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[In Exile]

Quething wrote...
I don't mind the whole "Humans are special" conceit in and of itself, but the loss of scale bothers me. In ME1 you save the galaxy. In ME2 you save like 3% of it. In ME3 you'll probably be saving the galaxy again, but all the promos can get their heads around is one little planet, which is even less than was at stake in ME2. 

You also save the galaxy in ME2, albeit moreso in the DLC. Saving that 'one little planet' in ME3, though, is totally saving more of the galaxy than you did when you stopped the ME2 reaper slushee.

Kind of odd to feel less heroic and acomplished with every new installment in the series.

Shepard did way more incredible things in ME2. Assaulting the Collector base was a far greater achievement than Ilos or fighting up to the Citadel. Which is why Harbinger assumed direct control from the start. 

Part of the problem with the "renegade=pro-human" association, maybe? If you give some players the option to create a story where aliens are at best unimportant, then you have to focus on humans in subsequent stories if you want those players to continue to care and to continue to be able to tell their stories the way they want.

Aliens were irreleant from ME1, with the paragon ending + Council ending aside. 

[Luigitornado]

In Exile wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...
Well, the problem is that the story goes to very great lengths to detail how much more advanced everyone else is in comparison to Humanity. Asari's are Biotic gods in comparison, Quarian's created a sentient robotic race, Turians have much more advanced weaponry, and the humans are the babies of the galaxy.

ME1 goes crazy in trying to slobber all over the knob that is Shepard and the whole spear of humanity jargon.

First, we have the SR1 that's the first major technical advancement in the galaxy in forever, and humanities are the cause. We have human economy and political power advance so far and so fast that years prior to ME1 humanity already has an embassy on the Council.

We also have humanity give turians their first military defeat ever, reverse engineer magic alien tech on mars in under a generation....

Humanity being awesome was the whole point of ME, and frankly ME2 danced around everything ME1 established that made humanity incredible to add in this genetic diversity nonsense.

SR1 was a collaboration between the Turians and Humans.

A cease fire was called by the Asari between the Humans and Turians.

[Quething]

In Exile wrote...

ME is all one big **** you to biology. This is the least implausible one of the whole lot.

Well, I'll spot you the first half of that. Jury's still out on whether the diversity or the allergies are worse, though.

Reaper slushee apparently needs genetic diversity. All the other species really suck. The humans only kind of suck. 

Like if you're starving, and someone offers you taco bell. That's not really food humans should consume, but something is better than nothing and suddenly it tastes ''awesome'', 4 days without food later. [...] You could come up with a hundred BS science reasons for why humanity is the most diverse sentient species evar, like the high level of intelligence required for sapience can only result from dramatic interbreeding, and humanity was just the galactic fluke that hit the sweet spot between functional intelligence and not-hillbilly.

This is a good perspective, and I'd happily run with it, if it weren't for the way that Mordin talks about human diversity like an absolute, rather than a relative, trait. It's not just "we're the most diverse sentient species and the Reapers need the most diverse" - if the game ever said that, and had said only that, I would just have assumed "lol wow, that's a low bar, sucks to be the Reapers." It's more that the game's always saying "we're diverse period, we're so varied we're perfect for medical testing, we make a great control group," (though... those are already weird things to say) and always from people who would have had experience with genuinely diverse genepools in non-sapient species.

You also save the galaxy in ME2, albeit moreso in the DLC.

Arrival, sure, but the Collector Base isn't a threat to non-humans. EDI says they're a long time from finishing the baby Reaper, and even once it is finished what's it going to do, repeat Sovereign's plan? We don't know what a baby Reaper is "born" knowing about the Reaper process and the cycle, but it doesn't seem reasonable to me to assume that it will be able to just go turn on the Citadel relay by itself the minute it wakes up. It'll need to gather resources and info the same way Sovvy did, and by the time it's done with that it'll be long past ME3 and therefore moot.

Modifié par Quething, 12 septembre 2011 - 04:02 .

[Zakatak757]

Question for Bioware, how exactly DID we get to the top so quickly? 50 years and were already up there with Salarians/Turians/Asari.

I don't mind the idea of humans being special. Considering none of us has met an alien species, we certainly could be compared to other intelligent life. We have nothing to compare to, so it's okay to assume. A human-centric storyline wouldn't work if humanity had nothing going for it. We are tactically sound, physically strong, fairly intelligent, and can build some mighty fine ships (we also invented the aircraft carrier). Acceptable traits, I think.

Alot of other movies/games/books treat humans as special because of their "humanity". Seriously. In comparison to ME, that is a slap in face.

[In Exile]

Luigitornado wrote...
SR1 was a collaboration between the Turians and Humans.

The SR1 was supposed to be a driving project between the alliance engineers + turian funding, with some of their design incorporated. 

It's just like with us using fighters. 

Turians get a lot more respect & hype in ME2, where they suddenly stop smoking exhaust fumes and do useful things like reverse engineer the thanix. 

A cease fire was called by the Asari between the Humans and Turians.

No, we actually beat a turian fleet over Shanxi. That was a huge deal. Nothing like that ever happened with the turians, even on that scale. They had literally never lost one battle after the krogan. It's all in the codex. 

Well, I'll spot you the first half of that. Jury's still out on whether the diversity or the allergies are worse, though. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

Having studied immunology... no. Just... no. Antibiotics can't do that. Evolution doesn't work that way at all. Not even all the junk DNA in the world could collapse the quarians immune system in that way. 

Quething wrote...
This is a good perspective, and I'd happily run with it, if it 
weren't for the way that Mordin talks about human diversity like an 
absolute, rather than a relative, trait. It's not just "we're the most diverse sentient species and the Reapers need the most diverse" - if the game ever said that, and had said only that, I would just have assumed "lol wow, that's a low bar, sucks to be the Reapers." It's more that the game's always saying "we're diverse period, we're so varied we're perfect for medical testing, we make a great control group," (though... those are already weird things to say) and always from people who would have had experience with genuinely diverse genepools in non-sapient species.

 

Your problem is trying to think things through. Just run with it. ME hates biology. It maybe sometimes uses wikepdia, to get the words for their science-y people. The less thinking you do, the less it will hurt. 

Re: Mordin, to me it sounded like he meant relative to sapient species. He talked about the varren, too... but then we use mice, and maybe humans are just the equivalent of awesome lab mice for the other species.

 Arrival, sure, but the Collector Base isn't a threat to non-humans. EDI says they're a long time from finishing the baby Reaper, and even once it is finished what's it going to do, repeat Sovereign's plan? We don't know what a baby Reaper is "born" knowing about the Reaper process and the cycle, but it doesn't seem reasonable to me to assume that it will be able to just go turn on the Citadel relay by itself the minute it wakes up. It'll need to gather resources and info the same way Sovvy did, and by the time it's done with that it'll be long past ME3 and therefore moot.

 

Space terminator apparenetly wasn't supposed to go to the citadel; the reapers had already started going after Sovereign flopped. Shepard was just pissing in their cereal at that point. 

The Collectors were experimenting with biological weapons on Omega, though, so I was thinking more of stopping the collectors = defeating bioterrorists, essentially. 

Modifié par In Exile, 12 septembre 2011 - 04:08 .

[didymos1120]

Quething wrote...

Edit: And let's be clear here, that is the comparison. It's not "to other sentient species." Mordin repeatedly calls humanity genetically diverse, full stop.

Wrong:

Humans known to have diverse genetic background. Wider range than other sapient races. Make sense as control group.

and:

Biotic abilities, intelligence levels. Can look at random asari, krogan, make reasonable guess. Humans too variable to judge.

[didymos1120]

In Exile wrote...

Re: Mordin, to me it sounded like he meant relative to sapient species. He talked about the varren, too... but then we use mice, and maybe humans are just the equivalent of awesome lab mice for the other species.

And he never compared varren to humans genetically.  Shepard can remark that varren would make more sense as "lab rats" on his loyalty mission and he says:

Yes. Human experiments strictly high-level, concept testing. Native Tuchanka fauna likely used later, in development stages. Wise to delay use of varren until necessary. Powerful bite.

The only other notable thing he says about them in the entire game is....

Perhaps later. Trying to determine how scale-itch got onto Normandy. Sexually-transmitted disease. Only carried by varren. Implications unpleasant..

[Xilizhra]

Luigitornado wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe in a future Mass Effect game we can play as a new race entering the universe and fighting off human-overlords.

Human overlords? Hah. Not with my own Shepard in charge...

Your Shepard will wither and die, and humanity will take over.

I'll do my utmost to see that no one rises to conquer anyone else.

[SandTrout]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'll do my utmost to see that no one rises to conquer anyone else.

In order to ensure that, you must first conquer everyone else. You seek the power and authority necessary to prevent other from having too much power and authority. This in itself I can understand, even if I disagree.

However, you cannot then claim moral high-ground. You yourself are becoming the conqueror, even if not the overt overlord. If you gain control of a nation through covert subversion, back-room deals, and quiet assassination, it is still conquest. You become the puppet-master that seeks to control everyone else, so you may as well admit it.

To claim to have moral objections to any given political entity gaining dominance, and then to claim that you will prevent anyone from doing so, requiring at least as much power as the idea that you are opposed to, is hypocritical.

[Xilizhra]

Well, I doubt Shepard is the politically conquering type. I think she's more likely to try to forge as much interdependence among the Citadel and perhaps other races as possible, in the hopes that ultimately it'll be too risky for anyone to make a move on anyone else.

[SandTrout]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, I doubt Shepard is the politically conquering type. I think she's more likely to try to forge as much interdependence among the Citadel and perhaps other races as possible, in the hopes that ultimately it'll be too risky for anyone to make a move on anyone else.

Except even if it is possible, that will not prevent anything except an open war of conquest. It does nothing to prevent economic or political conquest. Any system can be worked, and someone will figure out how to work it to their advantage to the point where other nations ar marginalized.

Any true interdependence is temporary at best, because independence is a more desirable state of being. Enforced interdependence necessarily creates a stagnant society that lacks the individual will to advance, and requires some sort of overarching entity to adjust in order to prevent one group from scheming too much, resulting in some form of uber-government anyways.

The competition to gain supremacy over other species, on the other hand, produces vast amounts of advancements on the parts of all parties, even if some advance more/faster than others. Even if humans gain dominance some how, every other species will be looking for a way to leverage Humanity either to get out from underneth our authority or to gain favorable treatment.

As the dominant force, humans will necessarily seek to maintain the status-quo, so the drive to advance lessens for us, except to keep ahead of every other species, one of which will likely eventually displace our dominant status, forcing us into the more dynamic role.

[Xilizhra]

Except even if it is possible, that will not prevent anything except an open war of conquest. It does nothing to prevent economic or political conquest. Any system can be worked, and someone will figure out how to work it to their advantage to the point where other nations ar marginalized.

Well, my ideal plan involves the spread of asari culture and the eventual dissolution of single-species governments. I want the different species to stop living so separately, and unite in spirit as well as in distant politics.

As the dominant force, humans will necessarily seek to maintain the status-quo, so the drive to advance lessens for us, except to keep ahead of every other species, one of which will likely eventually displace our dominant status, forcing us into the more dynamic role.

And humans will not be dominant. I don't want anyone to become dominant, but it would be easiest for me to prevent humans from becoming so.

[SandTrout]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, my ideal plan involves the spread of asari culture and the eventual dissolution of single-species governments. I want the different species to stop living so separately, and unite in spirit as well as in distant politics.

Then you are actually proposing Asari dominance as opposed to Human dominance. If this is your stance, then loose the moral

And humans will not be dominant. I don't want anyone to become dominant, but it would be easiest for me to prevent humans from becoming so.

I think you misunderstood my intent with that paragraph. I do want the possibility of human dominance to remain so that we can struggle to achieve it, other can struggle to take it from us, and then we can struggle to get it back. The best way to prevent single-species dominance is to allow every species to attempt to achieve it.

[Xilizhra]

Then you are actually proposing Asari dominance as opposed to Human dominance. If this is your stance, then loose the moral

I don't want them to achieve political or economic dominance, just increase the popularity of asari culture.

I think you misunderstood my intent with that paragraph. I do want the possibility of human dominance to remain so that we can struggle to achieve it, other can struggle to take it from us, and then we can struggle to get it back. The best way to prevent single-species dominance is to allow every species to attempt to achieve it.

Maybe if it must be that way temporarily, but I hate the constant struggle. It may lead to advances, but it adds up to so much wasted effort. I want to see sapient beings truly united, focused on the betterment of all and leaving petty rivalries behind.

[marstor05]

you cant have order on its own. there must also be chaos to ensure balance. if the reapers are defeated then there will still be wars. the duration of this battle will be a lot longer than just seeing the last reaper cack it.

[Sisterofshane]

Xilizhra wrote...

Then you are actually proposing Asari dominance as opposed to Human dominance. If this is your stance, then loose the moral

I don't want them to achieve political or economic dominance, just increase the popularity of asari culture.

I think you misunderstood my intent with that paragraph. I do want the possibility of human dominance to remain so that we can struggle to achieve it, other can struggle to take it from us, and then we can struggle to get it back. The best way to prevent single-species dominance is to allow every species to attempt to achieve it.

Maybe if it must be that way temporarily, but I hate the constant struggle. It may lead to advances, but it adds up to so much wasted effort. I want to see sapient beings truly united, focused on the betterment of all and leaving petty rivalries behind.

I really don't see this happening.  To get rid of competition, you either have to get rid of scarcity of resources or the "desire" to acquire resources.  And once this occurs, I think that everything will stagnate.  Competition means growth, as individuals and as species.

[SandTrout]

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe if it must be that way temporarily, but I hate the constant struggle. It may lead to advances, but it adds up to so much wasted effort. I want to see sapient beings truly united, focused on the betterment of all and leaving petty rivalries behind.

Simply put, that is not going to happen.

In depth: Without some sort of struggle toward and end, advancement necessarily stagnates. You say that conflict is 'wasted effort', but produces results. Lets say only 5% of effort in a conflict produces some sort of advancement. I would point out that without conflict, there is not need for results, meaning that any effort to maintain such a status quo is going to result in less than 1% of all effort producing and advancement.

While I acknowledge that a society that could actually produce advancements with a large % of its efforts w/o some sort of conflict would be a magnificent thing, it is simply in opposition of every known behavior of naturally occurring species. Your best bet would be with a manufactured species such as the Geth, which have been working in isolation toward their mega-construct independent of any major conflict. However, once that goal is achieved, they will likely plateau and stagnate unless they discover some new sort of goal to work towards.

[Azbeszt]

SandTrout wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe if it must be that way temporarily, but I hate the constant struggle. It may lead to advances, but it adds up to so much wasted effort. I want to see sapient beings truly united, focused on the betterment of all and leaving petty rivalries behind.

Simply put, that is not going to happen.

In depth: Without some sort of struggle toward and end, advancement necessarily stagnates. You say that conflict is 'wasted effort', but produces results. Lets say only 5% of effort in a conflict produces some sort of advancement. I would point out that without conflict, there is not need for results, meaning that any effort to maintain such a status quo is going to result in less than 1% of all effort producing and advancement.

While I acknowledge that a society that could actually produce advancements with a large % of its efforts w/o some sort of conflict would be a magnificent thing, it is simply in opposition of every known behavior of naturally occurring species. Your best bet would be with a manufactured species such as the Geth, which have been working in isolation toward their mega-construct independent of any major conflict. However, once that goal is achieved, they will likely plateau and stagnate unless they discover some new sort of goal to work towards.

I think the geth will simply start a technological advance, or start studying organics after the sphere is complete.

[SandTrout]

Azbeszt wrote...

I think the geth will simply start a technological advance, or start studying organics after the sphere is complete.

Toward what end, though? The Geth have something to gain with their mega-construct because they opperate better with more networked runtimes. Their programing inhernently causes them to seek that sort of networked existance. They do not, however, have an inherent desire to advance their technology for its own sake.

Just like organic species, they still require some sort of goal to work towards. With organics, survival and reproduction are the primary motivators, which create their own conflicts as populations compete over increasingly scarce resources.

With Geth, the primary motivator is to network. Once they achieve 100% networked status, they have achieved their finite goal, and it is a goal that does not create its own conflict.

[Warlocomotf]

SandTrout wrote...

Toward what end, though? The Geth have something to gain with their mega-construct because they opperate better with more networked runtimes. Their programing inhernently causes them to seek that sort of networked existance. They do not, however, have an inherent desire to advance their technology for its own sake.

Just like organic species, they still require some sort of goal to work towards. With organics, survival and reproduction are the primary motivators, which create their own conflicts as populations compete over increasingly scarce resources.

With Geth, the primary motivator is to network. Once they achieve 100% networked status, they have achieved their finite goal, and it is a goal that does not create its own conflict.

I'm not sure I agree with that. While organic species might need some 'real' challenge to work towards, I think the cold calculation of the Geth should allow them to prepare themselves against hypothetical threats or challenges. The Geth could determine for example that it would be plausible for the organic species to decide they should wipe out the Geth, and that therefor they should advance their technology.

I think AI would be much more capable of setting goals towards hypothetical adversities than organic species.

[Quething]

In Exile wrote...

Having studied immunology... no. Just... no. Antibiotics can't do that. Evolution doesn't work that way at all. Not even all the junk DNA in the world could collapse the quarians immune system in that way.

My favorite part was the equating of allergic reactions with immunodeficiency in the first place. I gave my microbiologist mother a real headache trying to justify that one. She eventually decided it could probably work if we assumed Tali was explaining things really sodding badly, but there was no saving the bubble-boy concept as a whole.

The Collectors were experimenting with biological weapons on Omega, though, so I was thinking more of stopping the collectors = defeating bioterrorists, essentially.

Oh. Fair point, hadn't thought of that.

@Didymos: Hrm. I remembered him being more (less? whichever) explicit, but I won't question you of all people on dialog. Point conceded.

Warlocomotf wrote...

I'm not sure I agree with that. While organic species might need some 'real' challenge to work towards, I think the cold calculation of the Geth should allow them to prepare themselves against hypothetical threats or challenges. The Geth could determine for example that it would be plausible for the organic species to decide they should wipe out the Geth, and that therefor they should advance their technology.

I think AI would be much more capable of setting goals towards hypothetical adversities than organic species.

If we're assuming the potential threat of organics as a motivator, though, that depends on their understanding of organics, which is clearly incomplete and frequently erroneous (if the non-Heretic faction actually seek peace, and at the moment I see no reason to doubt Legion's claim that they do, they've certainly gone about it the wrong way).

Modifié par Quething, 12 septembre 2011 - 09:18 .

[ddv.rsa]

Xilizhra wrote...

And humans will not be dominant. I don't want anyone to become dominant, but it would be easiest for me to prevent humans from becoming so.

How would you prevent humanity becoming stronger? Since first contact human influence has been steadily increasing, and that isn't likely to change any time soon.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 12 septembre 2011 - 10:01 .

[armass]

ubermensch007 wrote...

Someone with Mass wrote... Humanity also gets a Spectre with their second attempt without barely
trying. It just feels so undramatic when they can get anything they want
and are getting away with almost anything.

Humanity may have "gotten a Spectre with their second attempt" but its not like that happened over night.I've read Mass Effect: Revelation.And it really gives you the sense of how hard that fight for a human Spectre was.What with it being like 18 YEARS LATER when  Commander Shepard finally becomes the first human Spectre.


What bothers me though with how it seems like BioWare is turning the Mass Effect Saga into a human centric story instead of a inter species centered story.Is that it reminds me of what happened with NBC's Heroes. A series that started out with superpowered human beings from all over the planet.This is how the cast looked in the "1st Season" (and BEST season)



But by the last season the cast looked like they were plucked from the 1950's "Whites Only" DCComics <_< Or it is as though the first draft of The X-Men:



Was prefered over the much improved - "Second" Draft:



It's not only that though... All of a sudden the Pertrelli Family became the major focus point of the show.Like the Mashima Clan in Tekken.When what was originally promised was so much more.

I prefer the atmosphere and take the Cerberus Daily News Reports have on the Mass Effect Universe over what BioWare seems to be doing with the games and books.The CDN is how Mass Effect should be.There are heroes and villians, people just trying to make a living and provide for their family, and everything else under the sun...

What really made me like ME, story wise. Was how just by talking to the Avina's on the Citadel and reading the Codex.It was clear that these alien races have been fully capable of handling their own buisness, long before the human race ever even invented combustion engines.They didn't need some "human savior" to defeat the Rachni or subdue the Krogan.And this tradition of aliens "I got this" attitude is continued in the CDN.With how the Turians deal with the  separatist who used an FTL Plotter as a weapon of mass destruction on Taetrus.

I love Commander Shepard, but the way that BioWare is selling ME 3; like all that matters is the decisions that "one" human makes in this vast and highly complex inter galactic civilization.Is just...
Come on.Give me a break <_<

In the end it's not one human, or one species, it's the concentrated efforts of a whole galaxy to drive the reapers away. Alone what can Shepard do to them, or even the alliance? We killed one reaper, ONE, but there are hundreds now, maybe thousands, there's no way a single power in the galaxy will win against a force so massive. That is why everyone is important!

However Shepard and his/her team will be the glue that brings people in and keeps this Alliance against the reapers together. And gives hope.

Modifié par armass, 12 septembre 2011 - 10:28 .

[Luigitornado]

Quething wrote...

Zakatak757 wrote...

Basically, in ME:
1. humans are much more diverse then other races, acceptable

Acceptable? This is actually the most ludicrous thing in the series. There's more genetic diversity between two chimpanzees living in the same tree (so, like, the same family) than between any two humans anywhere on the planet.

"Diverse." We are anything but.

Maybe we're not extremley genetically diverse as a species, just more so than any other of the species.

[Luigitornado]

Gatt9 wrote...
Well, the problem is that the story goes to very great lengths to detail how much more advanced everyone else is in comparison to Humanity. Asari's are Biotic gods in comparison, Quarian's created a sentient robotic race, Turians have much more advanced weaponry, and the humans are the babies of the galaxy.

And yet technology seems pretty stagnat. No huge andvances have been noted at all. It's like when a species finds Prothean/Reaper tech they explode in their advancement...get lazy and their done. Sure there is some small seemingly tech advancments with weaponrary and stuff, but that's about it.

This would follow Bioware's story in that Reapers WANT organics to advance in a way they dictate. It makes ogranics perdictable and controlable.

It seems that most cultures are fine with this.Matriarch Aethyta's story about how she reccomended her species to make their own Mass Relays?