403 réponses à ce sujet

[Sisterofshane]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

I didn't say that they were indistinguishable.  I said they were bland.

Well I think you're bland so let's leave it at that.

Your troll is showing again.

[didymos1120]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

I didn't say that they were indistinguishable.  I said they were bland.

Well I think you're bland so let's leave it at that.

What are we on the playground at recess?  Seriously: this level of repartee is better suited to a 1st grader. 

[marshalleck]

didymos1120 wrote...
Seriously: this level of repartee is better suited to a 1st grader.  

no u

[Keatons]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...


Humanity didn't have anyone to coach them in developing their technology until after the first contact war, they also didn't have anyone to war against so that they could effectively practice their strategies and tactics. Yet once they got attacked by the Turians they were able to hold their own against the finest military in the galaxy in what objectively shouldhave been an inordinately one-sided conflict.

They didn´t. The turians won Shanxi, got cocky thinkig they had dealt with most of humanity´s forces, and got caught in a full counterattack. And it stopped there, Turians weren´t allowed the chance to use their full power against the Alliance. From the Codex entry it seemed most of the space battles were fought by the patrol who made first contact. Their opinion on the whole conflict is that it was just an incident.

Gonna borrow this for a sec to make an on-topic point. The victory at Sanxi wasn't because the human tech was superior to the Turians, and not just because Turians got cocky, though that does play significantly into it, but because it was one Turian patrol against an entire Alliance fleet. The codex also says that the turians were evicted from Shanxi, not destroyed and neglects to mentions what, in any, damage and casualties the Second Fleet took in order to do so and implies that before Admiral Drescher's Second Fleet showed up, it had indeed been a one-sided fight.

[Sisterofshane]

marshalleck wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...
Seriously: this level of repartee is better suited to a 1st grader.  

no u

lol -- one of the devs is going to come in here blowing a whistle at us, and we will all have to go sit down on the bench.

[Sisterofshane]

Keatons wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...


Humanity didn't have anyone to coach them in developing their technology until after the first contact war, they also didn't have anyone to war against so that they could effectively practice their strategies and tactics. Yet once they got attacked by the Turians they were able to hold their own against the finest military in the galaxy in what objectively shouldhave been an inordinately one-sided conflict.

They didn´t. The turians won Shanxi, got cocky thinkig they had dealt with most of humanity´s forces, and got caught in a full counterattack. And it stopped there, Turians weren´t allowed the chance to use their full power against the Alliance. From the Codex entry it seemed most of the space battles were fought by the patrol who made first contact. Their opinion on the whole conflict is that it was just an incident.

Gonna borrow this for a sec to make an on-topic point. The victory at Sanxi wasn't because the human tech was superior to the Turians, and not just because Turians got cocky, though that does play significantly into it, but because it was one Turian patrol against an entire Alliance fleet. The codex also says that the turians were evicted from Shanxi, not destroyed and neglects to mentions what, in any, damage and casualties the Second Fleet took in order to do so and implies that before Admiral Drescher's Second Fleet showed up, it had indeed been a one-sided fight.

It was partially ignorance on the Turians part.  They assumed that Shanxi was our homeworld, no merely a colony.
If they had realized that there were more of us out there, the First Contact War would have been WAY different.

[didymos1120]

marshalleck wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...
Seriously: this level of repartee is better suited to a 1st grader.  

no u

Well played.

[Weskerr]

Goneaviking wrote...


The problem with the Japanese analogy is in your post: they adopted western technology and science.

They were able to buy the technology and gain direct instruction in it's use and appropriate background information which allowed them to pretty much catch up. They were also involved in a massive military campaign which allowed them to develop strategies to use their new technology effectively (like Germany's involvement in the Spanish Civil War).

Humanity didn't have anyone to coach them in developing their technology until after the first contact war, they also didn't have anyone to war against so that they could effectively practice their strategies and tactics. Yet once they got attacked by the Turians they were able to hold their own against the finest military in the galaxy in what objectively shouldhave been an inordinately one-sided conflict.

The problem with the Israel analogy is similar in that Israel had important foreign backers pretty much since it's inception which gave it a number of decisive advantages over it's neighbours. 

I wonder if that's actually a problem. Remember what Nilhus said to Shepard in the very beginning of Mass Effect 1? Something along the lines of "Every specie's current knowledge of spacetravel is based upon Prothean technology." (1:13 -1:27).

I'm not so sure the Japanese or Israelis were coached either. Through simply having access to information on technology through trade and the exchanging of ideas, they were both able to adopt this technology and then adapt it to their own use on their own. The Soviets backed the Arab countries that came into conflict with the Israelis by supplying them tanks, money, planes, etc... but they still weren't able to win.

Modifié par Weskerr, 09 août 2011 - 07:21 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

@weskerr
wasnt that before we knew relays etc were reaper tech?

well I guess no one really beleive in the reapers so as far as they know all the tech is based on Prothean tech.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 09 août 2011 - 07:27 .

[didymos1120]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

@weskerr
wasnt that before we knew relays etc were reaper tech?

It doesn't matter: it still means that they all learned by discovering Prothean info/relics. That they didn't realize the ultimate source of the technology is irrelevant.

[Weskerr]

didymos1120 wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

@weskerr
wasnt that before we knew relays etc were reaper tech?

It doesn't matter: it still means that they all learned by discovering Prothean info/relics. That they didn't realize the ultimate source of the technology is irrelevant.

What didymos said.

[darth_lopez]

Vengeful Nature wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

I'd also like to point out that 90% of the universe already attempts to feign real science while failing. I don't see how it's bad that this aspect does too.

As I said, you need an element of magitech to enable your space opera. However, there's a difference between a little bit of unobtainium to let us go to other worlds, and the total rape of already established biology. The best science fiction universes are the ones that have that smidgeon of a hypothetical enabler to grease the wheels of interstellar exploration, but everything else follows established science. The Mass Effect universe as establised in ME1 was one of these. This is, of course, my opinion. Some people have no trouble with all kinds of space magic. All I'm saying is that those people should know their universes for what they are: fantasy. Speaking for myself, this is not what attracted me to the Mass Effect universe.

While you do make the alotted room for this i'm gonna point it out anyway because it is the Ideal counterpoit to the "proper science/at least plausible science" argument.
Star Wars. Absolutely no hypothetical Elements. There is no scientificly plausible aspect whatsoever in star wars aside from robots, who aren't even the main focus of the films. Yet after >.> 30..40 years now? it still has a massive following it is still attracting followers as a sci-fi and is still among the worlds most popular science fictions. It to is a Space Opera one that Relies heavily on Magics. Furhtermore when It did try to bring any biology into explaining a primary concept, just as vital to star wars as humans are to mass effect, almost all fans reacted negatively. No one wanted midichlorians in that sense of them.(which thanks to the EU they are slightly different than described in the movies ^^)

Mass Effect at no point attempts to draw a real bridge between itself and real science in anygame, Ships are flying around at FTL mass is being reduced, and there is a magical element that powers everything including jedi powers. Add to that You inherit the Memories of a dead ancient race, instantly learn a language that has not been spoken in millenia. The only thing mass effect really tries to use is the impracticality of lasers for general combat(whoops thrown out the window in ME 3 lets also add in magically lethal holograms too), and the idea that we may experience climate change as a result of our craziness, then they totally shift focus away from the familiar immediately into the unfamiliar. While i was initially interested in ME because it "looked" technologically plausible but the reality of the situation is that very very few things in the universe are actually plausible or scientifically believable. Then again when 50% of the tech in the game involves EEZO an element that is magical with absolutely no other  explanation than that it is magical, along with an awkward application of Dark Matter or Dark Energy in comparisson to what i thought was the established fact it makes up like what was the statistic 64% or higher of the known universe?, it's kinda hard to convince that now because they mention biology it should some how follow established scientific ideas.

As you say people should know their universes for what they are, well mass effect is a Science Fiction Space Opera. With a key emphasis on Science Fiction.

[TheZyzyva]

 Ok, for things that people are getting hung up on, the genetic diversity and fighting off the Turians, I think I might be able to help bring these into the realm of plausibility.

First, the Turians: There is a historical precedence of lesser developed peoples succesfully fending off much more advanced attackers, but often times only for a limited time. The most recent example may also be the one that best relates to the FCW, and that would be when the U.S. started their forray into the Middle East after 9/11. The U.S. millitary, paralleld here to the Turians, pretty much thought they could waltz right on in with a tiny portion of their army and take care of business in a week. They underestimated the enemy forces, thinking that they would be ill-equipped and unprepared. Instead they were well armed and ready for the attack, fending them off in quite a one-sided battle. What the U.S. did after that is well known. The Turians though were stopped before they could bomb the ever-loving **** out of the entire human race.

As for genetics and the human diversity, I think we are confused as to what is actually meant. Given from what Mordin says during his mission, it isn't the diversity of the human species, but rather the genetic diversity of an individuals personal genome. Now, stick with me here, it's about to get sciency, in DNA, something like 98% of the actual genetic code is wasted space and unused information. That's a lot of extra code that just sits there waiting for a mutation to come along and open the door to allow a ****storm of defects. That's why they're testing on humans in Mordins mission, because of the number of unexpected mutations that could occur. Since they've already established that different kinds of genetic coding in the universe, as in the Turians, I can accept that perhaps the other species do not have all the genetic junk that humans have, and that is what gets referenced by human diversity.

Hope that helps.

[Goneaviking]

Weskerr wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...


The problem with the Japanese analogy is in your post: they adopted western technology and science.

They were able to buy the technology and gain direct instruction in it's use and appropriate background information which allowed them to pretty much catch up. They were also involved in a massive military campaign which allowed them to develop strategies to use their new technology effectively (like Germany's involvement in the Spanish Civil War).

Humanity didn't have anyone to coach them in developing their technology until after the first contact war, they also didn't have anyone to war against so that they could effectively practice their strategies and tactics. Yet once they got attacked by the Turians they were able to hold their own against the finest military in the galaxy in what objectively shouldhave been an inordinately one-sided conflict.

The problem with the Israel analogy is similar in that Israel had important foreign backers pretty much since it's inception which gave it a number of decisive advantages over it's neighbours. 

I wonder if that's actually a problem. Remember what Nilhus said to Shepard in the very beginning of Mass Effect 1? Something along the lines of "Every specie's current knowledge of spacetravel is based upon Prothean technology." (1:13 -1:27).

I'm not so sure the Japanese or Israelis were coached either. Through simply having access to information on technology through trade and the exchanging of ideas, they were both able to adopt this technology and then adapt it to their own use on their own. The Soviets backed the Arab countries that came into conflict with the Israelis by supplying them tanks, money, planes, etc... but they still weren't able to win.

The Japanese were actively buying contemporary technology and were able to send people abroad to study who would then come back and bring their newfound knowledge with them. The gap between the technology they had when Perry showed up and the technology they had before they included the Americans in the war in the pacific was staggering and they'd already slapped the Czar's navy prior to the first world war. Their avenues at development included training from abroad and also an influx of new tech.

The zionist cause had been backed by the British officially at least as far back as the Balfour Declaration in 1916. They were almost entirely an immigrant population even before they were gifted with nationhood by the Europeans in the 40s through the UN. That meant they had all of the knowledge of all the people who migrated prior to the creation of Israel and all of the people who immigrated afterwards and that included some very well educated people.

They also benefitted from the imperial powers divide and rule strategy in the area. Have a look at a map and count the number of Arab countries... they were pretty much all created from mandates by the British and French with the intention of keeping them weak, the Palestinians had also been disarmed which further weakened. The early advantages that made the emerging Israeli nation the strongest in the region were primarily those that guaranteed the same institutional weakness that their enemies still have today.

[Aumata]

In Exile wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...
I would love to play a game where humans were the 'scum' species of the universe, incapable of technology or higher thought processes that some of the other species possess.

Or perhaps a dark fantasy world where humans were almost extinct, and a slave class to a mighty elven empire. Without portraying the elves as evil at all, or the plot involving a pathetic cliched 'rise up against the elves' storyline.

Most people, simply put, wouldn't go for a game that isn't empowering. That's one of the major criticisms of DA2 (for example). People want to be heroes. People want to be praised. No one wants to be treated like garbage. 

That was because bioware said your character was the most important person in the history of Dragon Age and there was nothing to show for it.  If this was set in a cose enviroment then people wouldn't complain about that part, but the rest of the game.

[darth_lopez]

TheZyzyva wrote...

 Ok, for things that people are getting hung up on, the genetic diversity and fighting off the Turians, I think I might be able to help bring these into the realm of plausibility.

First, the Turians: There is a historical precedence of lesser developed peoples succesfully fending off much more advanced attackers, but often times only for a limited time. The most recent example may also be the one that best relates to the FCW, and that would be when the U.S. started their forray into the Middle East after 9/11. The U.S. millitary, paralleld here to the Turians, pretty much thought they could waltz right on in with a tiny portion of their army and take care of business in a week. They underestimated the enemy forces, thinking that they would be ill-equipped and unprepared. Instead they were well armed and ready for the attack, fending them off in quite a one-sided battle. What the U.S. did after that is well known. The Turians though were stopped before they could bomb the ever-loving **** out of the entire human race.

As for genetics and the human diversity, I think we are confused as to what is actually meant. Given from what Mordin says during his mission, it isn't the diversity of the human species, but rather the genetic diversity of an individuals personal genome. Now, stick with me here, it's about to get sciency, in DNA, something like 98% of the actual genetic code is wasted space and unused information. That's a lot of extra code that just sits there waiting for a mutation to come along and open the door to allow a ****storm of defects. That's why they're testing on humans in Mordins mission, because of the number of unexpected mutations that could occur. Since they've already established that different kinds of genetic coding in the universe, as in the Turians, I can accept that perhaps the other species do not have all the genetic junk that humans have, and that is what gets referenced by human diversity.

Hope that helps.

Interesting comparisson in point one but understood and very clever sir. and on the generics i can accept that. And in Both these cases Humanity would not be particularly special just different than the others, and the underdog in a war against the turians.

[darth_lopez]

Aumata wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...
I would love to play a game where humans were the 'scum' species of the universe, incapable of technology or higher thought processes that some of the other species possess.

Or perhaps a dark fantasy world where humans were almost extinct, and a slave class to a mighty elven empire. Without portraying the elves as evil at all, or the plot involving a pathetic cliched 'rise up against the elves' storyline.

Most people, simply put, wouldn't go for a game that isn't empowering. That's one of the major criticisms of DA2 (for example). People want to be heroes. People want to be praised. No one wants to be treated like garbage. 

That was because bioware said your character was the most important person in the history of Dragon Age and there was nothing to show for it.  If this was set in a cose enviroment then people wouldn't complain about that part, but the rest of the game.

Not to intrude on valid points, but we're already playing the Forum Rules close to the chest with the real life political comparrisons, as appropriate valuable and necessary as they may be, Lets not chance intervention by expanding this(Conversation on DA 2 specifically) further >.> please <.<

Modifié par darth_lopez, 09 août 2011 - 11:06 .

[eye basher]

Humans aren't special adversity makes us special while eveyone else i busy pissing there pant's where out there trying to find a way to win that's who we are humans as a whole don't like to lose.

[TheZyzyva]

Again though, on everything as a whole, what upsets me isn't that humans are "special" but that the storyline focuses on humans as key plot points. I stand by my earlier post that that is simply lazy writing because it is inherently interesting to us. It upsets me that the easy way was taken when so much more could have been done.

Off topic but related, Stan Lee said he made the Iron Man character as a challenge to himself. He wanted to make his fans love something fictional that in real life they hate. So the arms broker, war fueler, iconic businessman Tony Stark was born. Bioware made us love something fictional that we love in real life, sticking it to authority and being awesome.

I still love ME, and I know the universe is hardly over, but I just hope that whatever follows takes a more "galactic" view as opposed to a human one. I hope all that makes sense.

[darth_lopez]

I do indeed see where you are coming from there Zyzyva, and i can see what would be appealing about that to some degree.

[Weskerr]

Goneaviking wrote...

The Japanese were actively buying contemporary technology and were able to send people abroad to study who would then come back and bring their newfound knowledge with them. The gap between the technology they had when Perry showed up and the technology they had before they included the Americans in the war in the pacific was staggering and they'd already slapped the Czar's navy prior to the first world war. Their avenues at development included training from abroad and also an influx of new tech.

You're right that the Japanese had an advantage over humanity in the Mass Effect story in that they had the chance to learn more about the technology from the people who created it while humanity could not learn more about the technology they discovered on Mars from the people (Protheans) who left it there. So what? Does this somehow preclude them (humanity) from understanding how it works and so how to build it themselves? Apparently not, because they were able to replicate the mass effect technology without sending anyone to Prothean engineering schools to learn more about it first. A real-world equivalent is Einstein discovering the photoeletric effect or that gravity isn't about magically pulling on objects but pushing them due to their warping the fabric of spacetime with their mass. The only thing that led him to these discoveries was his own reasoning with the knowledge he had available to him.

Goneaviking wrote...
The zionist cause had been backed by the British officially at least as far back as the Balfour Declaration in 1916. They were almost entirely an immigrant population even before they were gifted with nationhood by the Europeans in the 40s through the UN. That meant they had all of the knowledge of all the people who migrated prior to the creation of Israel and all of the people who immigrated afterwards and that included some very well educated people.

Fair point. Still, developing a capable millitary in such a short amount of time is nothing less than remarkable, especially for a people who hadn't been in control of their own country for over 2000 years.

Goneaviking wrote...
They also benefitted from the imperial powers divide and rule strategy in the area. Have a look at a map and count the number of Arab countries... they were pretty much all created from mandates by the British and French with the intention of keeping them weak, the Palestinians had also been disarmed which further weakened. The early advantages that made the emerging Israeli nation the strongest in the region were primarily those that guaranteed the same institutional weakness that their enemies still have today.

The Jews gaining statehood was hardly as easy as you make it
seem. The primary reason that the UN recognized Israel as an independent
Jewish state was because of the Holocaust - after the National Socialist German Worker's
Party in Germany nearly wiped out all of Euorpean jewery in WWII (6 million of the total 9 million were exterminated) they
believed that the best way from preventing genocide on such a massive
scale from happening again was for the victims to be in control of their
own government and country. Also, the Jews had to fight for every inch of ground they now possess even after they were "gifted with nationhood" because the surrounding Arab states (many of them themselves just becoming independent nations from European imperial rule) refused to acknowledge the UN's acknowledgement of the independent state of Israel. This was demonstrated in the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. I hardly believe that being surrounded and outnumbered by people who want to kill you is an advantage.

I still think Israel is a valid example of people being able to adapt very quickly to anything that's thrown their way. This is what makes humanity in Mass Effect special. Their adaptability. I'd actually say that this is also a trait of the Salarians.

[ubermensch007]

didymos1120 wrote...

ubermensch007 wrote...

And it takes place with a character who isn't even given a proper name (I think)

Kalara Tomi.

Thanks...

Another alien race who I believe supasses humanity in a certain  field (and perhaps all other races as well) is the:

Quarians of the Migrant Fleet: In regards to "Space- Combat" Not only do they have the largest fleet in the known galaxy; but seeing as how they can't really afford to have a fight be decided with ground troops.You know that that means that they have over the centuries honed their skills at space combat, far more so than any other race.Because there lives depend on being the best at that in order to compensate for their other vulnurablities.

(It's kind of like how Turians don't have lips -- so kissing is not a part of foreplay for them.But I bet that they're really good at all the other stuff! )

I feel as though the Quarians (above all other races) shall be revealed to be a 'Great Sleeping Giant' that is awakened in Mass Effect 3

Modifié par ubermensch007, 10 août 2011 - 04:36 .

[In Exile]

Aumata wrote...
That was because bioware said your character was the most important person in the history of Dragon Age and there was nothing to show for it.  If this was set in a cose enviroment then people wouldn't complain about that part, but the rest of the game.

You think people would play a game where they lose everything dear to them, where they see their loved ones die, and when the game ends in inevitable failure, with absolutely no hope for any kind of victory? Horror fans might, but even horror games have happy endings, of sorts. 

[Iakus]

 I haven't read through all the pages in this so I'm not sure if this was addressed, but...

It seems to me that people aren't saying they don't want particular humans like Shepard to be special.  What they don't want is humans to be special just because they're humans.

To expand:  Shepard was built form the ground up to to be an exceptional individual.   the preservice record/psychological profille demonstrates He's a survivor who's overcome long odds in the past.  We're told, and see from the beacon, that Shep has a strong will and a sense of determination.  Toss in the whole N7 thing and Spectreship and we have an exceptional, even unique individual.  Even without the cybernetics of ME2.

 But none of this is because Shepard is human, but because Shepard is Shepard.  Now we have all this "human DNA is special" stuff that suddenly makes being special...not so special.