeding as well as having genetic histories of their clans, means they only ensure the genes they determine to be beneficial to the next generation.

The Asari reproduce by a melding process using their partners DNA as a guide to re-shuffle their DNA for the offspring produced by this union; this is not genetic absorption since that would result in a hybrid offspring. What this means for variation purposes is that new offspring will inherit new combination of genes from their mother but it will not be genes that didn’t existed in the mother bloodline. The way Asari approach reproduction means they have centuries to decide what they want in a partner, what they determine to be the best traits.

Now Humans reproduction is a result of offspring inheriting half the genetic information from both parents. The genetic variation of our species is the most chaotic compared to Asari and Salarians; the reason is we don’t have centuries to pick our partner or breeding contracts like Salarians closest we have to this is marriage that doesn’t automatically means offspring. The way Humans socially approach reproduction is different compared to other species for example marriage, one night stands, drunk, rape, cheating on their spouse, accidents and
abortion; all these causes variation in the genetics of the next generation.

Reapers interest in variation is logical when considering they are organic-synthetic species, as I said variation means more possibilities for example we don’t know how certain genes would react to Reaper technology; a species with high variations means there is more possible blending with their tech.

Sorry for going on for a bit, but I would like to hear peoples opinions about what I said.            

Modifié par Annoyed Dragon, 09 août 2011 - 05:30 .

[Zulu_DFA]

didymos1120 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

That ain't what he said, Zulu. Not even close.  He said the "Are there aliens?" question was one of many they had to answer before actually starting development in earnest, along with stuff like "Is there time travel?".  They didn't even have a story at that point.

Ummm, IDK. Mars repurposed as Klendagon rings a bell maybe?

Anyway, what I'm saying is that somebody like Drew Karpyshyn probably wrote a script (for the main story arc - with Shepard, Reapers and Cerberus in it) and sold it to BioWare, then the development got going and things were added to make it a bigger and fancier universe.

(And that script was based mainly on Clarke's "Space Odyssey" series.)

Go read interviews about the making of the first game.  They're not that hard to find.  Suffice it to say, you're wrong.  That's not how the story was developed.

All I can do is shrug my shoulders.

And repeat that the aliens were definitely added to the mix already after the "path of the hero" had been established in general terms. Hell, are you going to argue that the Vorcha weren't added after the fact?

[Rekkampum]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The vorcha are such a worthless addition to the franchise.

We could have got sexy turian women, but no, we got barely sentient animals who can't even speak properly.

I love their accents.

[Gabey5]

shepard is human, and alliance... this is a human centric game.. we knew that from day one... a human defeated sovereign, that is why the reapers are on us

[Gabey5]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The vorcha are such a worthless addition to the franchise.

We could have got sexy turian women, but no, we got barely sentient animals who can't even speak properly.

 i love the vorcha

WE KILL YOU!!

[Rekkampum]

Saphra Deden wrote...

WE NO CHARACTER!

WE JUST MONSTER!

GRRAAAAAAAAAGH!

WE KILL YOU!!!!!


Boring. Batarians may be portrayed disproportionately as villains to, but they still have personality. They still have motivations. There many batarian characters in the game. Vorcah however don't have any. If you've spoken to one vorcha you've spoken to all of them.

Probably because they only live for about twenty years? It would be interesting to have a significant Vorcha enemy though.

[Sisterofshane]

Saphra Deden wrote...

WE NO CHARACTER!

WE JUST MONSTER!

GRRAAAAAAAAAGH!

WE KILL YOU!!!!!


Boring. Batarians may be portrayed disproportionately as villains to, but they still have personality. They still have motivations. There many batarian characters in the game. Vorcah however don't have any. If you've spoken to one vorcha you've spoken to all of them.

Okay, Saph, you just made me launch milk out of my nose!  I can totally imagine the vorcha telling Shep exactly that.
And Batarians are bland, they remind me of the inept security guard in charge of the evil genius' secret head quarters.  They all have the same manner of speech and opinions.  About the most interesting batarian was the one standing up in Omega preaching that humans are a galactic blight on society.  Still, though, a step above the Vorcha.
That's what make antagonists like Saren and TIM stand out.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Aren't all batarians voiced by the same dude?

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Saphra Deden wrote...
As is the owner of the market

Favorite one right there,"You get the uppity Human discount,and nothing more."

[Sisterofshane]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

And Batarians are bland, they remind me of the inept security guard in charge of the evil genius' secret head quarters.  They all have the same manner of speech and opinions.

I disagree completely. Batarians are a people first and villains second.

Balak is the best example. He's his own character completely independent of his relationship to Shepard. He's one of the best characters in the series in my opinion.

The sick batarian and the fearful batarian in Mordin's RM are both distinct from one another.

As is the owner of the market, as is Tarak, as is Sgt. Cathka, as is Lt. Charn, as is the Blue Suns recruiter in After Life.

I can't find any distinctive vorcha at all. They are all exactly the same.

I didn't say that they were indistinguishable.  I said they were bland.  I really think that Bioware could have done better in developing the race as a whole, the way they did the asari and the turians.  All batarians can be summed up as such "I'm batarian and I don't like humans."  Haven't met ONE to show me otherwise.  Still one up from the vorcha, as they have an actual reason to not like humans, but they are pretty much all monotone.  I prefer villans who are multidimensional.