403 réponses à ce sujet

[ubermensch007]

Someone with Mass wrote... Humanity also gets a Spectre with their second attempt without barely
trying. It just feels so undramatic when they can get anything they want
and are getting away with almost anything.

Humanity may have "gotten a Spectre with their second attempt" but its not like that happened over night.I've read Mass Effect: Revelation.And it really gives you the sense of how hard that fight for a human Spectre was.What with it being like 18 YEARS LATER when  Commander Shepard finally becomes the first human Spectre.


What bothers me though with how it seems like BioWare is turning the Mass Effect Saga into a human centric story instead of a inter species centered story.Is that it reminds me of what happened with NBC's Heroes. A series that started out with superpowered human beings from all over the planet.This is how the cast looked in the "1st Season" (and BEST season)



But by the last season the cast looked like they were plucked from the 1950's "Whites Only" DCComics <_< Or it is as though the first draft of The X-Men:



Was prefered over the much improved - "Second" Draft:



It's not only that though... All of a sudden the Pertrelli Family became the major focus point of the show.Like the Mashima Clan in Tekken.When what was originally promised was so much more.

I prefer the atmosphere and take the Cerberus Daily News Reports have on the Mass Effect Universe over what BioWare seems to be doing with the games and books.The CDN is how Mass Effect should be.There are heroes and villians, people just trying to make a living and provide for their family, and everything else under the sun...

What really made me like ME, story wise. Was how just by talking to the Avina's on the Citadel and reading the Codex.It was clear that these alien races have been fully capable of handling their own buisness, long before the human race ever even invented combustion engines.They didn't need some "human savior" to defeat the Rachni or subdue the Krogan.And this tradition of aliens "I got this" attitude is continued in the CDN.With how the Turians deal with the  separatist who used an FTL Plotter as a weapon of mass destruction on Taetrus.

I love Commander Shepard, but the way that BioWare is selling ME 3; like all that matters is the decisions that "one" human makes in this vast and highly complex inter galactic civilization.Is just...
Come on.Give me a break <_<

Modifié par ubermensch007, 12 septembre 2011 - 01:44 .

[Zakatak757]

I think ME is doing it in a less insulting way then say, I dunno, Green Lantern for whoever had the misfortune of seeing that movie.

Basically, in ME:
1. humans are much more diverse then other races, acceptable
2. human technology jumps quicker then any other (enter space in 1961, become spacefaring in under 200 years), odd that no other race has the same "push" as we do
3. humans are annoyingly curious and pushy, yet we somehow gain seemingly 1/4th of the galaxy in 40 years, when we aren't the only race with this quality

[didymos1120]

ubermensch007 wrote...

What bothers me though with how it seems like BioWare is turning the Mass Effect Saga into a human centric story instead of a inter species centered story.

It has ALWAYS been a human-centric story. I don't know how people get this idea that it somehow wasn't, and that it wasn't intended to be from the very beginning. 

[Zakatak757]

Turians are the biggest military power, less fractious and more socially cohesive, and more physically robust.

Err, that is debatable.

I think humans, besides Krogan/Yahg/Elcor, are the strongest race in terms of muscle. Certainly more so then Salarians/Asari/Turians anyway. We were born from apes, apes are strong.

[Nashiktal]

Zakatak757 wrote...

Turians are the biggest military power, less fractious and more socially cohesive, and more physically robust.

Err, that is debatable.

I think humans, besides Krogan/Yahg/Elcor, are the strongest race in terms of muscle. Certainly more so then Salarians/Asari/Turians anyway. We were born from apes, apes are strong.

And I absolutely hate that. Humans are somehow stronger than three well established intergalactic empires? In three decades? MADNESS.

The attack on the citadel isn't even that great of an excuse. The council races fleet was spread all over the place guarding relays.

Le sigh.

Edit: Ah sorry, thought you meant fleet wise, not biologically.

In that case, Turians are actually stronger than humans physcially according to fluff.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 12 septembre 2011 - 02:37 .

[Kmead15]

Nashiktal wrote...

Zakatak757 wrote...

Turians are the biggest military power, less fractious and more socially cohesive, and more physically robust.

Err, that is debatable.

I think humans, besides Krogan/Yahg/Elcor, are the strongest race in terms of muscle. Certainly more so then Salarians/Asari/Turians anyway. We were born from apes, apes are strong.

And I absolutely hate that. Humans are somehow stronger than three well established intergalactic empires? In three decades? MADNESS.

The attack on the citadel isn't even that great of an excuse. The council races fleet was spread all over the place guarding relays.

Le sigh.

Edit: Ah sorry, thought you meant fleet wise, not biologically.

In that case, Turians are actually stronger than humans physcially according to fluff.

I think he means in terms of pure physical strength.

Edit: Darn you and your edits! You even added in the point about Turians being stronger that I'd considered mentioning. Now I have nothing to say!

Modifié par Kmead15, 12 septembre 2011 - 02:39 .

[Quething]

Zakatak757 wrote...

Basically, in ME:
1. humans are much more diverse then other races, acceptable

Acceptable? This is actually the most ludicrous thing in the series. There's more genetic diversity between two chimpanzees living in the same tree (so, like, the same family) than between any two humans anywhere on the planet.

"Diverse." We are anything but.

[Zu Long]

Meh. Humans ARE special. Like the man says:

"We poison our air and water to weed out the weak. We set off fission bombs in our only biosphere! We nailed our God to a stick! DON'T F*** WITH THE HUMAN RACE!"

[Medhia Nox]

Human-centrism - shocker. It's simply projection - if the human race is special, then "I'm" special.

Which - of course, simply isn't true. There's nothing inherently special about any single person being alive. But - human beings being the egotistical creatures that they are - they sure like to delude themselves.

Bioware is smart - they feed the addiction to the self.

[didymos1120]

Quething wrote...

Acceptable? This is actually the most ludicrous thing in the series. There's more genetic diversity between two chimpanzees living in the same tree (so, like, the same family) than between any two humans anywhere on the planet.

"Diverse." We are anything but.

And people never seem to pay attention to the fact that it's never said that humans are more genetically diverse in some absolute sense, but only relative to the other spacefaring races.  Which is actually quite consistent with the lore:

Asari: Use a form of asexual reproduction.  Yes, they meld, but it only partially alters one copy of the mother's genes, leaving the other unchanged, and there is no gene-mixing whatsoever going on outside of each independent lineage.

Krogan: Have been subjected to a massive, imposed genetic bottleneck thanks to the genophage, have continued to suffer a high rate of male attrition per Wrex in ME1, and were subject to very high casualties before that in both the Rachni Wars and the Krogan Rebellions.  Not to mention, they bottlenecked themselves by nuking the holy hell out of Tuchanka before being discovered by the wider galaxy.

Salarians:  90% of the species is male, and their access to breeding opportunities is highly regulated and restricted.  Most of the genetic variation in any given generation is being thrown out. Unless they have a ridiculously high mutation rate, that'll add up (or rather "minus down").

Quarians: most of species was killed by the geth ~300 years ago. Bye-bye diversity. Their numbers are also heavily constrained due to their living aboard the Migrant Fleet.  Their immune-system issues also has to have exacted a toll over the years as well.

Turians: evolved on a high-solar-radiation world.  As a result, they're far less susceptible to low-level radiation, which is a major source of genetic variation. 

Drell: most of the species is dead due to environmental collapse. Massive genetic bottleneck there.  They've also suffered a lot of subsequent casualties due to being ill-adapted to life on Kahje. 

Hanar: evolved on a cloud-covered world and are a naturally ocean-dwelling species.  Hell of a radiation filter right there.

Volus: evolved on a world that's rather far from its star and has a thick atmosphere. Radiation filter again (though, admittedly, we don't have a good idea what their biochemistry is actually like. Their mechanism for inheritance could be fairly radically different from other species).

Vorcha: due to a fluke of their evolution, they've become genetically stagnant. Not that the Reapers would have been interested anyway.  They're only technically "spacefaring".

That leaves only the elcor and batarians out of the known spacefaring species without any readily apparent reasons for having low genetic diversity relative to humans, though it's possible that with the elcor, their extremely tough, thick hides have played a role. And also, for most species, I haven't considered whether any non-environmental factors may have had a long-term impact on the genetic makeup of their populations.

ETA:  Oh, I forgot to allow for the possibility of the rachni being around.  Well, I should think the reason for their low diversity would be pretty obvious.

Modifié par didymos1120, 12 septembre 2011 - 03:37 .

[In Exile]

Quething wrote...
Acceptable? This is actually the most ludicrous thing in the series. There's more genetic diversity between two chimpanzees living in the same tree (so, like, the same family) than between any two humans anywhere on the planet.

"Diverse." We are anything but.

This is ridiculous. It's by far the most nonsensical complaint here. 

"Diverse" is a relative measure. You're diverse relative to something. The absolute level of genetic diversity in humans doesn't matter, because other species could still be less diverse!. 

Like cheetas. They're inbred like hell. We're more diverse than they are. Same thing could apply to the turians, asari and salarians. And krogan, at that. Nothing particularly incredible about this. 

edit:

Damn it, got ninja'd. 

Modifié par In Exile, 12 septembre 2011 - 03:31 .

[Luigitornado]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Lazy writing is unacceptable. Following the age old trope of "humans be speshul coz they be speshul herpyderp" is old, boring, and quite frankly, insulting.

If we were the only race in the galaxy, fair enough, but in a multi-raced adventure like ME, it would be nice for someone else to hold the trump card occasionally.

Not lazy writing.

[Medhia Nox]

@Luigitornado - I disagree with you, but only because I equate "common" with a sort of laziness.

It is also clever - again, human-centrism feeds the ego. Bioware would be a fool to stop writing stories like this - because an audience with more discerning tastes will 'settle' - while dullards will rejoice.

[Quething]

Cheetahs don't have a centuries-old spacefaring empire.

Look, y'all, it's a dumb thing to hang a plotline on. It's like if there was some mission where there was a twenty-year-old arthritic salarian and a preteen quarian with a broken arm in a room and the dialog was all "we've got to take the salarian, because he's so strong!"

Sure, relative to the quarian, it might even be true. It's still going to sound utterly stupid every time you call him "strong." Because he's not. Not under any frame of reference that accounts for, oh, I don't know, every other potential sentient and non-sentient species in the history of the galaxy.

Edit: And let's be clear here, that is the comparison. It's not "to other sentient species." Mordin repeatedly calls humanity genetically diverse, full stop. Unnecessary to give us mutations, because diverse. Better than varren, because diverse. Medical questions about humans and only humans are answered with the absolute statement "diverse." From a scientist who has every reason to have experience with thousands of other species, many of whom will inevitably be actually diverse.

Modifié par Quething, 12 septembre 2011 - 03:45 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Quething - the Cheetah Consortium of Purrrannia takes issue with your erroneous claims.

[Gatt9]

didymos1120 wrote...

ubermensch007 wrote...

What bothers me though with how it seems like BioWare is turning the Mass Effect Saga into a human centric story instead of a inter species centered story.

It has ALWAYS been a human-centric story. I don't know how people get this idea that it somehow wasn't, and that it wasn't intended to be from the very beginning. 

Well,  the problem is that the story goes to very great lengths to detail how much more advanced everyone else is in comparison to Humanity.  Asari's are Biotic gods in comparison,  Quarian's created a sentient robotic race,  Turians have much more advanced weaponry,  and the humans are the babies of the galaxy.

But for some odd reason the Reapers assault earth first?  Take out the weakest race and let the other,  stronger,  ones have time to coordinate a response that'll likely cause tremendous damage?

It really is pretty nonsensical in context with the details they put in the previous entries.

[Luigitornado]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Luigitornado - I disagree with you, but only because I equate "common" with a sort of laziness.

It is also clever - again, human-centrism feeds the ego. Bioware would be a fool to stop writing stories like this - because an audience with more discerning tastes will 'settle' - while dullards will rejoice.

I see it differently. Bioware has said from the beginning that Mass Effect was the suppose love letter to 80s Scifi movies, for that they succeeded. Sure it might be a little cliched, but what the hell isn't these days?

And to think this is a video game lol. We don't get too many video games like Mass Effect, so I can live with a few cliches if it means I get to play an awesome game.

Maybe in a future Mass Effect game we can play as a new race entering the universe and fighting off human-overlords.

[Dave of Canada]

Krogan are genophaged.
Vorcha can't evolve anymore.
Asari don't have much diversity genetically.
Salarians are extremely short-lived.
Geth are artificial.
Quarians have a weak immune system and are a broken species.
Drell are near extinction.
Turians are more warmongering than humanity and their entire society is essentially built around it.

Compared to everybody else, we're special.

[Xilizhra]

Maybe in a future Mass Effect game we can play as a new race entering the universe and fighting off human-overlords.

Human overlords? Hah. Not with my own Shepard in charge...

[Luigitornado]

Gatt9 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

ubermensch007 wrote...

What bothers me though with how it seems like BioWare is turning the Mass Effect Saga into a human centric story instead of a inter species centered story.

It has ALWAYS been a human-centric story. I don't know how people get this idea that it somehow wasn't, and that it wasn't intended to be from the very beginning. 

Well,  the problem is that the story goes to very great lengths to detail how much more advanced everyone else is in comparison to Humanity.  Asari's are Biotic gods in comparison,  Quarian's created a sentient robotic race,  Turians have much more advanced weaponry,  and the humans are the babies of the galaxy.

But for some odd reason the Reapers assault earth first?  Take out the weakest race and let the other,  stronger,  ones have time to coordinate a response that'll likely cause tremendous damage?

It really is pretty nonsensical in context with the details they put in the previous entries.

Humanity isn't the weakest race. 

See ME2 to answer the rest of your questions.

[In Exile]

Quething wrote...

Cheetahs don't have a centuries-old spacefaring empire.  

They are, however, the fastest animal on land. Their genetic bottleneck was in the ice age, so about 20,000 years ago. They're an endagered species now, but their inbreed ''super power'' is speed, not intelligence. 

It's not difficult to imagine that aliens who are super intelligent could avoid population collapse through technology.

Look, y'all, it's a dumb thing to hang a plotline on. 

ME is all one big **** you to biology. This is the least implausible one of the whole lot. 

It's like if there was some mission where there was a twenty-year-old arthritic salarian and a preteen quarian with a broken arm in a room and the dialog was all "we've got to take the salarian, because he's so strong!"

It's nothing like that at all. 

Reaper slushee apparently needs genetic diversity. All the other species really suck. The humans only kind of suck. 

Like if you're starving, and someone offers you taco bell. That's not really food humans should consume, but something is better than nothing and suddenly it tastes ''awesome'', 4 days without food later. 

Sure, relative to the quarian, it might even be true. It's still going to sound utterly stupid every time you call him "strong." Because he's not. Not under any frame of reference that accounts for, oh, I don't know, every other potential sentient species in the history of the galaxy.

Every other potentially sentient species in the galaxy is magic BS science Bioware pulled out of their ass. 

You could come up with a hundred BS science reasons for why humanity is the most diverse sentient species evar, like the high level of intelligence required for sapience can only result from dramatic interbreeding, and humanity was just the galactic fluke that hit the sweet spot between functional intelligence and not-hillbilly. 

[Luigitornado]

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe in a future Mass Effect game we can play as a new race entering the universe and fighting off human-overlords.

Human overlords? Hah. Not with my own Shepard in charge...

Your Shepard will wither and die, and humanity will take over.

[Quething]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Quething - the Cheetah Consortium of Purrrannia takes issue with your erroneous claims.

Psh, like I'm afraid to offend them. All they do is lick themselves and sleep in sunny trees.

I don't mind the whole "Humans are special" conceit in and of itself, but the loss of scale bothers me. In ME1 you save the galaxy. In ME2 you save like 3% of it. In ME3 you'll probably be saving the galaxy again, but all the promos can get their heads around is one little planet, which is even less than was at stake in ME2. Kind of odd to feel less heroic and acomplished with every new installment in the series.

Part of the problem with the "renegade=pro-human" association, maybe? If you give some players the option to create a story where aliens are at best unimportant, then you have to focus on humans in subsequent stories if you want those players to continue to care and to continue to be able to tell their stories the way they want.

[Luigitornado]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Krogan are genophaged.
Vorcha can't evolve anymore.
Asari don't have much diversity genetically.
Salarians are extremely short-lived.
Geth are artificial.
Quarians have a weak immune system and are a broken species.
Drell are near extinction.
Turians are more warmongering than humanity and their entire society is essentially built around it.

Compared to everybody else, we're special.

FTW

[In Exile]

Gatt9 wrote...
Well,  the problem is that the story goes to very great lengths to detail how much more advanced everyone else is in comparison to Humanity.  Asari's are Biotic gods in comparison,  Quarian's created a sentient robotic race,  Turians have much more advanced weaponry,  and the humans are the babies of the galaxy.

ME1 goes crazy in trying to slobber all over the knob that is Shepard and the whole spear of humanity jargon.

First, we have the SR1 that's the first major technical advancement in the galaxy in forever, and humanities are the cause. We have human economy and political power advance so far and so fast that years prior to ME1 humanity already has an embassy on the Council.

We also have humanity give turians their first military defeat ever, reverse engineer magic alien tech on mars in under a generation....

Humanity being awesome was the whole point of ME, and frankly ME2 danced around everything ME1 established that made humanity incredible to add in this genetic diversity nonsense.