403 réponses à ce sujet

[didymos1120]

Wulfram wrote...

If, for example, Humans with 9 years of experience of advanced technology can out fight the Turians....

You realize the whole point of that was that we got lucky. They underestimated our military capacity.  Liberating Shanxi really was not due to our innate awesomeness.  The turians weren't gonna get caught out like that again and would have curbstomped us with ease if the Council hadn't stepped in.

[CroGamer002]

didymos1120 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

If, for example, Humans with 9 years of experience of advanced technology can out fight the Turians....

You realize the whole point of that was that we got lucky. They underestimated our military capacity.  Liberating Shanxi really was not due to our innate awesomeness.  The turians weren't gonna get caught out like that again and would have curbstomped us with ease if the Council hadn't stepped in.

Well not really, it would have been pretty tied up war.

[Clonedzero]

in ME humans are mostly just the jack of all trades, master of none. while the other races have become so interdependent on each other that they're all split into their own little specialties.

[Wulfram]

didymos1120 wrote...

That's already true in ME-land though:

Krogan are far stronger, tougher, and longer lived.
Salarians are very much smarter and arguably the most dangerous species other than the Reapers.  Good thing they're friendly.
Turians are the biggest military power, less fractious and more socially cohesive, and more physically robust.
Quarians are technological wizards without peer and ridiculously resourceful.
Asari are unmatched at diplomacy, have the longest lifespans, and everyone wants them.
So on. So forth.

The Salarians apparently aren't smart enough to come up with carriers or medigel in 2000 years, when humans can do so in 30.  The Turians get their arses kicked by humans with about as much expertise with Mass Effect technology as the Ewoks, and are put in the shade by humanity following the battle of the citadel.  The Quarians aren't resourceful enough to come up with any ideas except flying around the galaxy for centuries, destroying their immune systems.  The Asari's supposed expertise in diplomacy doesn't stop humanity running rings around them and taking over the galaxy in a blink of an eye.

[LilyasAvalon]

@Saphra Deden: Ah, now it's easier to understand where you're coming from. It's been shown though that each species tends to diverage on certain points, maybe humanity was the ability to grasp technological advances much quicker by sheer luck? A lot of our development seems to be sheer luck though if you think about it like that though....

This makes me curious about how we would fare against another sentient species in terms of technological leaps though... Damnit NASA, discover another sentient race!

[Red_warning]

Reapers want humans because they are special, that is what ME is wholly based upon. If you don't like it them maybe you should stick to start trek or what not.

[Wulfram]

didymos1120 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

If, for example, Humans with 9 years of experience of advanced technology can out fight the Turians....

You realize the whole point of that was that we got lucky. They underestimated our military capacity.  Liberating Shanxi really was not due to our innate awesomeness.  The turians weren't gonna get caught out like that again and would have curbstomped us with ease if the Council hadn't stepped in.

They'd have overwhelmed us with numbers, yes  But in the battles which took place they were clearly outfought, taking greater casualties than the humans.

[didymos1120]

Wulfram wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

That's already true in ME-land though:

Krogan are far stronger, tougher, and longer lived.
Salarians are very much smarter and arguably the most dangerous species other than the Reapers.  Good thing they're friendly.
Turians are the biggest military power, less fractious and more socially cohesive, and more physically robust.
Quarians are technological wizards without peer and ridiculously resourceful.
Asari are unmatched at diplomacy, have the longest lifespans, and everyone wants them.
So on. So forth.

The Salarians apparently aren't smart enough to come up with carriers or medigel in 2000 years, when humans can do so in 30.  The Turians get their arses kicked by humans with about as much expertise with Mass Effect technology as the Ewoks, and are put in the shade by humanity following the battle of the citadel.  The Quarians aren't resourceful enough to come up with any ideas except flying around the galaxy for centuries, destroying their immune systems.  The Asari's supposed expertise in diplomacy doesn't stop humanity running rings around them and taking over the galaxy in a blink of an eye.

Great. You've discovered that they're flawed!  Now see how many flaws and failures you can list for humans.  Go!

[Clonedzero]

Wulfram wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

That's already true in ME-land though:

Krogan are far stronger, tougher, and longer lived.
Salarians are very much smarter and arguably the most dangerous species other than the Reapers.  Good thing they're friendly.
Turians are the biggest military power, less fractious and more socially cohesive, and more physically robust.
Quarians are technological wizards without peer and ridiculously resourceful.
Asari are unmatched at diplomacy, have the longest lifespans, and everyone wants them.
So on. So forth.

The Salarians apparently aren't smart enough to come up with carriers or medigel in 2000 years, when humans can do so in 30.  The Turians get their arses kicked by humans with about as much expertise with Mass Effect technology as the Ewoks, and are put in the shade by humanity following the battle of the citadel.  The Quarians aren't resourceful enough to come up with any ideas except flying around the galaxy for centuries, destroying their immune systems.  The Asari's supposed expertise in diplomacy doesn't stop humanity running rings around them and taking over the galaxy in a blink of an eye.

inventing stuff is generally a combination of necessity and luck. half of the great scientific innovations of today and the past have been discovered by accidents, microwaves, pasturazition, anti-biotics, electricity, ect. can't really fault the salarians for that.

turians did not get their asses kicked.

the quarians are resourceful enough, they're just stubborn.

humans are an unknown, most species werent prepared to deal with them, hence why they've been so successful. asaris probably arent used to other species providing a challenge when it comes to diplomacy.

also, humans finding their role in the galaxy has been a MAJOR theme since the very beginning lol

[lovgreno]

Wulfram wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

That's already true in ME-land though:

Krogan are far stronger, tougher, and longer lived.
Salarians are very much smarter and arguably the most dangerous species other than the Reapers.  Good thing they're friendly.
Turians are the biggest military power, less fractious and more socially cohesive, and more physically robust.
Quarians are technological wizards without peer and ridiculously resourceful.
Asari are unmatched at diplomacy, have the longest lifespans, and everyone wants them.
So on. So forth.

The Salarians apparently aren't smart enough to come up with carriers or medigel in 2000 years, when humans can do so in 30.  The Turians get their arses kicked by humans with about as much expertise with Mass Effect technology as the Ewoks, and are put in the shade by humanity following the battle of the citadel.  The Quarians aren't resourceful enough to come up with any ideas except flying around the galaxy for centuries, destroying their immune systems.  The Asari's supposed expertise in diplomacy doesn't stop humanity running rings around them and taking over the galaxy in a blink of an eye.

A Mary Sue race that is best at everything is boring. To feel that you must be dominant is insecure and boring.

[Luigitornado]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Lazy writing is unacceptable. Following the age old trope of "humans be speshul coz they be speshul herpyderp" is old, boring, and quite frankly, insulting.

If we were the only race in the galaxy, fair enough, but in a multi-raced adventure like ME, it would be nice for someone else to hold the trump card occasionally.

I don't think it's lazy. Even among humans different cultures have different attitudes than each other. Amongst those attitudes aggression seems to be the defining trait among the humans presented
in Mass Effect. Not bad aggression, but aggression that leads to our advancement and quick rise to power on the Citadel.

As for why the Reapers are interested in us, as far as we know everything points to our "genetic diversity" and the fact that Sovereign was defeated by a human.

Modifié par Luigitornado, 08 août 2011 - 12:18 .

[Goneaviking]

Wulfram wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

If, for example, Humans with 9 years of experience of advanced technology can out fight the Turians....

You realize the whole point of that was that we got lucky. They underestimated our military capacity.  Liberating Shanxi really was not due to our innate awesomeness.  The turians weren't gonna get caught out like that again and would have curbstomped us with ease if the Council hadn't stepped in.

They'd have overwhelmed us with numbers, yes  But in the battles which took place they were clearly outfought, taking greater casualties than the humans.

It's worth remembering that the Turians don't even regard the First Contact War as a war, to them it was just a couple of ******-for-tat skirmishes with apparent criminals. The only battles that humans won were ones that we had the benefit of surprise.

What makes it jarring to me isn't that we were noticeably superior to them in their field of species, it was that in a handful of years we'd mastered the technology to the level that we could compete with them with their thousands of years of development.

[CroGamer002]

didymos1120 wrote...

Great. You've discovered that they're flawed!  Now see how many flaws and failures you can list for humans.  Go!

Cerberus!

[Wulfram]

didymos1120 wrote...

Great. You've discovered that they're flawed!  Now see how many flaws and failures you can list for humans.  Go!

The point isn't that they're flawed, but that they're clearly outclassed by humanity in their supposed strengths.  Humans are shown to be better scientists than the Salarians, better soldiers than the Turians and better diplomats than the Asari.

[Dean_the_Young]

darth_lopez wrote...

Alright just here me out for a bit here.

Now i'm not saying that i don't understand that 1) In 90% of all sci-fi we're the superior race no matter the circumstances or 2) that Humans are in some way shape and form already Very important in Mass Effects plot (nope no avoiding it unless you pretend ME 2 didn't happen) 

I just want to see why it is so many people think that having earth, in particular, play some important role in the story is a bad thing? (genereic sci-fi aside) Our species is being killed off systematically on our own homeworld that we're fleeing from at the start of ME 3 is it really so bad to some how link our Home World to getting a truckload and thensome of revenge on the reapers? Would it be nice if Klendagoon, Klencory etc... are involved totally. Would it be nice to see us on par with every other species (if not in a slightly worse situation)? I thought from the sounds of it we already were, being harvested for out gene goo and then exterminated while our fleets and homeworld is ravaged isn't exactly sunshine and roses. We aren't Magically fending Aliens off (ala 90% of most sci-fi) through simply being better. We are actually being wiped out, assimilated, etc... in ME 3.

I may not understand the trope entirely (as i don't closely follow tropes) But in this situation where shepard could very well end up being one of the last few humans alive We aren't prime cut super soldier yet either.

So just discuss/explain how linking Earth to a Weapon(i do mean Earth as in the Planet literally just the planet and not necessarily the species) or something that could seriously damage the reapers is a bad thing?

Even then Considering the Reapers Immensley High Interest in our species what would be wrong with linking us specifically to their doom (as the series is already set up to do. Despite this being relatively generic sci-fi if it's pulled off in an interesting way i don't see the problem.)?

It's a bad thing when it isn't justified. Which, it could have been, had the backstory been significantly rewritten. Notably, if 'pre-ME1' were a matter of a century of exploration/colonization and not decades.

There could have been a few convenient justifications for justifying a major-power Humanity in such a scale.

1) Humans are a population of galactic significance because of artificial addition of humans. Humans adopted cloning (with randomization of genes/attributes) on an interstellar level before meeting the Council. Combine this with, say, a long war, and you have a justification for a Humanity of scale and scope as attributed in game.

2) The Alliance is a population of galactic significance because of conquest/assimilation of minor alien species. Alliance would be a minor Council-state of its own (started/dominated by Humanity) before contact with the Council and the wider galaxy. Humans aren't a particularly notable species in number, but the Alliance composes a lot of minor species found in those 'sealed off' Mass Relay subchains the Council forbids everyone.  Combine a century of unrestricted colonization in those 'forbidden' regions with assimilation of minor species, and then the Alliance's encounter with the Turians becomes a matter of 'whole new continent discovered' in terms of new settled space being added to the galactic map. Extra themes to be considered would be this Alliance's non-species specific nationalism clashing with the predominant Council-space xeno-nationalism.

3) Humans are a fast-breeding species, by galactic standards. While we don't consider ourselves to breed quickly, that's because our standard is ourselves. When Krogans met everyone else, they probably thought everyone else bred slow. Besides the whole quick-thinking/adaptive whatever, Humans are notable on the galactic scene for rapid population growth: not to Krogan/Rachni levels, but add a century of pre-contact colonization and you can start believing a 'Humanity is modest-sized but particularly militarized power now, but will be much larger later.' Fits the 'rising power' theme, and also offers extra avenues for alien suspicion because various species want to limit Human growth 'before it's too late' (and fears that it may already be too late in the Renegade Council). Extra-points if the question of a Human genophage to taper off Human growth is raised as a bargain/threat.

4) The Council system includes a system of enforced low-breeding rates in order to preserve the predominance of the Asari/Salarians. A consequence of the Asari finding the Citadel First, and of Salarian culture being amiable to self-imposed breeding rates in an agreement to not out-populate their new ally, after the Rachni Wars/Krogan Rebellions the prospect of any species breeding too fast (which is to say faster than the Asari) became a matter of galactic stability. In effect, a universalized genophage system is introduced (and enforced) to keep species on par with the Asari growth rate... while also preserving the predominance of the Council. Minor species are allowed faster growth to a point, and then either willingly accept a genophage-light (accompanied by lots of carrots from the Council/Asari), or unwillingly (by the STG, no carrots, and not even being in the Terminus will spare you).  Most species growth rates have been slowed to a glacial rate to match the average Asari... who might have a few children over a millenia. Humanity's 'special' factor is that it made first contact after already becoming 'big' by galactic standards. A new crux of the ME political scene is the question of how/if the Alliance will accept a genophage light and become full members of the galactic scene, while many humans resist it. The Genophage becomes a major, major point for all species: some bear it proudly (the Turians, who prove that they would not use what they were not prepared to bear themselves), some resentfully (the Batarians), some are chained by it (the Quarians, who struggle to repopulate thanks to it), and some are being dragged down by it (the Krogan, who have the heaviest genophage that is actually driving them to extinction). An additional aspect strengthened by the genophage is the Council's near-terror for a conflict with the Terminus: though the Council-preferred breeding rates allow them greater growth (in order to replace casualties from peacekeeping/minor conflicts), the prospect of a major war with the Terminus would wreck the galaxy's balance of power, not because the Terminus would win but because afterwards the Council races would take centuries/another thousand years to simply get back to the status-quo ante population levels, let alone surpass them.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 08 août 2011 - 12:30 .

[Clonedzero]

Goneaviking wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

If, for example, Humans with 9 years of experience of advanced technology can out fight the Turians....

You realize the whole point of that was that we got lucky. They underestimated our military capacity.  Liberating Shanxi really was not due to our innate awesomeness.  The turians weren't gonna get caught out like that again and would have curbstomped us with ease if the Council hadn't stepped in.

They'd have overwhelmed us with numbers, yes  But in the battles which took place they were clearly outfought, taking greater casualties than the humans.

It's worth remembering that the Turians don't even regard the First Contact War as a war, to them it was just a couple of ******-for-tat skirmishes with apparent criminals. The only battles that humans won were ones that we had the benefit of surprise.

What makes it jarring to me isn't that we were noticeably superior to them in their field of species, it was that in a handful of years we'd mastered the technology to the level that we could compete with them with their thousands of years of development.

thats sorta  because we had all that tech handed to use and explained to us
it really doesnt take that long to incorperate a new technology. look how quickly cellphones became something that pretty much everyone has? look how quickly cars became super common? look how quickly well any significant advancement in technology was intergrated into society.

ive had an xbox 360 for what? 5 years now? im extremely familiar with how it works. my sister who's never used one before only took a couple minutes to figure out how to work it as well as i can.

for a more mass effect example, humans grasped onto mass effect technology with alarming speed. the rest of the galaxy jumped onto medi-gel with alarming speed to become the norm in medical technology accross all species. i dont get why thats so hard to believe that handing someone technology with the schematics on how to build and operate it that they'd start using it pretty quickly lol

[Goneaviking]

Clonedzero wrote...

also, humans finding their role in the galaxy has been a MAJOR theme since the very beginning lol

Humans have already got an established place in the galaxy at the beginning of the first game, it's not at the top but it's noticeably higher up the rung than a number of long-standing citadel compliant races like the Volus and Hanar.

If the games can be said to be about humans "finding their role" that role is of a clearly superior status to virtually any other race in the game. What do humans want for themselves? More. What does the game give them? More. How much do they pay for it? Considerably less than other races have paid for similar gains.

[didymos1120]

Wulfram wrote...

They'd have overwhelmed us with numbers, yes  But in the battles which took place they were clearly outfought, taking greater casualties than the humans.

I don't know why you consider "slighty higher" casualties for the turians an indicator of clear victory and that they were "clearly outfought".  It was about even....and that was only while the turians, for all intents and purposes, weren't even trying.  We were dealing with very small, light elements of their military: scouts and patrol fleets. See Revelation. A minor backwater outpost changed hands twice, and the second time only because we got the drop on them. Which, as I said, was largely a matter of luck.

[Clonedzero]

Goneaviking wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

also, humans finding their role in the galaxy has been a MAJOR theme since the very beginning lol

Humans have already got an established place in the galaxy at the beginning of the first game, it's not at the top but it's noticeably higher up the rung than a number of long-standing citadel compliant races like the Volus and Hanar.

If the games can be said to be about humans "finding their role" that role is of a clearly superior status to virtually any other race in the game. What do humans want for themselves? More. What does the game give them? More. How much do they pay for it? Considerably less than other races have paid for similar gains.

you dont have to play it if you dont like the major theme of the series

[didymos1120]

Goneaviking wrote...

It's worth remembering that the Turians don't even regard the First Contact War as a war, to them it was just a couple of ******-for-tat skirmishes with apparent criminals.

Ah, yes, "The Relay 314 Incident".  Sounds so....insignificant.

[didymos1120]

Mesina2 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Great. You've discovered that they're flawed!  Now see how many flaws and failures you can list for humans.  Go!

Cerberus!

LOL.

[Wulfram]

didymos1120 wrote...

I don't know why you consider "slighty higher" casualties for the turians an indicator of clear victory and that they were "clearly outfought".  It was about even....and that was only while the turians, for all intents and purposes, weren't even trying.  We were dealing with very small, light elements of their military: scouts and patrol fleets. See Revelation. A minor backwater outpost changed hands twice, and the second time only because we got the drop on them. Which, as I said, was largely a matter of luck.

Even with that generous spin, it still shows remarkable military ineptitude when you consider that humanity has stumbled on Mass Effect technology only 9 years ago and thus has effectively no practical experience with kinetic barriers, mass accelerator based small arms or space combat - and has never even encountered biotics.